XRGB-3

[em0ti0n]

A wiki would be best IMO.

Agree!

I have some thoughts

Recommended settings per source/console

N64 - S-Video cable is missing
Dreamcast - for VGA LPF should be off
Recommended sharpness for Saturn/Playstation/Playstation 2 (240p source) is 0 (my opinion)
Also Playstation/Playstation 2 (240p source) I would mark RGB SCART as the best video quality, YUV for 480i/480p

Awesome work and very promising too
Thanks!

[Artemio]

I also believe a wiki is the best way to go. I set up one at:

http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/

Please feel free to start filling it up. I didn't start already since it is somewhat late here and the PDF file didn't allow copy paste.

[akumajo]

ah cool, i will start to export the latest pdf version to wiki when i'm back at home

[Konsolkongen]

You should also add that LPF should be OFF whenever possible as it softens the picture a bit. If the picture however is unstable, flickering or has jailbars when set to OFF then it should definitely be ON.

Apparently it differs from console to console and cable used(?). For my Saturn the LPF has to be ON otherwise i get ugly jailbars but Fudoh's and RGB32E's Saturns supposedly looks fine without the LPF setting. On the other hand my MegaDrive looks great with the LPF OFF where others MD's looks bad

[akumajo]

well, maybe we should be more accurate

[CONSOLE - SERIAL][REGION][CABLE - SERIAL]
console region / cable used (no name, official, custom)

exemple :

[PlayStation - SCPH-1000] [JAPAN] [Official RGB cable - SCPH-1050] -> XRGB-3 recommanded setting ...
[PlayStation - SCPH-3000] [USA] [No Name RGB cable - n/a] -> XRGB-3 recommanded setting ...


edit : ok started to edit but i never used wiki in the past
edit 2 : main link : http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/XRGB
XRGB-3 link : http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/XRGB-3

[Konsolkongen]

You could also just leave the recommended settings chart as is and add that the LPF setting might differ from console to console. There are at least 10 different motherboard revisions of the Saturn so it would take forever to fill out the chart. Point is you should leave LPF OFF when possible

EDIT: I have almost no wiki knowledge either but other that the chart frames missing it looks good so far

[Artemio]

Fixed the wikitable and added Common templates. Just refresh the page to see the changes.

[em0ti0n]

Important : about GAME IN input (21 pin SCART RGB) solutions -> cable adapter or XRGB mod)

in my opinion the solutions would be in order:

1. japanese layout RGB SCART if exists - to my knowledge it does for PSX, Saturn, not sure about SNES (and other consoles) though
2. SCART EU -> JPN layout adaptor
3. rewire GAME IN input from JPN -> EU layout, so it will accept EU SCART lead (XRGB mod)

(it is also more "user-friendly" in the very same order - for users without soldering etc. skills)

may be useful to mention JPN SCART layout http://www.gamesx.com/avpinouts/rgb21pinj.htm

[Fudoh]

but note that the japanese Scart layout on gamesx.com has the Left and Right audio channels exchanged with each other....

[Konsolkongen]

I made this illustration last year that shows how to rewire the RGBs-in for EU cables:



I tried to scan an image of my remote for the remote translation but it turned out a little blurry :/

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/9061/xrgbremote.png

[RGB32E]

I made this illustration last year that shows how to rewire the RGBs-in for EU cables:



I tried to scan an image of my remote for the remote translation but it turned out a little blurry :/

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/9061/xrgbremote.png

ICK! rewiring the 21 pin connector on the XRGB-3? I'd imagine that this is completely reversible with a new 21 pin connector. I'd rather build or rewire the cables personally.

