Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

[Kollision]

Cannot believe this game has got 35+ pages.
Stop talking about it, it's sh!t.

80% of these 35+ pages are from stupid posts like yours.
Why not quit complainingg and actually play and talk about the game's "dreadful" mechanics instead?

[Chaos Phoenixma]

I've watched vids of a run, and it doesn't look like the utter kusoge that you guys love to make it out to be.

It does have flaws, but what game doesn't? I still don't own the game, but it's not something that I'd never buy.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The devs talked a lot of big words about ZOMG HARDCORE SHMUP and namedropped Yagawa, and then it ends up being another half-baked psuedo-Euroshmup with awkward mechanics and easily abuseable autofire/framerate.

It's even more bizarre hearing them namedrop Akira Yamaoka when the music is totally unremarkable in-game, not to mention the sound balance is so fucked up that you can't even hear the music well unless you drop the SFX by a ton.

EDIT: About the analog thing - I think I know why they optimized the game for analog play. The game was designed for the Xbox 360, and is aimed at the mainstream, non-stick-owning masses. Expecting players to use the shit 360 D-pad rather than the gdlk 360 analog stick would be a mistake.

The problem with this argument is that it would have been very easy to implement both analog control and digital controls. Simply have the Analog Stick behave as it does now, the D-Pad moves you at top speed, and have a slowdown button that only applies to D-Pad control (like in Touhou) or a speed shift button (like in Pink Sweets). It would have been an easily implemented option that simply wasn't out of pure laziness and/or incompetence on the part of the devs (same as why they didn't bother to make fully customizable buttons) and would have made the game much more playable.

[Udderdude]

I've watched vids of a run, and it doesn't look like the utter kusoge that you guys love to make it out to be.

It does have flaws, but what game doesn't? I still don't own the game, but it's not something that I'd never buy.

You might be able to squeeze some enjoyment out of it, but with so many better shmups out there, why bother? Our standards can be and should be higher.

It's even more bizarre hearing them namedrop Akira Yamaoka when the music is totally unremarkable in-game, not to mention the sound balance is so fucked up that you can't even hear the music well unless you drop the SFX by a ton.

I think he actually did compose music for it, although he was not putting in his best effort, phoning it in, etc.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I think he actually did compose music for it, although he was not putting in his best effort, phoning it in, etc.

I don't think that's true, he could very well have done his best for Sine Mora's soundtrack. It's more like how Giga Wing 2's soundtrack feels off; the music style simply doesn't fit the game. His work is very good but it tends to be darker, more what you could call atmospheric I guess? I just don't think his style meshes well with something that's more of an intense experience like that of a shmup where you have the sound of bullets and explosions going off constantly.

[BIL]

Yamaoka can do action soundtracks when he's bothered. He can't do much of anything when he's not (see Silent Hill 4's patchy audio production compared to the original three).

[Bu11et He11]

Cannot believe this game has got 35+ pages.
Stop talking about it, it's sh!t.

80% of these 35+ pages are from stupid posts like yours.
Why not quit complainingg and actually play and talk about the game's "dreadful" mechanics instead?

Apologies for not being constructive.
Dont get me wrong, I've hammered this game to death trying to find some kind of enjoyment from it, but its a soulless broken game that gives you nothing in return.
Take away the graphically whistles and bells and tell me what your left with....
When the 360s catalogue of shmups is as rich as it is I really don't understand the point of trying to fight a sh!t games cause.
The thing that winds me up most is the media bigging it up into something it's not,
Take edge magazine...8/10 ....wtf. I don't think they realise some people take there reviews seriously.

Udderdude has summed it up.

Aw, man you made us go into page 36

[CStarFlare]

I think part of the problem may be that mainstream reviewers don't go play shmups with the same expectations we do. There are a lot of people who think the genre is unfair or unreasonably difficult by default and aren't able to reliably spot balance issues because of it. Or for whom score seems like nod to the genre's yesteryear influences, not a core part of gameplay.

I suspect most people who gush about Sine Mora or Ikaruga (or any of the others) do so without any intent or interest in mastering the game. When you play with survival or score progression in mind cracks in the game design become possible to see, but credit feeders never turn their bullshit detector on because the whole thing is assumed to be just one of those games that is designed to kill you as much as possible.

[BazookaBen]

I think the music fits the environments in the game. I don't think Grasshopper was going for the super hype Japanese rocking electronica you hear in everything else.

I do agree that it sucks that review sites were going ape shit over this, but not for stuff like Jamestown.

[EmperorIng]

I think he actually did compose music for it, although he was not putting in his best effort, phoning it in, etc.

I don't think that's true, he could very well have done his best for Sine Mora's soundtrack. It's more like how Giga Wing 2's soundtrack feels off; the music style simply doesn't fit the game.

