Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Randorama]

Quick question and I am off to perform hard gaming sessions (parental advice required, of course):

From time to time I can milk sequences of grapples+knees in vital parts of the enemies' face by grappling the enemy, landing a hit and moving down.
Some enemies blissfully exit the "please break my skull!" animation, follow you a few pixels down the y axis, and then enter the animation again and get another skull surgery on the fly.

I have been able to do it to greasers and mohawks, and sometimes chainmen will just suicide by happily entering this cycle.
Did you discuss this so far, Shishio Birru? My bad if I am napping on your lessons (zarei.gif here).

[BIL]

Yes, I've seen that happen repeatedly on the Fatman (hm. let's call him a Karnov, with his voodoo bullshit ) in stage 3's shop. However it seemed to do piddly damage, so I've never really revisited it. Much better to either boot him offscreen (if you're going for speed), or flatten him with off-axis KKKs. I actually like fighting him and the Flasher up ahead simultaneously, fun chaps. Especially when the latter earns his namesake, and sets them both aflame.

Offhand, I suspect what's happening with that staggered vertical knee bash, is the same mechanic seen in the previous page's GIF (now below). Leaving the grapple (in your case by moving vertically; in the GIF, by waiting), then snapping it back on instantly. I guess the few frames' vertical movement aren't enough to leave the trigger zone.

Oof! Christ! ME FOOKIN PLUMS M8! :O

Spoiler

Here's the active combat juke, mentioned on previous page. Note the Bomber failing to turn around instantly; as long as you're decently deft, you'll snag 'em every time. This goes for other player-sized enemies, too.

Spoiler

^^^ Dig the background CF1 homage, one of countless. Discovered last night, by accident (I swear!), you can harass the poor homeless dudes - I was hoping they might whip out a shooter if kicked long enough.

Heavies (Karnovs/Flashers/Jasons) and bosses seem to work completely differently, with regards to grapple strike placement. I guess it's because they can't be restrained to begin with. The estimable Murphagator has nomiss 1ALL speedruns of Vendetta's first loop, with all four characters, and he nails grapples consistently on bosses (their high DPS being vital to speedkills). Here's Boomer vs Ohsugi, frame-by-frame from a knockdown:

Spoiler

^^^ Note the foot positioning on Frame 1, with the toe of Ohsugi's boot just peeking out from behind Boomer's calf (blimey this is getting intimate - but then, so does teaching grapples IRL! ). Wakeup positioning seems like the simplest way to grapple heavies/bosses, though I've not used it much myself for now. Currently I just know the spacing to stomp on Buzzsaw while he whiffs his revenge attack - basically, stand near his head, so you can see his teeth through Boomer's shins, and whale away on him.

Conversely, Murph's able to catch him and other heavy targets in grapples from standing, a level of skill well beyond mine. But since I'm not going for absolute speed (just a nice even flow of carnage ), I'm happy just beating 'em to the ground for further shoeings.

This unprecedented ability (by Technos standards) to knock enemies flat should always be kept in mind, along with your characters' Kunio/Billy-quick speed. PPPing into throws from stationary ala Final Fight doesn't work here; stay mobile, and floor enemies regularly for kickings and (in the case of player-weights) wakeup grapplings. If you go for a P chain, consider landing just a couple before PKing em.

Blow-away attacks and fighting from off-axis, particularly essential without guaranteed PPP chains.

Spoiler

^^^ I was wondering what CF2's timeout mechanic might be, with no visible timer... turns out the game will just start spawning enemies from the left, first zako, then rapidly tougher. I wonder if you can counterstop this way. I love it when games have actual timeout hazards, not just a ticking clock and unceremonious "time over" message.

The role of rear grapples, from survival standpoint: executing stunned enemies.

Spoiler

Crime Fighters, 80s grime perfected.

