Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Sengoku Strider wrote:
BEAMLORD wrote:I became a man today and sent the Jaquio packing for the first time. The final stage of the boss rush ain't too bad, that was my first time dealing with it. It was not a 1cc, but I can see the way - I no-missed until stage 5, and am slowly but surely ironing out the kinks in my stage 6 approach.

Edit: Shit, I almost forgot, ditto for Castlevania NES too, cleared that yesterday for the first time. An ignominious clear, it took about an hour and a half to get the best of Dracula. My arse cheeks are still burning with shame.
Two first class belt notches. Castlevania I actually somehow beat in a weekend rental back in the day. But Ninja Gaiden I & II were borrowed off friends and I could never beat either, despite countless after school hours spent on them. Including the first time I ever literally threw my controller at the TV...after stewing with the choice for a while, ultimately deciding it was the right call, and went for the yeet. I was then immediately terror-struck that I had chipped the glass (I hadn't).

One day I'll get a Famicom and go for it again. I vow that my titanium gravestone will be laser-etched with the words "Beat the original Ninja Gaiden Trilogy legit. And 1CCed the arcade game too." So that future generations crawling across the blasted black-glass surface of the post-apocalyptic Earth will know that once, there was a golden age in which men could become legends, and once again find hope.

Anyway, if you beat CV, go for Castlevania III next (I mean, sure, play II first but it's dead easy if you know how to get past the Angry Video Game Nerd parts). CV III I thought was an order of magnitude harder than the original, mainly because of how tough the Dracula battle is - and its troll-ass restart checkpoint in the Western version. Also because my friends and I were convinced that Alucard was the best partner because of his spreadshot, jump-skipping bat powers and general badassery. Little did I know he was secret hard mode.
CVIII's much more of a mixed bag than the first game. Certain routes and partner combinations can produce difficulty well beyond CV1, others a more or less comparable challenge. If you really know what you're doing, there's plenty of scope for breaking big chunks of stage via Grant/Sypha/Alucard. However approached, it's also a considerably longer game, with a couple of big, tricky stages in the final three.

Unfortunately it's also a mixed bag in quality terms, and so I leave my usual caveat to first-timers: take [up] routes at every junction past the clock tower (you only need to go up there if you want Grant and his Rockman jumps). The overland route is topographically and aesthetically far more varied than the underground, and most importantly of all, it doesn't have those godawful melty/stacky block segments. Standing around waiting on blocks is about as far from CV1's classic twitch/method action as it gets, but then, CVIII is the indulgent double album to the first game's disciplined debut. Nobody fires up the White Album raring for Wild Honey Pie or whatever other garbage they padded it out with!

The lower routes actually do have use, as a deliberately punishing second run, but for a first-timer coming in hot off CV1's bullseye pace, the long, brown, brick-obsessed run of swamp/crypt/catacomb/dungeon/gaol can be a drubbing.

Best asset of CVIII - not the far milder FC rev Akumajou Densetsu - is probably its wickedly hard second loop, one of the classic oldschool Dracula challenges. As always, the variable partner/route combo leaves quite a bit of scope to sidestep its worst, but those wanting Trad CV hell will find it in spades. Image
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BEAMLORD »

I'm actually likely to pick up the NTSC-U CV3 after payday. Its the only one of the NES originals I have no experience with whatsoever. Perusing these here R2RKMF pages, I can see it's a must.

I've spent the last couple of evenings revisiting Rondo on PCE. I've only previously completed the game with Maria, so time to give Richter his day in the sun. Or his night in the moonlight.

I cleared CV2 some years ago, with the use of a guide, and I gotta be honest, I had a roaring time! I confess that I had scant regard for the HARD SCROLLING ACTION at that time, though. Still, I enjoyed the mindless lashing and bizarre townsfolk encounters, and revelled in the broken obtuseness of it all. Visually and aurally, it was my fucking cuppa too.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by dojo_b »

Sengoku Strider wrote:I vow that my titanium gravestone will be laser-etched with the words "Beat the original Ninja Gaiden Trilogy legit. And 1CCed the arcade game too." So that future generations crawling across the blasted black-glass surface of the post-apocalyptic Earth will know that once, there was a golden age in which men could become legends, and once again find hope.
19th century: I wish to be buried among my co-religionists

late 21st: inter me with my tier-fellows as determined by a certified 1CC list (someplace where the sky is still blue, pls!)

