Adding LS-30 rotary controls to Top Gunner

[billd420]

Whats up everyone-

Recently I pieced together a LS-30 control panel for use on my Sega Astro City, using NOS LS-30 joysticks. I have since been on a mission to acquire as many compatible PCB's for use with the panel as I can find. One of the most elusive titles, vaguely confirmed to even exist, is the Top Gunner LS-30 rotary version. I decided to make it a mission to re-add rotary controls to my Top Gunner PCB, using the bootleg romset from mame.

Step one was to verify the bootleg CPU roms worked on the konami PCB. The bootleg romset has 4x program roms, the konami pcb 3x. Comparing the drivers in the mame source, I concluded that if I merge roms 3 + 4, I would have a compatible binary for rom T02, the rest was a simple rom swap. The game booted and played no problem using the bootleg roms.

Step two was to make the rotary controls work. It was obvious the necessary hardware to interface the rotary controller was missing. The only hard parts to find were the Konami resistor array 005273 SIP (sourced from a dead super contra board). I installed (highlighted in red in the link):
Modded PCB Photo

1P B13P - 13 pin JST rotary connector
CRA1 - Konami SIP
CRA2 - Konami SIP
CRA4 - Konami SIP
CRA7 - Konami SIP
2D w/ mating ceramic cap - 74LS257
3D w/ mating ceramic cap - 74LS257

Unfortunately, with the bootleg roms and the missing hardware repopulated, the rotary controls only semi-worked. It seemed as though they sporadically registered, maybe every 5-6 clicks it would move the turret one turn (progress though!).

I analyzed the PCB further. First off, only 8 of the rotary controls are used on the PCB, the LS-30 has 12. Second, pins 1 and 3 are wired into the stereo volume pot (odd), pins 2 and 4 are tied to ground (another stereo output presumably). Since I am using these inputs for rotary controls, I severed the traces going to the stereo volume trim pot.

Fortunately for me, an original print manual and schematic were included with the PCB. Upon further analysis, I confirmed only 8 rotary sw inputs were used per player (not 12 like other LS-30 games). Also upon looking closer, there is a mismatch between schematic and PCB. The 1p and 2p 13pin connectors are labeled backwards. I opted to reverse the header mounting on my modded PCB to match the schematic. That got the controls working better, but not perfect.

To get the controls working "as best as they can with an LS-30", I built a Top Gunner 8-way rotary to LS-30 wire harness adapter. I hooked up 8 of the 12 inputs, evenly skipping the 4 unused inputs in a 360 degree pattern. The result- rotation works properly! Unfortunately though, it seems the game was designed for a 8 way rotary joystick, not 12 way. It works, however the turret rotation is flaky, it only responds every 2-3 rotation clicks.

Digging around on the internet, I have found a reference to an official Konami undumped Top Gunner PCB that (supposedly) works with LS-30 joysticks:
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=277488

Now for the fun part - how we can apply this to the game's history!

The PCB mentioned above is obviously much different than the PCB's that are commonly found, it has full rotary hardware installed as well as eproms inplace of mask roms. The original print schematic that was included with my PCB references the 8 inputs and shows them connected to the (usually missing) Konami SIP's. I have come to the conclusion that the bootleg set in mame is based off of the Konami rotary release of Top Gunner. I would venture to guess the data is identical to the undumped Top Gunner pictured in the link above. Also, I have a very strong hunch this game was designed for a custom Konami rotary joystick that only used an 8 way rotary switch (in an effort to compete with Ikari warriors at the time which is 12 way).

HAPPY GAMING!

[Ed Oscuro]

Kind of surprised that it would be Shou hoarding that board! But that thing is so ugly...I don't see proof that somebody didn't just reburn a few ROMs (and make a few other changes) to convert the game in a way they thought would make more money. Jackal / Top Gunner is interesting in that obviously it works very well with the setup they ended up with - while keeping complete JAMMA compatibility. But there are still signs that it might have originally been designed with a rotary design in mind, and of course the overall game design calls to mind classic rotary tank games like TNK 3. Having a better board shot would help matters along here.

A few thoughts here:

- Aside from the sockets mentioned, the EPROM window stickers look like real Konami ones. I don't have the energy at the moment to try and guess and match them up to known Konami ROM numbers. (No proof yet, strictly formally speaking - but it does look reasonable). It's also strange how the two large customs (I think they are) have some kind of sticker residue on them. Well, perhaps only mildly strange.

- "full rotary hardware installed" here just seems to mean that the mysterious P1 J13B (or whatever it says) harness connector has been attached. Normally, the P2 pin header is already attached, but not the P1 set. It does look like at the very least Konami could have anticipated the board layout would require some extra harness - i.e. potentially shipping a rotary game - but it does seem to me that a number of PCBs that have no use for extra harnesses have similar pin headers.

Anyways, I don't mean to cast doubt on Shou here, but don't quite see a smoking gun either.

[emphatic]

This is awesome!

[Ed Oscuro]

One other thing though - I wonder if Shou's repurposing parts there. The JAMMA connector says caliber 50, which I thought used optical rotaries, instead of LS-30s.

Also when I talked about PCBs that don't use the harness, I meant PCBs for other games, and systems (i.e. System16) that support multiple games. I really can't back that up though.

[SuperDeadite]

That pic very much looks like an Optical setup to me. Maybe that's the stick that is really supposed to be used.