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CF1 itself an authentic product of the decade, of course! To be fair on CF2's sunnier, early-90s straight-to-VHS tone, in which Boomer trades in his hardass spray-ons for a comfy pair of Mom Jeans. CF1 could be mistaken for a point n' click in some stills.

[Randorama]

Thanks, I will check again later on and see if I can implement the grapples more often, though I generally do not find them indispensable.
Still, you did not kick the poor homeless and yell "yoo sod, go and get a job you lousy bum!?" or something, every time?
It's a very tasteless feature that aptly matches the presence of the very offensive latex guys on st. 3, I guess.
The game might be sunnier than the first title, but that '90s tasteless vibe is definitely not for the faint of heart, in these years of heightened social responsibility & respect

[Udderdude]

Crime Fighters, 80s grime perfected.

Spoiler

CF1 itself an authentic product of the decade, of course! To be fair on CF2's sunnier, early-90s straight-to-VHS tone, in which Boomer trades in his hardass spray-ons for a comfy pair of Mom Jeans. CF1 could be mistaken for a point n' click in some stills.

Is CF1 actually worth playing or what? I'm kindof on the fence about it gameplay-wise. (I'm talking about the Japanese revision of course).

[BIL]

Tricky to recommend. I will say that formally, in terms of stage, moveset and enemy design, it's a good game. Not outstanding, but certainly decent, especially for a relatively early attempt (and Konami's first). It's the engine that'll either charm or repulse. Attacks and combos are a bit stiff-feeling, and overly strict on the Y-Axis... but by that same token, I find them brutally satisfying to connect with, followed by a fatal shoeing.

Its best features are undoubtedly aesthetic; the comic-hideous grime, the vicious Muay-influenced player moveset, and the outstandingly ferocious OST. Hands-on time in MAME is highly recommended, as it's all for naught if the engine's foibles leave you cold.

Worth mentioning just in case - Japan 2P is the only revision worth playing, with its third Back Kick button vitally leavening the otherwise clunky P/K mechanics. Japan 4P nixed the button, and plays just as stiltedly as both US revs.

Also, the inter-loop Boss Revenge stage is hot garbage, but then this was 1989, the year of the Cube Rush, so... There are solutions, but not particularly happy ones. It's one thing I'd chop without hesitation.

[Udderdude]

Yeah, it's definitely an early attempt at the genre. But I don't feel the combat is stiff or anything. Also, I didn't even know there's a Japan 4 player variant, because that's not in MAME .. lol

[BIL]

Stiff's not quite the right word - it's more the way enemies tend to visibly "break out" of some combos, compared to more fluid contemporaries like Ninja Gaiden, despite them being totally consistent. Off-axis BK knockdowns to Dragos are a good example. Doesn't look like a combo, but is ;3



That, the very strict Y-Axis, and the game's sheer unforgiving difficulty tend to make it a tricky sell. Still I'll vouch for it any time. Once I get that goddamn boss revenge sorted out anyway!

Despite CF2 being the decidedly superior game overall, one thing I miss is CF1's bigger crowds. The latter are actually a bit too much, imo - with your limited crowd control ability, the Waterfront stage can become a living hell, if its waves aren't partitioned. This also goes for Double Dragon II's last stage - but where that game will at least grind to a DD1-esque crawl, suggesting you're maybe biting off more than the devs intended, CF1 has barely any slowdown at all, even with screenloads of enemies.

This is novice talk, admittedly. I've no doubt there's nutters out there who can sweep the absolute worst of CF1's stages in a wave of nutsack-stomping carnage.

Meanwhile CF2's first loop is a little thin on enemies. The second is just about perfect (WTB Loop 2 start... then again I can just put a save at the start on my alt PSN account), but still a little short of such extremes; ones the vastly stronger characters are perfectly suited for. Still, deliberately timing out for an impromptu Jigoku no Survival Mode is an ok substitute.

[Udderdude]

Yeah, this pixel perfect Y-axis alignment is driving me nuts. Especially when my attack whiffs, and the enemy attacks me from the exact same position and hits me. Konami Quality Hitboxes(tm).

