Shooting Game Tournament 2006

[The Coop]

For the sake of variation and fairness I feel that FEKA USA should decide what games make it into the poll for Hidden Gem Week instead of Team Germany (Edge) deciding the games once again. As you've seen we have good taste and will take all your suggestions into account.

Nemo has a good idea here. Edge needs a break from this insanity anyways.

I don't think Rob will take anything he dislikes into consideration

[Rob]

Whip Rush is universally considered to not be a hidden gem.

[Icarus]

We have a Hori Week, why not have a Vert Week with random verts in the lineup?

[The Coop]

We have a Hori Week, why not have a Vert Week with random verts in the lineup?

Because verts are far more represented in the shmups world, and this competition thus far... and this site really



And your honor, The Coop feels Rob's comment of "Universally" is far to generalized, as proof exists that others feel differently. Therefore, I move to strike Rob's comment from the record, and have him locked in a room with Uwe Boll until further notice

[Twiddle]

The purpose of people putting down games for gameplay reasons is avoiding games people will get sick of after two days.

Like R-Type Final.

[Icarus]

Like R-Type Final.

I'd rather have a vasectomy than play R-Type Final under tournament conditions.
Score system is borked anyhoo.

[Rob]

OK, so who's going to play all of these suggestions this week and start serious criticism. (No one from Team Old Schoolers can be trusted, but The Coop is free to join FEKA USA next year.)

[The Coop]

My thoughts on a few, despite Rob's objection ...


Air Buster- Not a bad game, and certainly not long. There are sections where there are good sized masses of enemies that come on screen, making it a challenge to get as many of them as you can. The hard part with this, is that the arcade, Genesis and TG-16 ports are a bit different. The amount of enemies in the TG-16 version seems to be less than the Genesis or arcade (especially in stage 2), but I'm not certain just how different the Genesis and arcade versions are. It would come down to "who can blast the most enemies" in the end, though I believe it is possible to milk a boss or two, along with some spots in later stages (assuming the missiles that are shot out by stage 2's boss, and various missile pods, are worth score). I'm for keeping this one if we stick with only a particular version.

Hellfire- As much as I enjoy this game, the scores would all be pretty similar at the end I believe. Every stage has a set amount of enemies, and you're certainly not overwhelmed by their numbers. The end result would probably be scores that were insanely close, and/or tied. It's also a bit drawn out with it's slow pace, which would probably turn a number of players away. While I like it, I'd vote for removing it.

In the Hunt- It is a very slow paced game, but only in the sense of how fast it scrolls. It can get intense despite this, as lots of enemies from the water and the air make for quite a bit of dodging to offset at least some of the slower movement. I'd vote to keep it in.

Assault Suits Valken- Cool SNES game? Yep. A shmup? Not as far as I know. It's more of a cross between "Run 'N Gun" and "Action Platformer", than it is a shmup.

Captain Skyhawk- A fun NES game, but it really is a cakewalk up until the final boss. By the time you get to stage 3 roughly, you're fully powered, and the only way to screw up is not by getting caught up in enemy fire, but by slamming into something. The enemy count isn't particularly high either, so scores would probably be ridiculously similar. I'd vote for removing this one.




I'm still wondering how 1941 is "common", though.

[Rob]

I'd rather play Air Gallet than the stuff in the top tier there, please retract my "mediocre" comment.

[DJ Incompetent]

I'm still wondering how 1941 is "common", though.

Claims on here and I've seen 4 cabs of it in different places throughout my lifetime. Being popular enough for several sequels doesn't help it.

19XX, never heard of it till recently. Not ported either, so how many people really got a chance to play it? Since it still hasn't been mentioned that much for this part, it felt ok to leave it.

You detail your game points well. Excellent work, sir.


@Feka USA
Yeah, lets seize final decision control from the #7 ranked team that had 4 weeks of control leading with a guy that has a proven fair and positive resume for tourney organization. Then give it to the #4 ranked team with members holding as much or more controversial opinions on stuff than the first guy and the team just happens to be well in-range for clenching 2nd place...

