XRGB-mini Framemeister

[mickcris]

The extra voltage from pin 1 is used to power the RGB up and the widescreen select pins that some SCART TV's use. If you use the NTSC composite video for sync cable on a PAL system normally it works just fine except on some TVs you manually have to select 4:3 aspect.

This is all irrelevant to the mini of course as it doesn't use these signal pins on its mini din, though its worth reminding everyone that you should never connect a raw/pure sync cable to a PAL Saturn.

I just dont see the need for a separate NTSC cable. Would using a PAL cable on an NTSC system not just ignore that pin anyways?

[Fudoh]

There's certainly no need of that. It just gets complicated for the c-sync NTSC cables. If you use one of those on a PAL saturn unit you can seriously damage your TV or processor.

[BuckoA51]

Pin 8 on SCART needs at least +9.5 volts to have the TV automatically select 4:3 aspect ratio. If you only tap the voltage from pin 4 you only get +5 volts which isn't enough (especially since some TV's also need a couple of volts on Pin 8 else they only display in composite video mode). That's why the PAL version of the cable taps the +12 volts that's available on pin 1 on the PAL consoles to pin 8 on the SCART.

As I said before If you use the NTSC composite video for sync cable on a PAL system normally it works just fine except on some TVs you manually have to select 4:3 aspect.

If you used the PAL cable she sells on the NTSC system, well, now instead of +12 volts you have some voltage from the sync line, unpredictable that could cause the TV to change aspect ratio when the picture was bright, perhaps.

This auto aspect ratio thing that some TV's do is the only reason for the difference in the cable.

Again this is all irrelevant to the mini of course as it doesn't use these signal pins on its mini din. You could use any cable and it should work, with the obvious exception of a raw/pure sync cable on a PAL unit of course.

[mickcris]

Pin 8 on SCART needs at least +9.5 volts to have the TV automatically select 4:3 aspect ratio. If you only tap the voltage from pin 4 you only get +5 volts which isn't enough (especially since some TV's also need a couple of volts on Pin 8 else they only display in composite video mode). That's why the PAL version of the cable taps the +12 volts that's available on pin 1 on the PAL consoles to pin 8 on the SCART.

As I said before If you use the NTSC composite video for sync cable on a PAL system normally it works just fine except on some TVs you manually have to select 4:3 aspect.

If you used the PAL cable she sells on the NTSC system, well, now instead of +12 volts you have some voltage from the sync line, unpredictable that could cause the TV to change aspect ratio when the picture was bright, perhaps.

This auto aspect ratio thing that some TV's do is the only reason for the difference in the cable.

Again this is all irrelevant to the mini of course as it doesn't use these signal pins on its mini din. You could use any cable and it should work, with the obvious exception of a raw/pure sync cable on a PAL unit of course.

Ok, thanks. That makes sense. I guess there must be some Japanese TVs or other scalers that make use of the aspect ratio switching pin.

[BuckoA51]

No idea on Japanese TV's but a lot of European TV's do and of course lots of us run NTSC consoles via RGB SCART here in PAL land.

[joelesto]

I've got NTSC-J PS2 but I've got a YPBPR cable. What is the correct and best connector to use? maybe even a link to ebay.com I'm super lost.

[Yamato]

But in fact there is one thing that will make me stay with the Mini's Component input. I tend to play some 2D titles from time to time on the Wii (and in GameCube mode) like the Mega Man X Collection, SNK Arcade Classics, Metal Slug Anthology etc. and those games looked a lot more blurry via the HDMI input. It's obviously because of the soft, video optimized HDMI scaling, right? Playing with the scaling engine didn't make a difference. So what turns out to be an advantage for 3D titles is obviously a real disadvantage for 2D titles. Mega Man X Collection i.e. looks freaking perfect to me via Component to Mini.

Another quick thought on this. I would really appreciate your opinions:

Could I use an Extron Crosspoint Switcher to have the "best of both worlds" here (assuming I did everything right while testing, see above)? I am totally new to Extron devices, but I just thought it might be possible to connect my Wii/GameCube/Xbox1 via component to an Extron Switch and then

- one output directly to the XRGB-mini Component input (via BNC to Component/D-Terminal adapter cable?) and
- another Extron output to a common Component-to-HDMI-transcoder box which is connected to the XRGB-mini HDMI input.

Would it be possible to use straight component connection for 2D games and the video optimized HDMI input for 3D titles this way without swapping cables all the time

Oh, one more question: Does the Extron convert Component into RGB format so I could feed everything in the XRGB-mini RGB input at the front? ( I guess no, but better be sure )

[Fudoh]

dangerous territory

The perfect Crosspoint/Framemeister/TV connection looks like this: 1st output RGBs into the Mini, 2nd output component into the Mini, 3rd output component/HDMI into the Mini, 4th output RGBHV into a sync interface and back into the matrix, 5th output RGBHV into a transcoder (RGBHV/YUV) and back into the matrix, 6th output into a SLG3000 and back into the matrix, 7th output into a component to HDMI converter into the TV. For this you need one of the larger crosspoints, e.g. a 128 (12 ins, 8 outs).

This routes everything into anything, gives you the possibility to bypass the Mini at all or apply scanlines to any signal you want. It also convertes all VGA inputs into component, component into HDMI and converts RGBHV or RGsB into RGBs to feed the Mini 31khz RGB signals (e.g. from a DC or a PS2 in RGB mode).

The only point to pay attention to is that the crosspoint only accepts clean sync, so you need the proper cabling for all your systems and a stripper or mod for any PS1/2 systems.

[Konsolkongen]

Can't really recommend the Extron switches enough. The composity sync only on RGB might be a problem for some, but I only use that anyway so I never have to deal with that sync level crap on the Mini



Wish my 124 (top one) had 8 outputs instead. Then I might have been able to combine every input/output to a single unit

[BuckoA51]

I dunno why but to me that looks lovely I guess I should get out more.