[BIL]

Also when they hit 0HP and get jiggy on ya Can be maddeningly difficult to hit the stupid harmless bastards.

[Bassa-Bassa]

It's been a long time now, but I remember the key to succeed in Crime Fighters was the back kick - you don't try a finisher combo without having weakened the enemy first with the back kick, as if it were the main attack. And the pistol has unlimited ammo, it's not too hard to keep it until the stage end. I didn't find the game too difficult until the Chinese dudes at stage 4, indeed. The game in MAME seems to run too slow compared to the PCB, though:

https://mametesters.org/view.php?id=7381

I'd also love to know which Japan version with 4 players mode is being discussed here, because Japan supposedly only got the 2 players version?

[BIL]

It's been a long time now, but I remember the key to succeed in Crime Fighters was the back kick - you don't try a finisher combo without having weakened the enemy first with the back kick, as if it were the main attack.

BK is weak, but very quick, it combos, and most importantly: it's completely invincible. So yeah, it's your go-to poke for much of the game. The front kick is nowhere near as good; my biggest use of its button, by far, is stomping fallen enemies.

I like to set up the ACA version for four-button play. The classic Technos [P] [J] [K] trio, with [BK] up top. ("jump" in this game's case being P+K, much like the leaping knockdowns in its sequel)

And the pistol has unlimited ammo, it's not too hard to keep it until the stage end. I didn't find the game too difficult until the Chinese dudes at stage 4, indeed. The game in MAME seems to run too slow compared to the PCB, though:

The pistol's unlimited ammo is actually a Japan 2P thing; in the World (and AFAIK JP 4P) versions, it's limited, though it does a lot more damage per shot.

Weapons tend to be game-changers in CF, moreso than its contemporaries. The power boost is more comparable to something like Ikari's tanks. The JP gun is an instant win button, of course, but the knife and the pipe can both tear through bosses, too, if you know what you're doing. Of course the tradeoff is that the tiniest hit will instantly lose your weapon.

I've never played it in MAME, but the ACA one seems to synchronise with the intro in Janet's run... wouldn't be the first time Hamster fixed something in a Konami title, haha. As an aside, Janet rocks - anyone who enjoys this thread should subscribe, lots of badass runs!

I'd also love to know which Japan version with 4 players mode is being discussed here, because Japan supposedly only got the 2 players version?

A quick google the other day seemed to suggest a Japan 4P ROM is out there. At any rate, the one I'm familiar with is included in the ACA release, along with Japan 2P, World 2P and World 4P.

The 4P revs are actually really good fun imo - IF you have four relatively competent players. (or I guess four incompetent ones with plenty of beer ). Even without the Back Kick button, a four-man team can make short of work of things. For solo play, though, Japan 2P is the only choice imo.

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Aha, something I'd forgotten (been a while since I played CF1) - the odd way you're immobilised for a split-second after each attack. That's another potentially annoying quirk you have to stay ahead of.

[Blinge]

Putting save state practice into Mizubaku.. okay stage 5 has revealed its secrets to me, think i can get through it
got a kill-strat for the boss.

next day, play a full credit of the game, drop lives on stage 2. STAGE TWO.
This game is dangerous for auto-pilot mode. I don't know how any of you guys focus on games, especially one like this. because it's "easy" I completely lose focus and then do stupid shit like run straight into umbrella enemies trying to point-blank them because i was replaying a conversation i had with a coworker two weeks ago.

then it's "wow you REALLY SUCK LMAO can't even get past stage 2, everyone else on shmupsfarm could beat this game easily "

no, that wasn't the conversation with a co worker.

it's not even fun man, none of this is fun.

[Bassa-Bassa]

It's been a long time now, but I remember the key to succeed in Crime Fighters was the back kick - you don't try a finisher combo without having weakened the enemy first with the back kick, as if it were the main attack.

