The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[trap15]

Slowdown should be Wait Control on. I think

[Obscura]

So, what can I do to "learn" how to deal with a spot consistently if it's not a pattern that's aimed in any way?

Those damn "huge spinning merry-go-rounds" at the start of DOJ stage 3 are slaughtering me. I've learned that if I laser on the edge of one that the pattern is a lot thinner out there and overlaps a lot less than if I try to stay right under its center (although I don't understand why this is the case, I would think that a spiral pattern would hit equally everywhere), but I still die entirely too much to those assholes, even after an insane amount of savestate practice.

Get better, you are supposed to dodge these head on

Yeah, no disrespect or sarcasm intended but there's no trick to that part. You just dodge it.

I honestly think DOJ may be a bit too hard for you right now, and I'm not trying to discourage you at all. When I first played DOJ way back when I just could not enjoy it because it constantly had me in over my head after the first stage more or less. It was just so far beyond my abilities that it wasn't fun at all. It wasn't until I came back to it years later (when it became available on mame) that I started actually making progress and understanding it. Once I'd built up general skills that come just from time spent playing STGs I was able to learn more meaningful things from DOJ. It was actually my occasional sessions with it that helped me understand pattern reading and hitbox awareness well enough to finally complete the first loop of DDP (which is, incidentally, why the I DID IT thread exists).

I think you should set this game aside for a bit and play something else. As long as you're playing you'll be improving, and playing different games helps you develop general skills by having to apply them in various ways rather than repeatedly applying them to the same scenario. I also think that a game with a slightly milder learning curve would help you progress a bit more efficiently.

Don't think that if you set the game aside the time you put into it will have been wasted, you'll still remember most of the important stuff you've learned when you come back to it.

Honestly, I've tried other games, and aside from Espgaluda (which has pacing far too awful to consider playing seriously; why the fuck did they think having a second stage that takes like 5 hours was ok?), I haven't noticed any real difficulty difference between DOJ and anything else.

I mean, I can get further in DDP, but that's mainly because the game gifts you with so many bombs that I can just bomb my way through the 3rd boss and 4th stage before dying in the fifth, as opposed to DOJ where I'll never have more than two bombs. But playing it "legitimately"? If anything, it's harder than what I've seen of DOJ; the third boss is harder than any boss or midboss in DOJ's first 4 stages by far, and between those tanks that shoot the narrow pink lines directly under them so that you cant hit them, and the big-ass planes that appear towards the end of the level, the fourth stage is a total bomb-fest.

[Illyrian]

Touhou on easy
Touhou on normal
Blue Wish Resurrection

Play these, then bother with games like Dojball.

Seriously, or you're just gonna frustrate yourself

[Obscura]

I have 1cc'd IN on normal and BWR+.

[Illyrian]

You should play Subterranean Animism and UFO, they're the toughest in the series and best balanced as well.

I do get your frustration with DOJ though, it can seem very overwhelming at times.

[Obscura]

Subterranean Animism is actually the game that drove me away from Touhou.

I really hate almost every aspect of that game. I can't stand the score system, I hate the 1-up system, the stages are too fucking long, its ugly as fuck, and its music is insanely downbeat and depressing. It's a shame that some of the cooler bosses were wasted in... that.

[iconoclast]

I mean, I can get further in DDP, but that's mainly because the game gifts you with so many bombs that I can just bomb my way through the 3rd boss and 4th stage before dying in the fifth, as opposed to DOJ where I'll never have more than two bombs.

Which character are you using? Play Shotia if you want lots of bombs.

[Obscura]

I'm using A-Exy. I found myself favoring her early on, since I usually didn't know when I was fucked well enough to bomb in time.

Plus, with hypers, having both shot + laser benefits seems better than more bombs.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Honestly, I've tried other games, and aside from Espgaluda (which has pacing far too awful to consider playing seriously; why the fuck did they think having a second stage that takes like 5 hours was ok?)

Wait, what? Sorry, but that's bullshit; stupid reason to dismiss Espgaluda. Takes roughly just over three and a half minutes to beat the stage. This is comparable to stage 2 in other Cave games. Heck, Guwange's stage 2 can take 4 minutes to do if you kill the boss's legs for the coins. Besides, it's pretty fun - if you're scoring well in Espgaluda you can nab the first 1up quite early here. I think you're just used to DDP or DOJ which both have somewhat shorter stage 2s...