Really? I thought the odd, operatic baroque opera-warble music gave the game a unique flavor. It sort of adds a cinematic flair to the game.

I was really taken aback when I played Giga Wing and it is all HARDCORE 90S COME ON COME ON music. I definitely wasn't expecting it!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Come to think of it, I don't really like Giga Wing 1's soundtrack much either. Game's a lot of fun, but only stage 5 and stage 6 have really good music. Might just be me.

[Udderdude]

I think part of the problem may be that mainstream reviewers don't go play shmups with the same expectations we do. There are a lot of people who think the genre is unfair or unreasonably difficult by default and aren't able to reliably spot balance issues because of it. Or for whom score seems like nod to the genre's yesteryear influences, not a core part of gameplay.

I suspect most people who gush about Sine Mora or Ikaruga (or any of the others) do so without any intent or interest in mastering the game. When you play with survival or score progression in mind cracks in the game design become possible to see, but credit feeders never turn their bullshit detector on because the whole thing is assumed to be just one of those games that is designed to kill you as much as possible.

It's a general trend that no-one, especially not game reviewers, give a crap about a game beyond an extremely shallow level of gameplay in any genre. :(

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It's a general trend that no-one, especially not game reviewers, give a crap about a game beyond an extremely shallow level of gameplay in any genre.

Yeah. Granted, you'll occasionally see a review that's clearly written by someone who knows the genre and that goes in-depth into the mechanics of the game and why it works (or doesn't), but usually that's on a site like GameFAQs where they're not being paid for their opinion. Review sites that try to cate to the mainstream gamer write to attract mainstream tastes (because I guess that's what sells?): keep descriptions simple and focus on shallow elements like graphics over key gameplay nuances.

[renardqueenston]

a lot of this thread seems to echo what i think is a bit of an issue in a lot of niche gaming / other communities (film, music, etc). "there's better, so why bother" is a pretty shallow sentiment in itself. just because something isn't the best or isn't technically sound doesn't mean people aren't going to get enjoyment out of it, and it doesn't detract from the genre as a whole if people do. if "there's better, so why bother" were so true, why is it that so many flawed creative works have established cult followings that appreciate the work as a whole while often understanding the flaws with said work (and possibly how they make the experience what it is)? since giving it a solid go when it came out, i've revisited Sine Mora. while it's still not my thing, i'm beginning to understand why some people would like it. you don't always need super-refined gameplay to enjoy the rest of the experience presented. the devs did pull a lot of pretentious shit when the game launched about being "so innovative" and whatnot that obviously didn't help, but sometimes you have to divorce the artist(s) from their work a bit.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It does have flaws, but what game doesn't?

you don't always need super-refined gameplay to enjoy the rest of the experience presented

The problem is not so much one of design flaw or a dislike or artistic taste; the reason Sine Mora is a depressing experience is because so many of its mistakes are, well, rookie ones. No custom controls? Poor arcade stick support? Broken firing scheme with no built-in autofire?

It'd be like a novelist writing a book except he decides it should be a different language halfway through, thinks punctuation marks are for losers, and then the publisher slaps a pretty cover on it and says "holy shit it's pretty, sell it right now!" without even bothering to have a competent editor proofread or spellcheck to fix some of the most obvious mistakes. The content of the artists' work isn't nearly as much an issue compared to the basic mistakes made with respect to the game engine.

[Special World]

For me, flawed works are still worth playing only if the core thing they bring to the table is completely sound. Like, if you look at a massively flawed game like Deadly Premonition, the reason so many people love it is because the setting and characters are pulled off amazingly. They're totally quirky and fun, and really pull you through the experience, and it doesn't matter that the gameplay is C-class in so many ways. Likewise with a game like Morrowind, the combat is horrible and the levelling system is stupid, but it succeeds totally in its main goal of giving players an enormous, detailed, and interesting open world to explore.

With Sine Mora, there's really no amazing draw to it. The graphics are good but not stellar, the music is bland and mis-matched, the story seems kind of try-hard (I will admit I haven't played through it all), and, like BareknuckleRoo said, there are just tons of flaws with the gameplay system, just absolutely basic mistakes that anybody here could point out immediately. To top it off, they haven't pulled off their advanced mechanics well, and it feels like they're stepping on their own feet constantly. Every single good thing about the game (and there are a number of good qualities for sure) is completely stepped on by something else. A good example is that high-scorers are completely disincentivized from using their cool special weapons, or that rank has jarring shifts between levels, or that the timing system can lead to inevitable game overs that go minutes longer than they should.

[RSG_Spoonparty]

The thing that winds me up most is the media bigging it up into something it's not,
Take edge magazine...8/10 ....wtf. I don't think they realise some people take there reviews seriously.