BK is weak, but very quick, it combos, and most importantly: it's completely invincible. So yeah, it's your go-to poke for much of the game. The front kick is nowhere near as good; my biggest use of its button, by far, is stomping fallen enemies.

I like to set up the ACA version for four-button play. The classic Technos [P] [J] [K] trio, with [BK] up top. ("jump" in this game's case being P+K, much like the leaping knockdowns in its sequel)

And the pistol has unlimited ammo, it's not too hard to keep it until the stage end. I didn't find the game too difficult until the Chinese dudes at stage 4, indeed. The game in MAME seems to run too slow compared to the PCB, though:

The pistol's unlimited ammo is actually a Japan 2P thing; in the World (and AFAIK JP 4P) versions, it's limited, though it does a lot more damage per shot.

Weapons tend to be game-changers in CF, moreso than its contemporaries. The power boost is more comparable to something like Ikari's tanks. The JP gun is an instant win button, of course, but the knife and the pipe can both tear through bosses, too, if you know what you're doing. Of course the tradeoff is that the tiniest hit will instantly lose your weapon.

I've never played it in MAME, but the ACA one seems to synchronise with the intro in Janet's run... wouldn't be the first time Hamster fixed something in a Konami title, haha. As an aside, Janet rocks - anyone who enjoys this thread should subscribe, lots of badass runs!

I'd also love to know which Japan version with 4 players mode is being discussed here, because Japan supposedly only got the 2 players version?

A quick google the other day seemed to suggest a Japan 4P ROM is out there. At any rate, the one I'm familiar with is included in the ACA release, along with Japan 2P, World 2P and World 4P.

The 4P revs are actually really good fun imo - IF you have four relatively competent players. (or I guess four incompetent ones with plenty of beer ). Even without the Back Kick button, a four-man team can make short of work of things. For solo play, though, Japan 2P is the only choice imo.

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Aha, something I'd forgotten (been a while since I played CF1) - the odd way you're immobilised for a split-second after each attack. That's another potentially annoying quirk you have to stay ahead of.

It's not for everybody, yeah, but worth a try if you don't mind slow mechanics and oldish pixel art. The pistol is really satisfying to use. A shame MAME doesn't emulate it well.

So Japan 4P version is in the Hamster release? It should have got a release originally somehow then, I guess. Are there any differences with the US 4P?

[BIL]

This game is dangerous for auto-pilot mode. I don't know how any of you guys focus on games, especially one like this. because it's "easy" I completely lose focus and then do stupid shit like run straight into umbrella enemies trying to point-blank them because i was replaying a conversation i had with a coworker two weeks ago.

I get that mental interference too - it's almost a compulsion, ala Poe's The Imp of the Perverse. Dunno what's to be done about it, sounds like a subject for someone into their zen meditation. All I know is that the end of some runs, my skull's like a shortwave radio. Moderate knee-bouncing helps a little.

Main thing though, don't force yourself to enjoy your hobbies. Change is as good as a rest, and all that. I gave my Bloodborne replay a slightly depressed start this morning, with the Hard Scrolling Action temporarily FUBAR (goddamn DS4 dpad died, third in less than three years @ £40 a pop -_- gonna just build that PS4 stick I've been putting off forever). Sorted me right out.

It's not for everybody, yeah, but worth a try if you don't mind slow mechanics and oldish pixel art. The pistol is really satisfying to use. A shame MAME doesn't emulate it well.

So Japan 4P version is in the Hamster release? It should have got a release originally somehow then, I guess. Are there any differences with the US 4P?

Offhand, I'm guessing the censorship is the same across the JP/US 4P boards (no Hard Gay enemy also, stage 2's bikini girl no longer has her scandalous wedgie and a poster later on, that's basically a sleaze-themed boobytrap in JP - it'll come to life and briefly restrain your character - is inert in US).