Subterranean Animism is actually the game that drove me away from Touhou.

How does one game drive you away from an entire series? The PC 98 games are quite fun (not too bad to clear on Lunatic either), not to mention most of the Windows-era games as well. Heck, there's a lot of people who aren't fond of Ten Desires (due to the scoring being largely "play Marisa, bomb everything", lol) but it's not like everyone thinks all Touhou games are shit just because a few aren't as impressive. That'd be like hating the entire *pachi series just because you didn't like DonPachi.

[Drachenherz]

I'm using A-Exy. I found myself favoring her early on, since I usually didn't know when I was fucked well enough to bomb in time.

Plus, with hypers, having both shot + laser benefits seems better than more bombs.

Learn to bomb. It can stretch your credit by a very large margin.

There's nothing worse than dying when you could have bombed.

[NzzpNzzp]

I'm using A-Exy. I found myself favoring her early on, since I usually didn't know when I was fucked well enough to bomb in time.

Plus, with hypers, having both shot + laser benefits seems better than more bombs.

You know how it says expert when you go to select her? That's because she's for experts. Like you're not.

Also learn to bomb.

[Zengeku3]

I have 1cc'd IN on normal and BWR+.

Then go for Hard and Lunatic modes. It's actually fairly good practice. SA and UFO Lunatic both has a lot of patterns that are considerably more difficult than Cave 1st round stuff. And the same applies for a lot of the others in the series really.

[Despatche]

Unfortunately for you all, I feel like posting again.

(which has pacing far too awful to consider playing seriously; why the fuck did they think having a second stage that takes like 5 hours was ok?)

Because it is. You haven't gotten anywhere near Espgaluda's real problem.

If anything, it's harder than what I've seen of DOJ; the third boss is harder than any boss or midboss in DOJ's first 4 stages by far, and between those tanks that shoot the narrow pink lines directly under them so that you cant hit them, and the big-ass planes that appear towards the end of the level, the fourth stage is a total bomb-fest.

Both that boss and that stage are a lot easier than they look. DOJ stage 4 trumps both, and is more comparable to DDP stage 5 than anything else.

the stages are too fucking long

...Not really!

and its music is insanely downbeat and depressing

When that's part of the game's point, I'm not sure you "get" to talk about "shame" and "waste".

I'm using A-Exy. I found myself favoring her early on, since I usually didn't know when I was fucked well enough to bomb in time.

Plus, with hypers, having both shot + laser benefits seems better than more bombs.

Good. Yes, Exy's positives always outweigh the negatives.

(Please don't leave DOJ, it loves you more than anything else will)

(It will be better than DDP foreverrrrrrrrr)

[spineshark]

(Please don't leave DOJ, it loves you more than anything else will)

Oh, you're into that kind of thing.

TH11 had some cool things going on (mostly the last two bosses) but it was pretty much everything I already didn't like about the series and more. It pretty easily convinced me that there were a lot of other shmups I'd rather spend time on than Touhou though, so at least it's got that going for it.

[Zengeku3]

DOJ stage 4 trumps both, and is more comparable to DDP stage 5 than anything else.

Really? I think that DDP Stage 5 is considerably harder than any stage in first loop DOJ and I had the idea that this was a pretty wide-spread opinion.

Or is that just me?

[Despatche]

Oh, you're into that kind of thing.

No, I just know better. DOJ is exactly the kind of game you could call "perfect" and "for anyone", and there are still some things I'd change about it.

[Obscura]

Wait, what? Sorry, but that's bullshit; stupid reason to dismiss Espgaluda. Takes roughly just over three and a half minutes to beat the stage. This is comparable to stage 2 in other Cave games. Heck, Guwange's stage 2 can take 4 minutes to do if you kill the boss's legs for the coins. Besides, it's pretty fun - if you're scoring well in Espgaluda you can nab the first 1up quite early here. I think you're just used to DDP or DOJ which both have somewhat shorter stage 2s...

Did you watch that vid? That was 4 minutes, with bombing out the midboss, and a ton of overmode. Without bombing out the midboss, that would have been more like 5 minutes.