Anyway, a NGI 1CC at least is very achievable and this thread wants to help get you across that line! IMO it's a matter of basic competence plus intimate familiarity and practice on a handful of hard rooms/encounters. While a run never seems to go exactly like clockwork, the action is pretty steerable, with a resolute no-backtracking rule (against the hated respawns) being the first big way to improve your odds.

I forced myself to train without save-states just for that authentic late-80s flavor of pain, but I suspect they could yield a 20x reduction in training time for middling players like myself.

^ God, Rondo is fucking great. The one time as an adult that I got bit hard by the charms of handheld, was buying a PSP to play it on meandering walks in the local park. Go ahead and mug me for my obsolete tech, I'm so happy right now it won't even matter.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BEAMLORD »

dojo_b wrote:no-backtracking
Yeah, I learnt that pretty fucking quick :mrgreen:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

Castlevania III really is a quality game, but I can't muster as much enthusiasm for it as I can for CV1, Rondo, X68K, or Bloodlines. Even the shortest upper route feels a bit overstuffed, without the first game's density, pacing, or particularly high-quality bosses - and that dull opening stage doesn't help matters, nor does it that basically all of the route splits lead to less fun stages. Still, there are a lot of strong levels in there, and even a slightly flabbier CV1 makes for a great experience; it's an easy recommendation if you love the original. (And also, yes, Rondo of Blood is absolutely worth playing through as Richter - complete must-play alongside the original NES game.)

Even Castlevania II is a little likable. Dull - albeit functional - action and unfortunately repetitive visually, but there's some fun to be had in puzzling out and solving the world. With a slightly faster pace, a bit more variety, a better English translation, and maybe a bit more guidance towards finding the clues (the dichotomy between the unreliable but still broadly helpful villagers, and the overly-well-hidden ironclad clue books, is an interesting one), I'd call it a perfectly enjoyable game, even if not one that matches the highs of the other two NES CVs - as it is it's just a deeply flawed game with some pleasant elements.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Volteccer_Jack »

Personally I like 3 a lot a more than 1, because the original Castlevania is very rough around the edges. For every perfect section like the Death hallway, you have a weird cobbled together section like the final stage. But I do agree 100% with BIL's recommendation for first-timers to play CV3 on the upper route, the lower route being more indulgent and experimental (as well as harder). The characters on each route emphasis this, with upper route giving a straightforward alternate to Trevor, and lower route giving you Alucard's flight shenanigans.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

For CV3, just do upper route every single time. :P
That route is pure quality video game design. I think both games are tight, but yeah I'll admit the final stage in CV1 isn't excellent. CV3 might be my favourite of the entire series, but it really swings back and forth every day.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BEAMLORD »

Duly noted on the CV3 front, many thanks all. Looking forward to playing :mrgreen:

In other matters, I had a few hours to kill before work this morning so decided to fire up Ninja Gaiden, and got my first 1CC.

I collected all 3 lives (once). Took a projectile-assisted pit dive in stage 3, fucked the jump in 5.2 (? - think that's it, the awkward one where you have to catch a low-hanging wall-cling), and got avalanched by hunchbacks and roundly beaten after missing the time-stop item in 6.3. I managed to breeze 6.2 like a magnificent seagull though, which was encouraging.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Ed Oscuro »

dojo_b wrote:late 21st: inter me with my tier-fellows as determined by a certified 1CC list (someplace where the sky is still blue, pls!).
"The sky over the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel" can be interpreted different ways now! :)
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

Huntdown is on sale for $8 on the eshop. Get it if you think you even might enjoy it. Arcade mode alone is worth the price of admission. Highly recommended. The switch version is flawless, as far as I can tell. It controls very well on joycons, due to the fact the controls are well-suited to 4-way dpad inputs. All of my 1ccs were on the switch version. I have not experienced any crashes or technical issues on the switch port.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by mycophobia »

BEAMLORD wrote:Duly noted on the CV3 front, many thanks all. Looking forward to playing :mrgreen:

In other matters, I had a few hours to kill before work this morning so decided to fire up Ninja Gaiden, and got my first 1CC.