I've never confirmed any of those myself, but they seem widely-reported. What I wonder about is the other sleazy stuff, like stage 1's massive insurance poster of the topless girl ("Are you covered?" I wonder where they nicked that from, pretty clever!), and stage 3's very obvious *ahem* massage parlour. IIRC it's pretty obvious stage 3 overall is some kinda red light distric, with the magazines and posters about. Kinda odd if that stuff stayed in, but then again, maybe the USA branch were settling for PG-13, haha.

Worth noting that, just like its sequel, the ACA version of Crime Fighters is itself mildly censored, even in JP region. Hard Gay no longer humps the air while taunting, now he just stands in place like "bring it bitch! imma kick yo ass!" Which is kinda the exact opposite of the original game's intent, haha. Annoying, but oh well - at least he's mechanically unaffected (blimey that sounds wrong). Interesting enemy type tbh, kinda like the STG magnetic mine that slowly closes in on your ship.

I love this guy's reaction to getting the ol' Bad Touch Larry from Hard Gay.

Tangentially, it's cool how CF2 keeps up the "sin city" tradition for its third stage... but the intervening grocery store is a bit of a WTF. I guess hard-working girls do gotta eat! I like the opening "SEA FOOD" restaurant with a "TOPLESS" poster on its wall

Also, this little Easter Egg message made me laugh out loud when I saw it, while busily setting a man on fire and stomping him to death Check out director "OKAMOTO" on the nearby columns, too, another "X wuz 'ere" tag after stage 3's dumpster (property of character designer NAKAZAWA )



Dammit, I don't have a screencap handy, that video cap should be legible enough though. The Crime Fighters and their de facto third entry Violent Storm are legit funny games... I'd put them in the same sub-subgenre as the Dynamite Dekas - slapstick brawling, lots of prop violence and sight gags alongside bone-crushing violence.

As with the first game, I notice a British punk slant to the graffiti in CF2. "SOD IT" "PUNKS RULE OK" and so on, while CF1 has its "ROOTS REGGAE" straight outta early 80s Brixton. I'm sure the devs were avid followers of the in tunes, for work if not for pleasure. Blimey I could ramble on about these games all afternoon.

[Sanguis]

[...] (goddamn DS4 dpad died, third in less than three years @ £40 a pop -_- gonna just build that PS4 stick I've been putting off forever) [...]

I like the DS4 dpad as well, and managed to find a new DS4 last week, on Amazon UK. They were only available in small quantities and were quickly taken, so I had to check every day for new ones.

EDIT : It looks like there are a few DS4 right now on Amazon FR.

[BIL]

Nice one. It's a bit of a love/hate for me with the DS4. Works great but can't handle the pressure. If I were smart I'd find a reliable source of underlays, and buy like a hundred. >_< It's always the same story, and it's always a Metal Slug that deals the final blow. I blame the HMG sweep, but if there was ever a mechanic good enough to kill your controller for...

Ah well. If I don't watch it I'm gonna end up putting another 300 hours on Bloodborne, and I gots business to do! I like the Souls/etc stuff well enough, but as far as I'm concerned this is Shinobi (2002) come again, ninja as all hell on those quickstepped backstabs. Also infernally amusing on the most basic pratfalling ultraviolence level, lethal combination.

Good Ideas™ abound!

Spoiler

I think I will get that stick done though. I despise input lag with a fiery vengeance (I consider high-performance gaming as much a matter of touch as vision, lag eats away at my most fundamental enjoyment ), and from what I hear, a Brook UFB will shave down a margin from DS4 Bluetooth. Probably negligible - ACA, ShotTriggers and Belt Action Pack control more than tightly enough as it is - but I believe in overkill! And maybe it'll help out some stuff that's not quite as tight, like Arcade Stadium. Dug out an ol' AGETEC "green monster" Dreamcast stick I'd whacked up with Seimitsu parts forever ago, gonna get it wired up and start knocking over some more bucket 1LCs.

EDIT : It looks like there are a few DS4 right now on Amazon FR.

Much appreciated! Will have a look.