[RGB32E]

Important : about GAME IN input (21 pin SCART RGB) solutions -> cable adapter or XRGB mod)

in my opinion the solutions would be in order:

1. japanese layout RGB SCART if exists - to my knowledge it does for PSX, Saturn, not sure about SNES (and other consoles) though
2. SCART EU -> JPN layout adaptor
3. rewire GAME IN input from JPN -> EU layout, so it will accept EU SCART lead (XRGB mod)

(it is also more "user-friendly" in the very same order - for users without soldering etc. skills)

may be useful to mention JPN SCART layout http://www.gamesx.com/avpinouts/rgb21pinj.htm

+1. Rewiring the 21 pin input (GAME) seems like a really bad idea. But for me, I don't have any devices that accept SCART RGB (due to my location), so buying the JP21 cables, or building ones wired for JP21 makes a lot more sense!

Official JP21 RGB cables exist for the SNES, Saturn, Playstation, and Neo Geo. The official Saturn RGB cable is horrible. The cable is WAY too long for the type of conductors it uses. I believe it's the same length as the official Nintendo cables, but uses plain insulated wires + metal braid instead of mini coax. I suppose if the saturn cable was cut in half, and reterminated, the picture might improve. Or if they had used metal foil in addition to the metail braid for the outer shielding, that might have reduced/removed the noise issue with the cable. Turning on LPF removes all of the noise....

Also, for RGB, different system revisions can give different quality output. I've yet to find my oval button Saturn, but I believe that oval button (earlier) Saturns give better RGB output than round button (newer) ones.

The opposite seems to be true of the US SNES. My older SNES (from early '92) has softer, and darker RGB output than my newer SNES systems (original style wo/cart lock mech, and RGB modded SNES 2/mini). The only side effect of newer systems is that there is very faint ghosting to the right of high contrast things (character against a solid background).

[Konsolkongen]

You cannot open the original SEGA Saturn RGBs cable and adapters is not an option for me. I would not risk the chance that one of my friends accidentally plugged in another console without the adapter cable = fried XRGB input.

I don't see how rewiring the input is a bad thing. It's easy and the safest thing to do when all you have is EU cables... There is also a lot of guides on how you resolder an XRGB2 for EU cables, its pretty much the same thing IMO.

[RGB32E]

You cannot open the original SEGA Saturn RGBs cable and adapters is not an option for me. I would not risk the chance that one of my friends accidentally plugged in another console without the adapter cable = fried XRGB input.

I don't see how rewiring the input is a bad thing. It's easy and the safest thing to do when all you have is EU cables... There is also a lot of guides on how you resolder an XRGB2 for EU cables, its pretty much the same thing IMO.

If you have a mix of JP/SCART RGB cables laying around, I could see the potential hazard, point taken... It just not something I would want to do to my XRGB-3, as the safe guard isn't needed, and I'd imagine that PQ could be degraded.

Like I said, either I use the official cable, or build my own, since I do not live where 21 pin RGB has a standard (I'm not in the EU or JP).

[akumajo]

i think that we should talk about both solution (xrgb3 mod and cable mods) and let user decide

[Artemio]

I agree we should cover all topics, we would just need to segment the page, right? Not only to separate this issues, but we'll need to manage the growth and split it thematically.

[akumajo]

yes for segmenting the page (what do you suggest exactly?)

i'm busy for some time currently (creating sheet with wiki is horrible :p)

[Konsolkongen]

It just not something I would want to do to my XRGB-3, as the safe guard isn't needed, and I'd imagine that PQ could be degraded.

Like I said, either I use the official cable, or build my own, since I do not live where 21 pin RGB has a standard (I'm not in the EU or JP).

Understandable PQ did degrade when i first got the XRGB3 and used an adapter cable. After rewiring the input the picture quality is great still and just as good as the D2 input in the back, even better actually as i get strange noise when using my Saturn with D2 (tried two different VGA to RGBs cables).

EDIT: About the wiki. I could hook up the XRGB-3 to my desktop monitor tomorrow and try to describe what functions the PCinP buttons on the remote has. Unless of course someone reads Japanese and can translate from the manual, that would probably be better

[RGB32E]

Understandable PQ did degrade when i first got the XRGB3 and used an adapter cable. After rewiring the input the picture quality is great still and just as good as the D2 input in the back, even better actually as i get strange noise when using my Saturn with D2 (tried two different VGA to RGBs cables).