I collected all 3 lives (once). Took a projectile-assisted pit dive in stage 3, fucked the jump in 5.2 (? - think that's it, the awkward one where you have to catch a low-hanging wall-cling), and got avalanched by hunchbacks and roundly beaten after missing the time-stop item in 6.3. I managed to breeze 6.2 like a magnificent seagull though, which was encouraging.
nice one. a no-death isn't far behind a 1cc, keep at it
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Ghegs »

Oh cool, Super Cyborg is getting released on Switch, and it's next week. Guess I'll buy the game for the third time.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by it290 »

Sima Tuna wrote:Huntdown is on sale for $8 on the eshop. Get it if you think you even might enjoy it. Arcade mode alone is worth the price of admission. Highly recommended. The switch version is flawless, as far as I can tell. It controls very well on joycons, due to the fact the controls are well-suited to 4-way dpad inputs. All of my 1ccs were on the switch version. I have not experienced any crashes or technical issues on the switch port.
Thanks for the tip on this. Game is ridiculously fun.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BryanM »

I feel like I'm making a tiny bit of progress with Last Battle.

I confirmed months ago that it is possible to kill bosses without entering "buff mode", the shirt just magically disappears when the special kill animation plays. As a kid it made sense to think it might not be possible, but as an elderly programmer I should have been certain of our laziness.

Anyway, that naturally lead to my current mini project: assemble a "shirt preservation" run of the game.

And the first major roadblock: the chapter 2 boss.

Oh Duke. You're such a bastard.

The normal exploit here is to buff out, do the jumpkick (you can call it a divekick, it's strong enough for that) to his head, and murderate him. Or you could roll the dice trading blows, you have the endurance in buff mode to maybe come out ahead.

In shirt mode... you can endure four or five hits tops, if your lifebar is full. And you don't have an attack that turns you into a god javelin with an attack box a thousand miles away from your hit box.

The problem is, he has a longer reach than you do. You have to be standing on top of his balls to hit him, you have to be standing within a body length of his foot for him to hit you. He has invincibility frames while he's attacking and you're too slow to walk out of his balls in time after hitting him. Good times.

My first successful win in this fight used a "rush in and punch him in the dick after he lands" strategy. You can duck under his punch, and it's 50/50 if he chooses to punch or kick you. If RNG is on your side, he can be knocked back to the wall, stunlocked, and killed. Somehow my first attempt at this strategy worked; I was shocked. Thought he might have been intentionally designed to be impossible to kill in shirt mode. (Possibly to keep up shirt consistency, as it comes back after disappearing... I'm sure I've thought about this more than the designer has.) Replicating the win this way, has eluded me. Coin never landed on heads enough times again.

Hoo... but I have a much more promising strategy now. See, stepping forward or backward counts as an action and the boss isn't able to attack while doing one of those. So there's a very easy way to beat the boss 100% of the time while taking no damage: stand just outside the range that triggers his kick. Wait for him to step forward. Step forward and punch him in the boob. Walk back out of his range. Easy!

.... it would be, if the window wasn't so tight. He requires around 1.2 seconds to take a step. This is plenty of time to close the distance if you were outside of his punch range, but his kick range.... The error margin feels around 0.33 seconds: if you're too far away when you step in, you get hit. If you're too close during the footsies, you get kicked. It's not trivial, but it feels like something I should be able to master eventually with a few more hours.

This is strangely difficult and technical for what normally is a pretty dumb game. Practicing footsies with this guy is rather hypnotic; like entering a world where the only thing that exists is keeping a specific distance from this guy, constantly watching for when he starts moving forward and asking yourself "do I go in?"
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

it290 wrote:
Sima Tuna wrote:Huntdown is on sale for $8 on the eshop. Get it if you think you even might enjoy it. Arcade mode alone is worth the price of admission. Highly recommended. The switch version is flawless, as far as I can tell. It controls very well on joycons, due to the fact the controls are well-suited to 4-way dpad inputs. All of my 1ccs were on the switch version. I have not experienced any crashes or technical issues on the switch port.
Thanks for the tip on this. Game is ridiculously fun.
Hell yeah it is. The Arcade 1ccs are very approachable if you feel like going for them. The game is generous with extra lives.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Ghegs wrote:Oh cool, Super Cyborg is getting released on Switch, and it's next week. Guess I'll buy the game for the third time.
That's great news, it's a game I've been wanting to play for ages.
Though with no talk of a physical release yet, it'll probably be another year before one gets announced, and two more before it's actually shipped :P
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Ghegs »