[Sengoku Strider]

Hot news I know, but I just discovered Rockman X4 is awesome. I always kind of ignored this series. I thought the NES Mega Man sprite was sheer perfection, and the X design never sat right with me (though I did end up thinking Maverick Hunter X was one of the best action games I'd ever played).

After sitting on X4 for Saturn for over a year, I had a friend over who loves the series and so I brought it out as he only knew the NES games & Legends. Luckily he picked Zero, a character who I'd always skipped over as he exhibited a bit too much 90s edgelordness for me.

Holy damn, this is like the really good all-sprite Strider sequel we were never allowed to have. It looks freaking gorgeous through an OSSC+SCART. It plays like absolute butter. A shame I went back to try Zero in X3 and he doesn't seem to feature the sword much. On the plus side, all four of the MM Zero games appear to be on the Wii U Virtual Console - are those any good?

[BIL]

Hey WTF, these guys ripped off Crime Fighters 2 for their look!

Holy damn, this is like the really good all-sprite Strider sequel we were never allowed to have. It looks freaking gorgeous through an OSSC+SCART. It plays like absolute butter. A shame I went back to try Zero in X3 and he doesn't seem to feature the sword much. On the plus side, all four of the MM Zero games appear to be on the Wii U Virtual Console - are those any good?

Premiere Rockmans Thread Straight outta the index, so you know it's good

ITT, a spirited exchange on the merits and faults of Rockman Zero, from opposite sides of the aisle. Warning: FRICKIN HARDCORE (hope you're both doing ok, Squire & kitten)

I've had the JP Zero carts forever, but like most Rockman titles I considered them rainy day pickups, and my todo list is currently so bright I have to wear a welding mask. Grabbed the recent Rockman Zero Collection on PS4, since it includes the EN+JP versions - seems (much like its contemporary Belt Action Collection) to be freakishly well-done for a non-M2/Hamster release. Plays comfier on a monitor+controller, but the games are straight emulations, so the FOV is as unnervingly tight as ever.

That's the main thing that gives me pause with those games, as Zero's handling is believe it or not even smoother than in X4.

[Rastan78]

Grabbed the recent Rockman Zero Collection on PS4, since it includes the EN+JP versions - seems (much like its contemporary Belt Action Collection) to be freakishly well-done for a non-M2/Hamster release. Plays comfier on a monitor+controller, but the games are straight emulations, so the FOV is as unnervingly tight as ever.

That's the main thing that gives me pause with those games, as Zero's handling is believe it or not even smoother than in X4.

What's crazy is they actually ported these games using source code for the Zero/ZX Collection instead if going with emulation. Something you don't see too often in this day an age.

I guess they really felt the backlash from the X Collection having high input lag.

Zero is the one I've played the most. It's surprisingly hardcore and unforgiving for a portable action title. Pretty cool though. Inti did the Zero series and you could see the beginnings of where they would end up going with Gunvolt. There's a lot of room for optimizing movement techniques and replaying levels to improve.

I'm like you though, BIL. Too many games and not enough time to really give these a fair shake.

Same with the excellent GBA Vania collection. I ended up playing through the beginning of each game for old times sake and never finished any of em.

[Sima Tuna]

Mega Man Zero 2 and 3 were some of my favorite GBA games as a kid. I have the collection, and I do agree it's pretty great. But I don't really care for the new save system. What it does is give you "save points" about every 10 steps or so. I call these save points, but they're really just save states. Now, the old system for the Zero games was based on OG mega man. You had your lives, and each stage usually had a checkpoint in the middle somewhere and a checkpoint before the boss, just like an NES mega man game. If you lost all of your lives, the game would boot you back to your last hard save, which would usually be the start of the level. Now, I understand that loading a file after dying 3 times is a pain in the ass. But all they really needed to do to fix this was reset you to the start of the level on losing all your lives, imo.

What they've done instead is to remove lives entirely. The new save feature gives you infinite lives and respawns you at the last save state point you hit. This IS good for practicing.