You have the power to influence the list right now. You've had all week to use it. This is practically a check & balance goin' on in the name of fairness. Use it. Use it while you still have time.

Worst timing ever to ask that, but it's a good idea as something to talk about to use in '07. Hold the thought for now, guy.

Now I'm really curious if Team Germany was high on the standings, if Edge would have been accused of cheating. Seriously, what the hell. We're sooo close to the end of this. No tourney mutinies just for 4 weeks, k?

OK, so who's going to play all of these suggestions this week and start serious criticism.

Also counting on this lack of great shortlisting to happen. That's why I've been shifting the games that keep getting praise to the top. If I were in Edge's position, I'd play through the top 10-11 main nominations first

Omega Fighter
Nebulas Ray
Thundercross 2
Macross Scrambled Valkyrie
Cybattler
Air Gallet (claimed Mediocre, but asked retracted)
Boogie Wings
Eco Fighters
Vasara
Vasara 2

If I couldn't get 5 out of that, I'd then sample the top lesser nominations that I know have been getting praise but had 1 or two possibly non-concrete objections..or pick and choose an extra one or two that I would feel has a silly objection behind it.
Dragon Breed - 0.1 (questionable scoring? +)
19XX - 1 (clamed common)
Space Manbow - 0.1 (kills most enemies score system)
Cyvern - 0.3 (claimed not hidden)
X-Multiply - 1 (not much scoring. Survival based +)

If my list isn't at 5 still, I'd go back to the regular nominations list and one-by-one research them until I came out with 5 nominations.

But that's just me...


List is updated. Edge, if you want the list 'frozen' from updates at some point, give a shout.

[Rob]

Now I'm really curious if Team Germany was high on the standings, if Edge would have been accused of cheating. Seriously, what the hell. We're sooo close to the end of this. No tourney mutinies just for 4 weeks, k?

Whoa there, nothing of the sort was intended.

Also, I'd be completely fair.

[The Coop]

I have a candidate for the Hidden Gem week. What about Over Horizon for the NES/Famicom?

[sven666]

Vasara
Vasara 2

why are both vasaras in the poll? the first is generally better praised why not just stick with that one alone?.. atleast its weeding out the selection a little without being childish, yes?

and game selection, i think Edge has more than proven himself reliable enough to ride this tourney out! (i applaude his effort).

[Rob]

Gun.Smoke

[Nemo]

I don't think Rob will take anything he dislikes into consideration

Exactly, Rob doesn't like crappy borken shooters, so this would ensure 5 quality games are placed in the poll, and whatever one eventually wins will be a win for everyone. This is no advantage to us personally because we have no way of knowing what game would win, the only advantage is assuring the game that does win isn't junk, which is in everyone's favor. No offense, but we don't need another disaster like Star Force folks.

Now I'm really curious if Team Germany was high on the standings, if Edge would have been accused of cheating. Seriously, what the hell. We're sooo close to the end of this. No tourney mutinies just for 4 weeks, k?

Whoa there, nothing of the sort was intended.

Yeah seriously, no one is talking about cheating here, it's about a different point of view. I wouldn't mind if another team took on the responsibility as long as they had as a strick criterion as us. Choosing games is more than, "ooh I played this game 10 years ago for five minutes, I remember it being fun".

[DEL]

Vasara 2
Xexex
Cyvern

[zakk]

Vasara
Vasara 2

why are both vasaras in the poll? the first is generally better praised why not just stick with that one alone?..

It is? That's...odd

[The Coop]

I don't think Rob will take anything he dislikes into consideration

Exactly, Rob doesn't like crappy borken shooters, so this would ensure 5 quality games are placed in the poll, and whatever one eventually wins will be a win for everyone.

Wasn't Rob the one who didn't like Raizing shmups not too long ago, before "Butwider" got him interested in checking out other shmups from them? A lot of folks like Raizing shmups, and at the time, he didn't seem to. If he had been in charge of this, would Raizing shmups have been considered? Would he have been able to be objective, or would his personal opinions on the game(s) in question at that time resulted in people missing out on too big a chunk of gaming possibilities? Would you be able to be objective, Nemo? Hell, would I for that matter?