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out the whole Saturn RGB bit. When using any combo of HW and RGB cable on my PVM-2030, the PQ didn't seem to vary. On the XRGB-3, everything changed! I have two Saturn RGB cables, Official JP21 RGB, and a customized generic SCART RGB cable (uses CSYNC instead of Composite). The generic cable was cut short and soldered to a DB9F, since the cable only has a thin foil wrapping for shielding. From there I have better quality coax cable for the audio, and better shielded cabling for RGB to a HDDB15M (VGA) connector. With both cables (modded to D2, official to GAME) I get picture noise in 480i (menus), and jail bars otherwise (240p). More so with the official cable. However, when playing Radiant Silvergun, I get virtually no noise in game (D2 with incorrect separate sync setting)! However, other games have the same jail bars... ugg. I wonder if beefing up the sync (adding hex buffer) and filter caps and/or ferrite beeds would improve RGB output from round button Saturn systems?

I guess I "really" need to track down my oval button to see the topology differences for RGB between the two series.

[RGB32E]

but note that the japanese Scart layout on gamesx.com has the Left and Right audio channels exchanged with each other....

The Gamesx Wiki has the corrected pinout (http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:japanese_rgb-21). I sent mail to Lawrence to get that corrected...

[Konsolkongen]

Never tried my oval button Saturn on the XRGB-3 but when i used it on my tv the picture was shaking a little bit. Round buttoned one looked fine. I have tried two 3rd party cables beside the original SEGA and they both looked like s... compared to the original. Still the picture is not as nice and sharp as the MegaDrive 2 cable i made myself. A damn shame that you can't buy those 10pin minidin connectors in a local electronic supply store :/

[Sabishii Hito]

EDIT: About the wiki. I could hook up the XRGB-3 to my desktop monitor tomorrow and try to describe what functions the PCinP buttons on the remote has. Unless of course someone reads Japanese and can translate from the manual, that would probably be better

It seems to be a picture-in-picture feature that is only accessible when you have a PC connected to the PC input on the XRGB-3 with the PC as the active input; it can display the image from another input as a PinP window. So far I haven't been able to get it working.

The buttons on the remote that center around the PCinP on/off button control the horizontal and vertical positioning of the PCinP window as well as the size. The four round buttons in the 4 corners will display the window in the corresponding areas of the screen (upper left, lower left, upper right, lower right). The left/right arrows control the horizontal position and the up down ones control the vertical position. The 小 button decreases the size of the window while the 大 button increases the size.

[Konsolkongen]

Strange it worked very well the last time i tried it. I expect it to be pretty much plug and play, like last time, when i test it again tomorrow.

[RGB32E]

Never tried my oval button Saturn on the XRGB-3 but when i used it on my tv the picture was shaking a little bit. Round buttoned one looked fine. I have tried two 3rd party cables beside the original SEGA and they both looked like s... compared to the original. Still the picture is not as nice and sharp as the MegaDrive 2 cable i made myself. A damn shame that you can't buy those 10pin minidin connectors in a local electronic supply store :/

LOL... my experience with a generic Saturn S-Video cable is what led me to cut it short... and use better cables for the distance. For instance, the generic cable showed interference, so I shortend the cable to less than half a foot, terminated with female connectors, and used real cables to my TV and stereo. So, making a S-Video breakout cable fixed the interference problem!

So, all is perfect with an official Japanese Saturn RGB cable? No noise, or are you using LPF? Like I said, there are only particular instances where I get virtually no noise from the Sega Saturn RGB when using the XRGB-3. Perhaps I'll make an even shorter RGB breakout cable.