The downside is with score. See, by removing lives, not only are lives rendered pointless as pickups, but the game automatically gives you the full lives points value at stage completion. Which makes getting high ranks (and subsequent unlocks meant for master players) way fucking easier. Because now it doesn't matter how many times you die. You can die 100 times on stage 1 and still beat it with an A rank.

You can turn this feature off. But this isn't like manually choosing to save state or not to. There's some effort required to load a state or save a state in an emulator. And nobody would ever argue playing that way is legit. But the way this save assist feature works, it's just so advantageous that I can't really see people *not* using it. It's too good.

I wouldn't have any complaints with the save assist if it zeroed out your score or limited you to a B rank at max. The fact it has no negative effect on rank in a game about mastering gameplay to achieve max rank bothers me.

Again, this only applies to score play and not casual play. If you are learning the game then use save assist. It's great as a practice feature to help you learn the games. Don't use easy mode though.

Another small issue I have with ZX and ZX Advent is they had to emulate the touch screen. Not their fault at all. But it's still inferior as compared to the DS originals. ZX and ZX Advent are also metroidvanias, which is my other issue with them.

But yeah, Mega Man Zero 2 and Zero 3 are the height of 2d character action sidescrolling gameplay. Those games are an evolution on X series' gameplay in every way.

X collection having high input lag

God dammit. I knew something felt off when I played MMX on my Switch. Fucking capcom.

[Volteccer_Jack]

X4 may be only my third favorite X game, but it is the only X game that feels to me like the devteam had a clear idea of what they wanted to create. It all comes together very cohesively and is super satisfying to play, even/especially when the story is being goofy and dumb. And the final boss battle is unforgettable.

On the plus side, all four of the MM Zero games appear to be on the Wii U Virtual Console - are those any good?

In my mind, the entire X series was an awkward growing pain, a cocoon for the metamorphosis that produced the vivaciously violent butterfly that is the Zero series. The best 4 games on the GBA, the most consistently high-quality Megaman series, and just an utter thrill to play.

The biggest complaint I have about Megaman Zero is that it set my expectations for Inti Creates way too high, and now almost everything else they release is a big disappointment in comparison

[Sumez]

On the plus side, all four of the MM Zero games appear to be on the Wii U Virtual Console - are those any good?

If you're looking for more like MMX4, you're better off playing MMX 1, 2, and 3, those are all much better.
The Zero games are more Inti Creates games than they are Mega Man games. I think Zero 3 and 4 have their enjoyable moments for sure, while the first Zero game especially has too many issues to bother with unless you are just gonna play it for the sake of completion. It's probably easier at this point to buy the whole Zero/ZX collection released recently than bothering with virtual console. But if you're expecting something that feels like Mega Man X4 you're gonna be disappointed.

[Sengoku Strider]

Premiere Rockmans Thread Straight outta the index, so you know it's good

Thanks. I saw Metal Slug in the OP graphic for this thread and thought 'Ok, close enough.' I'll give that a bump next time.

ITT, a spirited exchange on the merits and faults of Rockman Zero, from opposite sides of the aisle. Warning: FRICKIN HARDCORE (hope you're both doing ok, Squire & kitten)

Fortunately I tend not to get as worked up about level design as that convo went, unless it's utterly dreadful. I'm typically more moved by other fundamentals - audio design + hit response, character responsiveness, hit registration, etc.

That's the main thing that gives me pause with those games, as Zero's handling is believe it or not even smoother than in X4.

That sounds incredible, because he's already silk in X4. I've been playing a ton of Shinobi games and a little MD Strider lately and it feels like a significant leap (which is kind of why I like OG Shinobi + Shadow Dancer - they're at least built around a more deliberate, rigid and tactical design). Super Shinobi II just about gets there though.

What's crazy is they actually ported these games using source code for the Zero/ZX Collection instead if going with emulation. Something you don't see too often in this day an age.