Sumez wrote:
Ghegs wrote:Oh cool, Super Cyborg is getting released on Switch, and it's next week. Guess I'll buy the game for the third time.
That's great news, it's a game I've been wanting to play for ages.
Though with no talk of a physical release yet, it'll probably be another year before one gets announced, and two more before it's actually shipped :P
If it even gets announced. I'm still hoping for a Völgarr physical on Switch, but at this point it's looking unlikely. Even if Super Cyborg gets a physical release down the line, with the digital version only costing €7, it's not a big loss to double-dip on the physical.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

True enough, I've made some exceptions. I just generally don't like owning digital-only games, they tend to just disappear into a black hole for me.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

Is Super Cyborg one of the "good" retro-style games? Even though I've enjoyed a few of these (Huntdown, Okinawa Rush, Blazing Chrome etc,) I tend to be extremely wary of any game using older visuals. Especially NES-era visuals. When I saw pictures of Super Cyborg, it looked to me like a bad Contra 1 knockoff. But gameplay feel is hard to translate from how something looks.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

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I've heard nothing but really good stuff about it
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by it290 »

Sima Tuna wrote: Hell yeah it is. The Arcade 1ccs are very approachable if you feel like going for them. The game is generous with extra lives.
I've gotten two of them so far! Pretty sure I'll get the others in the next couple of days, along with the 'Badass' level clear. Super satisfying game, I only wish the optional objectives were more fun to go for, but the level of enjoyment you get from sliding, dodging and narrowly avoiding bullet spray to take down an entire squad of enemies more than makes up for it. Really interested to see some speedruns of this, since playing safe involves so much of taking your time and rushing in often means certain death if you're not prepared.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

I've finally had a change to try out The Ninja Warriors Once Again. Got killed by Deimos and Phobos since they're totally new enemy types now and I don't know what to do about them. Don't have much to say about it at the moment, except that it looks great and it's awesome that this ever got made.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by XoPachi »

Sima Tuna wrote:Is Super Cyborg one of the "good" retro-style games? Even though I've enjoyed a few of these (Huntdown, Okinawa Rush, Blazing Chrome etc,) I tend to be extremely wary of any game using older visuals. Especially NES-era visuals. When I saw pictures of Super Cyborg, it looked to me like a bad Contra 1 knockoff. But gameplay feel is hard to translate from how something looks.
Super Cyborg is exactly what a Contra 5 should play like. Amazing game before and after the stage 3 boss.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

BryanM wrote:I feel like I'm making a tiny bit of progress with Last Battle.
Valiant reportage Bryan, marked for index! This tragic era calls for a saviour who will torimodose the love for MD Hokuto no Ken - if indeed there was any to begin with! :shock: As we'd discussed previously, sources differ - but just between the two of us, our patron saint Edmond The Mad is more of a dear friend than a truly seasoned veteran, particularly opposite charter member Ruldra. Come back Edmans, let's take down that JAQJACKASS for the big 10th anniversary special! :cool:

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Vanguard wrote:I've finally had a change to try out The Ninja Warriors Once Again. Got killed by Deimos and Phobos since they're totally new enemy types now and I don't know what to do about them. Don't have much to say about it at the moment, except that it looks great and it's awesome that this ever got made.
Excellent to hear! Good timing with Kiki Kaikai Again imminent, too. :smile: Interested to hear what you think of the controls - they've a few quirks and dings that rankle me slightly, particularly compared to the SFC's near-flawless handling. That aside, almost three years on, I comfortably regard OA as a great Time Attack complement to TNWA's survivalist 4:3 pressure cooker.

I still hope we'll see a proper Ninja Warriors 2 someday - I want these mechanics put to AC-calibre survival intensity, a tantalising prospect OA mostly sidesteps in favour of (first-rate) exhibit play. OA's crowds are wickedly challenging to control for efficient disposal, but I rarely feel truly threatened, let alone overrun, with SFC providing the better (but still not quite AC-tight) survival game. They're both phenomenally good sidescrolling brawlers, needless to say.