Remember, it's not about what you like, what I like, or what Rob likes. It's about a competition where you try to find a game that can be played for whatever the criteria is (score, distance, etc.), and possibly get folks to try something they may not have otherwise. That's part of the fun, and part of the challenge.


And uh... you're kind of pumping up the opinions of you and Rob quite a bit, Nemo. If you believe you guys could do a better job at making choices, feel free to do so when this competition ends. No one says you'd have to wait a full year to do something, and I'm sure folks would happily join... myself included. But for now... can't we all just, get along?

[PlasmaBlooD]

Vasara 2
Xexex
Cyvern

good games

Vasara
Thundercross II
Violent Soldier
Hellfire

[mulletgeezer]

Air Gallet - I think this should go back in the main nominations now Rob seems to have withdrawn his objection. actually i think this game could be one of the best choices for hidden gems week - not that i love it or anything but it has the right attributes to make a good contest and it seems challenging enough to play for a full week.

Xexex - should also go back into the main list as there are no serious objections to this.

Space Manbow - and this one.

Alpha Mission 2 - this is an interesting game but slow paced and not
incredibly fun i think.

Boogie Wings - I like the weirdness but i think the game is rather average.

Omega Fighter - I've played this a bit now. It seems ok for an old game but it didn't strike me as anything special. I have to wonder if nostalgia is warping people's opinion on this one a bit. I'd like to know what others who haven't played before think of this game.

[DEL]

mulletgeezer - Air Gallet is very questionable on sprite collision/hitbox. A bit dodgy in my view .

I repeat;

Xexex
Vasara 2
& Cyvern

[Randorama]

Omega Fighter - I've played this a bit now. It seems ok for an old game but it didn't strike me as anything special. I have to wonder if nostalgia is warping people's opinion on this one a bit. I'd like to know what others who haven't played before think of this game.

Dive into a storm of bullets and get an higher multiplier the closer you are to enemies! That's it, risk/reward score mechanic, not much else to add.

[Twiddle]

Vasara
Vasara 2

why are both vasaras in the poll? the first is generally better praised why not just stick with that one alone?..

It is? That's...odd

Yeah, I'd have to say that Vasara 2 has an actual scoring system and is the better regarded of the two for that alone.

[Edge]

In the beginning I didn't think that the game selection will be that controversial. As I remember we had some "strange" games on Ramus' shmeets and not so much complaints about them. Well, I try to get only games that are well suited for a competition. (As far as it can be judged sometimes) And I still think Star Force for instance is not broken or boring. I can see why people dislike it and I have to admit the cleopatra bonus value was not that balanced. Though some find Rank in Raizing games sometimes not "balanced". But most complaints about Star Force i.e. big hitbox, no fixed level layout does not make the game bad. They may not like this kind of gameplay, but the game itself offers enough for a scoring competition.

You may wonder why we even had a Retro Week, when we have some players which don't like these kind of shmups at all. Well, we discussed the themes for the weeks before. I thought it would be a good idea to have well known and respected games in the competition (Raizing, Psikyo, Cave) and also try to have some no "mainstream" (for this site) shmups. Which have some love, like retro games or Doujin games or other types of shmups. That was the whole idea.

Despite that I think people become far too concerned about which games get picked, you get a poll per theme with multiple choices to choose from. And we had none broken or bad games so far.
Broken games means to me:
Game is too easy. Half of the board could finish the game and there is nothing much else to gain points from.)

Infinte scoring exploits: Boss milking or in the game, you can collect an extra life and infinity times kill yourself, warp which sets you back to a prior point. (BTW: the prior reccomended Over Horizon suffers from that in the final stage.)

All other things like Rank Control or scoring only depends on survival are part of the scoring mechanism in the game. That's at least how I have judged it for the competition. Because some people do like these kind of scoring system.

But I have also thought to get some small committee to organize future competitions and deciding together what games will be listed in the poll. First: One person alone can't really go through all votes and clarify if these games would be well suited. Also, the game selection would offcourse be more thought through if a non biased communication went on between members of these committee.

[zinger]

Thunder Dragon 2!