I guess they really felt the backlash from the X Collection having high input lag.

Alright, I think you just sold me on going with the collection, because I know the Wii U versions will have lag.

Same with the excellent GBA Vania collection. I ended up playing through the beginning of each game for old times sake and never finished any of em.

I you haven't finished it before, I recommend at least giving Aria a run through. I haven't played the last two DS Igavanias, but of the rest, Aria makes a strong case for being the best of all of them.

If you're looking for more like MMX4, you're better off playing MMX 1, 2, and 3, those are all much better.

I have the carts of 1 & 2 for Super Famicom, and the Saturn versions of 3 & 4. Like I initially mentioned, aside from it being a celebration of beautiful spritework, what made me fall in love with this one was specifically how playing as Zero felt almost like they'd smuggled in the properly-budgeted Strider sequel Capcom wasn't willing to greenlight. It plays like you want to remember all these old action platformers playing like, but too rarely do.

[Rastan78]

Alright, I think you just sold me on going with the collection, because I know the Wii U versions will have lag.

Yeah it's nice and crispy even on Switch. A lot of attention was paid to the presentation, menus and the whole deal. Doesn't feel far off from something M2 would've done at all. One caveat is that bc they didn't use emulation you have to rely on the manual save function at specified points like the original carts rather than instant save states anywhere.

Like what was mentioned above they introduced far more forgiving save points that can be easily toggled off. I went for the original experience when I played Zero, but I think it's cool they took the time to make it more accessible to new players. M2 has been doing a lot more of that too. These kinds of features are great IMO as long as the untainted OG game is also included.

I you haven't finished it before, I recommend at least giving Aria a run through. I haven't played the last two DS Igavanias, but of the rest, Aria makes a strong case for being the best of all of them.

Oh yeah I played the crap out of Circle and Aria in the day. HoD was the one I missed. In Aria for some semi-masochistic reason unknown even to myself I grinded (ground?) for 100% souls. Must've had time to kill one summer lol?

[Sengoku Strider]

Alright, I think you just sold me on going with the collection, because I know the Wii U versions will have lag.

Yeah it's nice and crispy even on Switch. A lot of attention was paid to the presentation, menus and the whole deal. Doesn't feel far off from something M2 would've done at all. One caveat is that bc they didn't use emulation you have to rely on the manual save function at specified points like the original carts rather than instant save states anywhere.

Like what was mentioned above they introduced far more forgiving save points that can be easily toggled off. I went for the original experience when I played Zero, but I think it's cool they took the time to make it more accessible to new players. M2 has been doing a lot more of that too. These kinds of features are great IMO as long as the untainted OG game is also included.

I tend to do as much of my playing on OG hardware as I can, so a lack of save states in a game like this wouldn't bother me. I used to save state my way through virtual console stuff but it just felt empty, like I hadn't really beaten the game. So these days I try to challenge myself to at least properly clear a stage before saving.

[Ghegs]

https://youtu.be/keH52lDOCVQ

https://www.gematsu.com/2022/03/run-and ... his-spring

Could be good, I'm carefully hopeful. Props on the setting if nothing else, I got some Dinosaucers flashbacks.

[drauch]

I remember being disappointed back when it was (originally) Apple Arcade only. The titty-jiggle at least warrants a try for pervos like me.

[BrianC]

Could be good, I'm carefully hopeful. Props on the setting if nothing else, I got some Dinosaucers flashbacks.

Strangely reminds me of Denver the Last Dinosaur, as well.

[Sima Tuna]

The turrican collection is on sale on the eshop. I never played turrican. Any good? Or is it too jank and confusing?

[Sumez]

I'm glad they're making a game in this style, but I wouldn't hold my breath for WayForward.

The turrican collection is on sale on the eshop. I never played turrican. Any good? Or is it too jank and confusing?

Jank and confusing are at least two words that describe the series super well. A lot of people love it, even though I don't know why, so I guess I wouldn't write it off completely.