If it results in more people being introduced into the genre is that such a bad thing? And they are reviewing it from a mainstream perspective, not a hardcore one so they are rating it on different values.

a lot of this thread seems to echo what i think is a bit of an issue in a lot of niche gaming / other communities (film, music, etc). "there's better, so why bother" is a pretty shallow sentiment in itself. just because something isn't the best or isn't technically sound doesn't mean people aren't going to get enjoyment out of it, and it doesn't detract from the genre as a whole if people do.

Yeah, I totally agree. Some of my favourite games of all time weren't the best in their class but they just had something about them which resonated with me which I enjoyed.

[Udderdude]

a lot of this thread seems to echo what i think is a bit of an issue in a lot of niche gaming / other communities (film, music, etc). "there's better, so why bother" is a pretty shallow sentiment in itself. just because something isn't the best or isn't technically sound doesn't mean people aren't going to get enjoyment out of it, and it doesn't detract from the genre as a whole if people do.

Yeah, I totally agree. Some of my favourite games of all time weren't the best in their class but they just had something about them which resonated with me which I enjoyed.

It would be nice if you could point out even one of those things in the game we're talking about. :P

[Bu11et He11]

If it results in more people being introduced into the genre is that such a bad thing? And they are reviewing it from a mainstream perspective, not a hardcore one so they are rating it on different

If the genre is that desperate to grab hold of the mainstream that
It can only gain its attention by offering it either below average or
Broken games that look pretty and have been made by a fashionable
Studio then it deserves to disappear.
I'd rather it struggle along and play nothing but quality.

I'm not asking for classics every time I play a new game, and I
Understand that some people are seeing something in this
Game I'm not but, no matter what audience your writing for
Is this game fooooooook an eight

Five on a nice day. Six if you give me a big bag of cash.

[BazookaBen]

I think the levels and bosses are really fun. Graphics and music are great. That covers a lot of the criteria I need for a good game. The fact that it becomes too unfair at high difficulties doesn't affect me that much because I will have already gotten my money's worth out of it before I play "insane" or whatever.

By the way, I see people here that don't like Ikaruga, or don't like Gradius. Is there any game that most people here agree is good, like DDP or something?

[Animaitor]

The Cho Aniki series.

[Obscura]

Serious answer: DOJ BL, Batrider, Ketsui, Batsugun.

[Bu11et He11]

I think the levels and bosses are really fun. Graphics and music are great. That covers a lot of the criteria I need for a good game

Good for you mate

Not really a regular poster on here so I can't speak for everyone but Obscura has nailed it
With those I'd add Crimzon Clover as well probably.

[Jeneki]

By the way, I see people here that don't like ... Gradius.

Really?

[Obscura]

I think the levels and bosses are really fun. Graphics and music are great. That covers a lot of the criteria I need for a good game

Good for you mate

Not really a regular poster on here so I can't speak for everyone but Obscura has nailed it
With those I'd add Crimzon Clover as well probably.

TLB was pretty vocal in his dislike of Crimzon Clover, and I seem to remember a few other regulars who disliked it.

[CStarFlare]

By the way, I see people here that don't like ... Gradius.

Really?

Fuck checkpoint spawning, and fuck crippling me when I take a hit. It's not an objectively bad game/series, but they certainly made design choices that kill my enthusiasm.

[null1024]

By the way, I see people here that don't like ... Gradius.

Really?

Every time I play a Gradius game, I stop and think "I could be playing R-Type" or something. Seriously.

[ciox]

I think part of the problem may be that mainstream reviewers don't go play shmups with the same expectations we do. There are a lot of people who think the genre is unfair or unreasonably difficult by default and aren't able to reliably spot balance issues because of it. Or for whom score seems like nod to the genre's yesteryear influences, not a core part of gameplay.

I suspect most people who gush about Sine Mora or Ikaruga (or any of the others) do so without any intent or interest in mastering the game. When you play with survival or score progression in mind cracks in the game design become possible to see, but credit feeders never turn their bullshit detector on because the whole thing is assumed to be just one of those games that is designed to kill you as much as possible.

For me, the test is watching a "perfect" superplay of the game, Ikaruga passes the test (just watch SWY play, it's engaging enough), Sine Mora seems to be a crashing bore no matter who's playing. This isn't just a random fact since ultimately that type of play is what you're striving for as soon as you start taking a game seriously.

[exquisite_torture]

a crashing bore

That's my review.

[Bu11et He11]

For me, the test is watching a "perfect" superplay of the game, Ikaruga passes the test (just watch SWY play, it's engaging enough), Sine Mora seems to be a crashing bore no matter who's playing. This isn't just a random fact since ultimately that type of play is what you're striving for as soon as you start taking a game seriously.

^^^^
This.
Best post yet.