[billd420]

An update!

I spoke with Shoe, and his PCB is actually dumped as the the parent for Jackal (world release). With the help of some friends (thanks RTW!) I was able to download the original mame submission, complete with PCB photos of the World Jackal release. I have concluded the PCB is identical to the official release, with the only difference being the Konami USA logo on my PCB, Konami JP logo on the "rotary" PCB. The ID number is the same "PWB 303047A". Shoe's PCB also has rom-risers that take 2x 512kb eproms and plug them into 1x 1mb rom socket. My version has 4x 1mb graphics roms, his 8x 512kb graphics roms. According to mame, the data is identical.

I am going to try the World Release roms today and see if it helps the rotation accuracy.

I do not think it will help however. Assuming Shoe's rotary PCB is in fact identical, only 8 of the 12 rotary positions are physically wired to the Konami SIP's. Who knows though, maybe they account for that fact via software. Anyways, I'll post back after I try the Konami official software.

[billd420]

That pic very much looks like an Optical setup to me. Maybe that's the stick that is really supposed to be used.

Incorrect. Optical inputs are 4 pin wire harnesses (on Touchdown Fever) 5v, Gnd, X0, X1. On Cal .50, I believe the optical input is integrated with the Jamma harness.

Seimitsu LS-30 joysticks use 13 pin connectors, 1 ground and 12 directions.

[billd420]

Kind of surprised that it would be Shou hoarding that board! But that thing is so ugly...I don't see proof that somebody didn't just reburn a few ROMs (and make a few other changes) to convert the game in a way they thought would make more money. Jackal / Top Gunner is interesting in that obviously it works very well with the setup they ended up with - while keeping complete JAMMA compatibility. But there are still signs that it might have originally been designed with a rotary design in mind, and of course the overall game design calls to mind classic rotary tank games like TNK 3. Having a better board shot would help matters along here.

A few thoughts here:

- Aside from the sockets mentioned, the EPROM window stickers look like real Konami ones. I don't have the energy at the moment to try and guess and match them up to known Konami ROM numbers. (No proof yet, strictly formally speaking - but it does look reasonable). It's also strange how the two large customs (I think they are) have some kind of sticker residue on them. Well, perhaps only mildly strange.

- "full rotary hardware installed" here just seems to mean that the mysterious P1 J13B (or whatever it says) harness connector has been attached. Normally, the P2 pin header is already attached, but not the P1 set. It does look like at the very least Konami could have anticipated the board layout would require some extra harness - i.e. potentially shipping a rotary game - but it does seem to me that a number of PCBs that have no use for extra harnesses have similar pin headers.

Anyways, I don't mean to cast doubt on Shou here, but don't quite see a smoking gun either.

Confirmation of the Jackal World PCB being an OFFICIAL RELEASE. I have 0 doubt in my mind that this board is authentic. The stamps on the eproms match my board, as mentioned before the only difference in the konami logo:

[Ed Oscuro]

Good detective work there, and pass along my thanks to Shou as well for his time and the dump, if you can!

I think that most of the doubt about this being an official release has been eliminated. Unless some bootleggers went to work on this with good programming skills, and made some unusual-for-bootleggers hardware modifications, AND then let it back into the channel, I think there's really very few scenarios where this could be anything but an official board.

I have a couple questions though:
- About the Konami logo - it was my impression that at about this time there was a switch-over from the classic rounded-leg "K" Konami logo from pre-85, to the modern version seen here. You can see old CPUs and customs with the old logo coexisting on many boards (into 1986 at least, possibly 1987) with new Mask ROMs and other newer parts with the new Konami logo. So when we say "the Japan logo," does that mean that Japan held onto the classic logo longer than did Konami USA? That actually seems strange to me (especially given the mask ROMs and other things adopting the new logo pretty soon).

- About the optical / LS-30 business: I mentioned caliber .50 because the JAMMA connector plugged into Shou's board in the thread linked earlier clearly says caliber .50 on it, so is it simply a matter of Shou's rewiring the harness for LS-30s?

- About the ROMs: Does MAME store the dumps of Shou's data as eight ROMs, or just four? (Probably a bit off topic since it's more about how MAME modifies data for child sets / variations on ROM sizes.)

Very interesting update, thanks again!

[system11]

All the boards were made in Japan, this is nothing to do with which branch of Konami sold them. It's more likely that these are early or development boards which never made it into full production. That would explain the rarity, the older logo, the risers and the Fujitsu 6809s which you used to find on older games with the numbers scratched off, look at all the photos of normal ones and they're all Motorola.

[Ed Oscuro]

the Fujitsu 6809s which you used to find on older games with the numbers scratched off, look at all the photos of normal ones and they're all Motorola.

Ah, didn't notice those.

The 6809s on this Top Gunner board look, to me, like Fujitsu 6809s. Looks more or less stock otherwise. My board is bog standard everywhere (including Motorola 6809s).

[system11]

Those are Motorola ones. You can tell from the Motorola logo

The Fujitsu have the ID just in the top corner, and instead of a cut-in or pin 1 mark, have a groove along one side of the chip, they're very distinctive.

Edit: and now I see what you mean - that seller is ... well, the two photos on the auction are 2 different PCBs.

[Ed Oscuro]

Christ. Yeah, I just looked at the first PCB. In case anybody is trolling the thread looking for a rare find: Don't do it.