[Smraedis]

Mars Matrix for Cave week please!

I think a game like 19XX or Omega Fighter (special) should be chosen, their scoring systems blow Psikyo out of the water.

[Nemo]

I don't think Rob will take anything he dislikes into consideration

Exactly, Rob doesn't like crappy borken shooters, so this would ensure 5 quality games are placed in the poll, and whatever one eventually wins will be a win for everyone.

Wasn't Rob the one who didn't like Raizing shmups not too long ago, before "Butwider" got him interested in checking out other shmups from them? A lot of folks like Raizing shmups, and at the time, he didn't seem to. If he had been in charge of this, would Raizing shmups have been considered? Would he have been able to be objective, or would his personal opinions on the game(s) in question at that time resulted in people missing out on too big a chunk of gaming possibilities? Would you be able to be objective, Nemo? Hell, would I for that matter?


Remember, it's not about what you like, what I like, or what Rob likes. It's about a competition where you try to find a game that can be played for whatever the criteria is (score, distance, etc.), and possibly get folks to try something they may not have otherwise. That's part of the fun, and part of the challenge.


And uh... you're kind of pumping up the opinions of you and Rob quite a bit, Nemo. If you believe you guys could do a better job at making choices, feel free to do so when this competition ends. No one says you'd have to wait a full year to do something, and I'm sure folks would happily join... myself included. But for now... can't we all just, get along?

Whoa, I'm not trying to create a conflict here, I have nothing but respect for Edge and the amount of time and effort he has put into this. I'm just saying one person is still one person, so even if someone has the best of intentions, unless everything is fully researched it may not work out for the best. I know it's impossible to please everyone in terms of game choices, but there should at least not be games that are borken in the mix, obviously I'm going back to Star Force again, which was the best of that lot. And the reason I bring this up is I forsee another possible predictament this week where the theme of the week takes precedence over choosing a good set of games. Rob, the rest of my team, and myself are all mature enough to put personal preferences aside for the sake of competition, and it would be foolish for us to do anything to taint it. The thing is I were to choose games for competition I'm more likely to choose games I personally don't like to force myself to become better at them. At the same time, I wouldn't choose games that are flat out garbage.

If I were to choose the games I would:

1. Make sure they're challenging enough that most people won't finish it and it has some semblance of a scoring system. So there aren't 50 people with clears and basically the same score.

2. Make sure the games are actually enjoyable by most people, if people are going to be playing the same game over and over that shouldn't be a dreadful experience. (ex: no games with really long levels or games with only one or two parts in the game that account for a good score)

3. Not so much in developer weeks like Cave and Raizing, but in the other weeks I would make sure the game is available in MAME and has a home port to give the most people the opportunity to participate.

[BulletMagnet]

Yeah, I'd have to say that Vasara 2 has an actual scoring system and is the better regarded of the two for that alone.

Huh? Both have scoring systems based on the melee attack, except that the first one emphasizes killing multiple enemies with a single attack, while the second just wants you to kill as many as you can without either dying or breaking the chain by cancelling a bullet without damaging something: in addition, since its main scoring mechanic is chain-based, people might get frustrated by largely ruining their score run with a single death or whiffed weapon strike (in the first game this isn't nearly as much of an issue). It's also worth noting that Vasara 2 emphasizes boss milking, which people might not want to bother any more with for the tournament. Aside from that, both have the same "flashing items" and "prestige kills" systems at work too.

Either one would be a good choice, imo (if nothing else they meet all of Nemo's aforementioned characteristics, if you want to put any weight on those).

[Twiddle]

Yeah, I'd have to say that Vasara 2 has an actual scoring system and is the better regarded of the two for that alone.

It's also worth noting that Vasara 2 emphasizes boss milking, which people might not want to bother any more with for the tournament.

One or two stages in which it's viable, and usually (one of) the first two. You get to dodge things while doing it too, unlike Blazing Star!

Bosses also have some passive damage dealt to them -- disallowing infinite milking.

[BulletMagnet]

Yeah, though I still figured it was worth mentioning, since some complained about it in Blazing Star in particular.