Another thought.... The Sega Saturn typically used the Sony CXA1645M RGB encoder, right? Has anyone checked to see if both the 75 ohm resistor and 220uF capacitor exist on the RGB outputs from the CXA (that go to the 10 pin mini din)? Perhaps Sega didn't put the 220uF caps in the newer systems (resulting in interference)? I'd better go and confirm my suspicion!!!

You might be able to sample out up to 5 of these:
http://www.4uconnector.com/online/Searc ... word=17404

or, if you can find any Saturn cables will all 10 pins, you could cut off the plastic molded hood and source connectors that way... I'll be doing one or both of these things in the near future.

[Fudoh]

So, all is perfect with an official Japanese Saturn RGB cable? No noise, or are you using LPF?

Just for reference: Oval Button Saturn (Hitachi) plus official japanese RGB cable -> probably the best RGB signal from any system I got, absolutely flawless.
Round Button Saturn (Hitachi) plus official japanese RGB cable -> slight wave on top and light jailbars, LPF needed.

Perhaps Sega didn't put the 220uF caps in the newer systems (resulting in interference)? I'd better go and confirm my suspicion!!!

would be interesting as I really like my newer Saturns and only bought the older one recently for checking with the XRGB.

[Konsolkongen]

So, all is perfect with an official Japanese Saturn RGB cable? No noise, or are you using LPF? Like I said, there are only particular instances where I get virtually no noise from the Sega Saturn RGB when using the XRGB-3. Perhaps I'll make an even shorter RGB breakout cable.

As i said i have only ever used EU cables with my XRGB3. Earlier on this page i wrote this

Apparently it differs from console to console and cable used(?). For my Saturn the LPF has to be ON otherwise i get ugly jailbars but Fudoh's and RGB32E's Saturns supposedly looks fine without the LPF setting. On the other hand my MegaDrive looks great with the LPF OFF where others MD's looks bad

[RGB32E]

I just did a comparision between two round button Saturns. Both had jail bars, but one (the main one I've been using) is WAY worse than the other. Each RB Saturn was manufactured in different countries! The crappier of the two was mfg'ed in September of 1996 in the Phillipeans, and the better of the two was mfg'ed in June of 1996 in Malaysia. I had to unscrew all screws to get at the main PCB to check out the encoder. The Phillipeno Saturn has a stinkin' MB3516A encoder! I haven't opened the Malaysian Saturn yet....

I did notice that some of the caps in the system were slightly buldging at the top. There isn't much clearance so, you have to use electrolytics that are fairly short -> >=7mm tall. There were the 75 ohm chip resistors followed by 220uF caps on the RGB output of the Phillipeno Saturn. The 220uF cap for Green out had two buldging points in the center (same alignment as the radial through hole leads), so I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to replace the THR electrolytic caps and see what happens! I also have 3 CXA2075M chips which are drop in replacements for the MB3516A... I guess if replacing the caps doesn't work....

So, I don't think the variations in RGB quality are strictly related to round button vs oval button (RB vs OB). However, perhaps all of the OBs used Sony encoders instead of Fujitsu (or whoever).... damn... I guess I'll see if a cap replacement works for the RGB and DC decoupling cap makes a difference... uggg...

[RGB32E]

As i said i have only ever used EU cables with my XRGB3. Earlier on this page i wrote this

Apparently it differs from console to console and cable used(?). For my Saturn the LPF has to be ON otherwise i get ugly jailbars but Fudoh's and RGB32E's Saturns supposedly looks fine without the LPF setting. On the other hand my MegaDrive looks great with the LPF OFF where others MD's looks bad

Sorry, I've forgotten! Check out my last post... I'm interested in tracking the differences between systems. A RB Saturn made in one country looks way better (though not still perfect) than another country...! Many screws await my investigation!

[Konsolkongen]

I hope you figure it out. Playing without LPF would be nice

[akumajo]

indeed, it seems that japanese saturn output quality is different (country / model)

on my White Saturn, S-Video cable = RGB cable (same quality)

edit : finished to export pdf to wiki, let's start phase 2 now ...