You know how it says expert when you go to select her? That's because she's for experts. Like you're not.

Also learn to bomb.

Actually, when I select her, it says "Shot + Laser". It only says "Expert" on the high score screen. But, really, as far as I can tell, A-Exy is the only sane choice. The shot types have extra bombs... just so that they can blow them on harder bossfights (can Stage 3 boss's "back and forth" pattern in the first form even be dodged by a shot type without switching away from laser?), A Laser has a shot so narrow that I can't chain anything, and B Laser is slow as fuck.

When that's part of the game's point, I'm not sure you "get" to talk about "shame" and "waste".

So if I make a game that's terrible on purpose and say "but being terrible is a part of the game's point!", that means that no one gets to talk about the game being terrible?

[AntiFritz]

(can Stage 3 boss's "back and forth" pattern in the first form even be dodged by a shot type without switching away from laser?)

I don't see the problem...

[Obscura]

Shot types are slower when using laser than laser types are. A-L already has to hold the direction down to get through the last corridor. A shot type isn't going to be fast enough to do that.

[AntiFritz]

I don't see the problem with swapping from laser to shot for like 2 seconds.

[O. Van Bruce]

Wait, what? Sorry, but that's bullshit; stupid reason to dismiss Espgaluda. Takes roughly just over three and a half minutes to beat the stage. This is comparable to stage 2 in other Cave games. Heck, Guwange's stage 2 can take 4 minutes to do if you kill the boss's legs for the coins. Besides, it's pretty fun - if you're scoring well in Espgaluda you can nab the first 1up quite early here. I think you're just used to DDP or DOJ which both have somewhat shorter stage 2s...

Did you watch that vid? That was 4 minutes, with bombing out the midboss, and a ton of overmode. Without bombing out the midboss, that would have been more like 5 minutes.

You know how it says expert when you go to select her? That's because she's for experts. Like you're not.

Also learn to bomb.

Actually, when I select her, it says "Shot + Laser". It only says "Expert" on the high score screen. But, really, as far as I can tell, A-Exy is the only sane choice. The shot types have extra bombs... just so that they can blow them on harder bossfights (can Stage 3 boss's "back and forth" pattern in the first form even be dodged by a shot type without switching away from laser?), A Laser has a shot so narrow that I can't chain anything, and B Laser is slow as fuck.

When that's part of the game's point, I'm not sure you "get" to talk about "shame" and "waste".

So if I make a game that's terrible on purpose and say "but being terrible is a part of the game's point!", that means that no one gets to talk about the game being terrible?

Obscura, please, don't become a second Doctor Trouser Plank... wanna try that skype thing I mentioned previously? search me by my nick.

[third_strike]

I mean, I can get further in DDP, but that's mainly because the game gifts you with so many bombs that I can just bomb my way through the 3rd boss and 4th stage before dying in the fifth, as opposed to DOJ where I'll never have more than two bombs.

But DOJBL gives to you a lot of hypers to spam during stages.
Hypers = Bombs.

[Deca]

A Laser has a shot so narrow that I can't chain anything

I watched your replays, chaining is not something you are prepared to task yourself with. If you need huge spread to chain then your routes are either bad or wrong, by all accounts chaining is actually easier with a narrow spread.

[O. Van Bruce]

I mean, I can get further in DDP, but that's mainly because the game gifts you with so many bombs that I can just bomb my way through the 3rd boss and 4th stage before dying in the fifth, as opposed to DOJ where I'll never have more than two bombs.

But DOJBL gives to you a lot of hypers to spam during stages.
Hypers = Bombs.

Not exactly... if you are aiming for a survival, you may want to hyper the minimum or the rank could go up like crazy.

[Obscura]

Obscura, please, don't become a second Doctor Trouser Plank... wanna try that skype thing I mentioned previously? search me by my nick.

I don't have a mic or know how to use skype.

I also don't quite see how disliking Espgaluda and Subterranean Animism for reasons that have nothing to do with their difficulty is DTP-like, but ok.

I watched your replays, chaining is not something you are prepared to task yourself with. If you need huge spread to chain then your routes are either bad or wrong, by all accounts chaining is actually easier with a narrow spread.