I'd settle for a Natsume Hokuto no Ken license Image Yooo, imagine a Ken/Rei/Toki/Jagi/Raoh lineup. :o All-rounder/aerial/technical/berserker/juggernaut, that's what I'm sayin. :cool:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

Ninja Warriors Once Again is absolutely excellent - how could it not be, given the game it's based on - but it does have its wrinkles. Beyond the enemy design not being sufficiently adjusted to keep pace with the buffed player characters and increased screen space, resulting in the game being more about dominance than the SNES version's survival course, the bosses lose some of their wakeup iframes. Almost all of them are more vulnerable to being pinned with wakeup grabs and wakeup attacks than their equivalents in the SNES game, which makes the boss fights feel generally more simplistic than they originally did.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

That's a concern for Super Cyborg 2022, because it originally was 4:3 and I read they've expanded the action viewport for the new release. If there's a genre where this matters is Contra-likes, but they tend to easify everything these days, don't they?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BryanM »

I'm definitely the #1 fan in the world of MD Hokuto no Ken. Literally wrote the crappy FAQ that's out there when I was almost 13, don't see anyone else making one'o those in the past 600 years. I vaguely remember renting an NES game in the series and enjoying it once, but like with everything to do with Kenshiro video games, I'm not 100% sure that wasn't a hallucination.

I've found reliable exploits that can get me to the midboss of Chapter 4. I can't say for certain if he can be beaten without powering up, or if he's an insurmountable brick wall. His diving spearhand is the killer - you can hit-cancel its damage and keep him from damaging you, but you have to be standing in exactly the right spot to do it. Which is outside footsie range, and pushes you against the wall and into certain doom. More viable is probably finding some exploit to prevent him doing it somehow.

One thing I can say for certain, this game was not designed to be beaten without going into buff mode. All this practice would have taken hundreds of hours to do on actual hardware without a game genie code to start you in these fights..

Are Kega videos well supported by youtube? The internet is iffy on it. I've gotten far enough that if I'm still stuck here for months, I'll throw up a partial run on there.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

Ninja Warriors Once Again is great. It's so nice to see a remake that totally rebuilds the game while retaining everything that made it unique and loved in the first place. You just know that if a Gearbox or Activision type company had grabbed hold of this IP, they'd have turned it into a first person shooter or behind-the-shoulder god of war 4 clone. And they wouldn't have called it Ninja Saviors or Ninja Warriors Once Again. They'd have just called it "Ninja Warriors." Or maybe even "Ninja Warriors Again." So that you'd be extra confused and have to always define you're talking about the old, good game instead of the new garbage.

The remakes this team puts out are truly next level. Sure, they might have some slight differences from the originals, but I'm willing to accept that. I don't think it's ever done with any malicious intent. The team is trying to balance the old with the new. Releasing Wild Guns Reloaded in (then) current meme year took a lot of fucking balls. Especially as it represents a genre that died before many gamers were even alive.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

Yes, not to lose perspective here - the Wild Guns and Ninja Warriors Again remakes are miracle games, their aesthetics are absolutely top-class, and they retain so much of the appeal of the excellent original versions that they're easy to recommend to anyone with an interest in classic games. I only think they lose out when directly compared to their originals, because both of them fall short in a few ways - TNWOA with its lessened enemy pressure and more vulnerable bosses (and, while I'm complaining, the new version of the st1 / 6 boss is not quite as interesting as the original), and Wild Guns in less immediately tangible ways - I think the widescreen view causes the game to lose the cadence of the original action, as moving the cursor across the screen to attack enemies and enemies' attacks on you are all longer and more stretched out than before, making the game feel less dense. They're only marginally weaker than the SNES games, but that is enough for me to say that they're primarily cool for their great added content - making them excellent companion pieces to the original releases - rather than comprehensive remakes that stand above the originals.

This makes me more excited for the upcoming Pocky and Rocky, given that it's an original game and not a remake - I can't wait to see what they do with fully original material, because even if they didn't completely nail down every element that made the SNES games great, their added elements (Reloaded's new stages, Once Again's new characters - moreso Yaksha) show that they clearly still have it.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by trap15 »

BIL wrote:I'd settle for a Natsume Hokuto no Ken license Image Yooo, imagine a Ken/Rei/Toki/Jagi/Raoh lineup. :o All-rounder/aerial/technical/berserker/juggernaut, that's what I'm sayin. :cool:
Bro, it's already a thing! :mrgreen: They made the PS1 Hokuto no Ken game, not an R2RKMF by any means, but an excellent piece of work as expected from Natsume.

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@trap0xf | daifukkat.su/blog | scores | FIRE LANCER
<S.Yagawa> I like the challenge of "doing the impossible" with older hardware, and pushing it as far as it can go.
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