If chaining is easier with a narrow spread, then why on earth do superplayers use A-Exy instead of A-Laser? B-S and B-E are probably too wide, sure, but to an extent, having a shot that's not super narrow seems helpful. The only other reason I can come up with to use A-Exy is because the damage from its shot is super useful in Stage 4's "diagonal moving tank train" section, since you can take down the big ships quickly while moving around enough to set up a cutback for the next "train".

Also, according to everything I've ever read, the way to get better is to play for score. Which, in DOJ's case, means chaining.

Also, since you've watched my replays, do you have any advice other than "you suck too much to chain, give up"? Any fundamental skills that I am obviously missing without knowing it?

[Barrakketh]

If chaining is easier with a narrow spread, then why on earth do superplayers use A-Exy instead of A-Laser?

Easier/quicker to get maximum bonus, AFAIK.

And I think that Exy might have a lower speed penalty when using the laser compared to S/L.

[Randorama]

Any fundamental skills that I am obviously missing without knowing it?

Patience and self-control when posting on this forum.

[Deca]

If chaining is easier with a narrow spread, then why on earth do superplayers use A-Exy instead of A-Laser?

Activate Maximum bonus faster, faster move speed when lasering, and more power to kill larger enemies quickly. Also bosses likely go down slightly faster which is handy at higher rank. I'm not sure about this part but I feel like Exy may have a slightly longer chain period or get hypers a bit faster or something like that. I can't say for certain because I've spent very little time using anything other than A-Exy.

Also, since you've watched my replays, do you have any advice other than "you suck too much to chain, give up"? Any fundamental skills that I am obviously missing without knowing it?

Unfortunately it seems to mostly be what I mentioned before, skills and understanding that only come from a lot of time spent playing. I could give you situational advice on the replays but I'm sure it would mostly be things that you could see yourself while going over it. The issue is developing the reflexes and being able to see through the patterns and understand how to manipulate them while playing, which is unfortunately very hard to teach. If you're really serious about sticking with DOJ shoot me a PM and I'll go over the replays with you as in depth as I can, I'm certainly nowhere near exceptional at the game but I should be able to help somewhat.

I really do think that you should throw credits at other games, spend some sessions playing different stuff. You don't have to drop DOJ and focus on something else, but as I said just playing a lot of different stuff will help you advance your skillset. Try some of the later Psikyo games and Raizing stuff, it doesn't all have to be Cave or Touhou.

[RNGmaster]

The only shmups that don't seem like pure memo-grinds at this point - games that are actually fun and frantic - are Ketsui and Hellsinker. This is a greivance because they're both games that most people seem to have some sort of mass-hysteria thing about, but I actually have *gasp* FUN with them.

Ketsui because all the little butterfly-effect type changes in enemy patterns based on position really keep you alert, moving and thinking and not just going through a flowchart a la Dragon Blaze. It actually requires a lot of twitch skill even for players like me who have the whole ideal path mapped out beforehand with savestates.

Hellsinker because it's just pure exploration and wide-eyed wonder, and because I really want to figure out how to do Shrine of Farewell with Fossilmaiden without getting hit every 5 seconds.

Cho Ren Sha Hard Mode and SDOJ get honorary spots. Fuck Psikyo, I'm done with them for the indefinite future.

[Despatche]

if ketsui wasn't so brutal (this is a good thing, obviously!) i'd try to play it more

So if I make a game that's terrible on purpose and say "but being terrible is a part of the game's point!", that means that no one gets to talk about the game being terrible?

No, that's a silly comparison. This is why I like to put '' around some words.

However, that there does mean no one would really 'get' to say something like "this game shouldn't be terrible" or "you are a terrible game designer" (unless someone is calling you out for 'wasting your time' making a joke game in the first place, which is incredibly stupid), since it probably wouldn't exist otherwise. No one would honestly say that about such a game, because it would be missing the point and... probably because the game doesn't have any unintentional merit. That's usually how these things work, anyway. Whatever, words words words.

What I meant was that you're finding perfectly legitimate concepts worthy of shame and calling them a waste, and that kind of talk goes well beyond simple opinion (i.e. these opinions are not that special, go do something else). I see it far too much out of everyone else to say nothing.