Do you happen to have hight/width/depth dimensions for a crosspoint switch? oh and do they have IR or any kind of remote control?

[Yamato]

Thanks @Fudoh for your explanation and @Konsolkongen for your Extron picture! I really like your little console brand icons

I start to get more and more an idea of what an Extron switch device is really capable of. Although, to be honest, I don't see the point how I could benefit from all those routing possibilities at the moment. Of course it's great for testing in every detail but I am more like - how should I say - an enthusiastic consumer that just wants to achieve the best possible pictures. I like to test what's best to my eyes, but when I have found my configuration that's pretty much it.

So i.e. there is no need for me to bypass the Mini, or what's the point to it?

Right now this means for my personal console collection:

To XRGB-mini RGB input:
- NES/Famicom (RGB modded)
- SNES with GameCube RGB cable
- PC Engine Duo-RX (RGB modded)
- Dreamcast (via Moosmann's VGA to RGBs cable)
(right now realized via standard Scart switch box)

To XRGB-mini Component input:
- GameCube/Wii (for 2D games)
- Xbox1 (for 2D games)
(right now realized via standard component switch box, also for 3D titles)

Possibly in the future:
To XRGB-mini HDMI input (via standard Component-HDMI-transcoder device):
- GameCube/Wii (3D titles only)
- Xbox1 (3D titles only)
(right now not possible because I don't own a matrix device)

From my testing experiences the above leads to the best results, or at least I'm not aware of different experiences. Suggestions are very welcome any time!

Oh, there might be a point in routing the Dreamcast to the XRGB-mini HDMI input too for 3D games only, but I don't have the necessary transcoder to test it.

@ Konsolkongen: Sorry to ask, but what does "composity sync only on RGB might be a problem" mean practically?
Concerning my RGB systems as listed above I guess I would just need one Extron output which would be BNC to MiniDIN8. Can I use female Scart-to-BNC adapter-cables for the inputs?

[Vans]

Does anyone know if there's a way to change the audio input to AV for the RGB IN? My current setup only carries video through the RGB cable (as in the device I'm using only carries video). :/

[Fudoh]

wasn't this added with the last FW ?

[EmperorZelos]

I am so happy PAL doesn't need the excessive complicated RGB that NTSC does.

[Konsolkongen]

What?

[Konsolkongen]

I dunno why but to me that looks lovely I guess I should get out more.

Do you happen to have hight/width/depth dimensions for a crosspoint switch? oh and do they have IR or any kind of remote control?

Approx. 49x25x13.3cm. The 49cm is with the rack mount parts which is only on the front. I can't measure the back right now, but I think it's about 44cm.

@ Konsolkongen: Sorry to ask, but what does "composity sync only on RGB might be a problem" mean practically?
Concerning my RGB systems as listed above I guess I would just need one Extron output which would be BNC to MiniDIN8. Can I use female Scart-to-BNC adapter-cables for the inputs?

It means that you need special cables for some systems to use the c.sync out rather than the c.video which is the most commonly used. PS1 and PS2 doesn't have clean sync on the AV output which means that you either have to run those systems through a sync cleaning device like the Syncstrike, before you feed it to the Extron switch. Or you could modify the AV output with a LM1881 circuit which is basically the same thing. That's what I did with my PS2.
Of course this only applies to RGB. For Component and RGBHV (VGA) there's nothing to worry about

Yes you can use SCART to BNC cables. I made a bunch of them myself.

You should also be aware that there are Extron switches without sound input/outputs, you don't want those. And you need special plugs for the audio as well, it's not just RCA or Mini-jack
It's also very important that you wire up those plugs correctly. You can find an Extron Crosspoint manual on Extrons website where it's described in detail. It's a hassle but once you have it up and running, everything will work perfectly from then on

[Yamato]

It means that you need special cables for some systems to use the c.sync out rather than the c.video which is the most commonly used.

Ok, so do I need special cables for one of those systems too? NES/AV Famicom (both with new NESRGB mod), SNES, PC Engine Duo-RX (RGB mod)
I guess Dreamcast should already be fine with the custom VGA to RGBs adapter cable.

Yes you can use SCART to BNC cables. I made a bunch of them myself.

Great, thanks
That's going to be a lot of adapter cables for every input and output though.
Just for curiousity reasons: I'd really like to see some pictures of the back of your units to get a better idea how it's wired up considering the amount of space I'm gonna need

You should also be aware that there are Extron switches without sound input/outputs, you don't want those. And you need special plugs for the audio as well, it's not just RCA or Mini-jack

Thanks, I will look that up in the manual.

Wish my 124 (top one) had 8 outputs instead. Then I might have been able to combine every input/output to a single unit

I know Fudoh already explained his thoughts on a perfect Crosspoint/Framemeister/TV setup. But to be honest I still don't get the point why I should route everything to anything. I can imagine it is great for every testing and comparison need you might have, but as I tried to explain I just want to be able to get the best picture out of my consoles. And with 2D vs. 3D titles I feel it would be great to have the option of routing into different Framemeister inputs (HDMI/Component). That's it. I don't want to build up a "test laboratory". I guess there is some kind of sense to use more routing than that, but I just don't get it. Sorry

Maybe you, Fudoh or other users might explain for which consoles or kind of games it's better to have different routing options (and which)? I see you have 4 outputs on each Crosspoint, Konsolkongen - How do you use them personally? Can't read the labels, sorry. At the moment I only see advantages for going HDMI on the Framemeister with 3D titles and Component with 2D titles. I'm willing to learn

Thanks for your advice!

[BuckoA51]

With the Framemeister, you want one output to go to the devices component in, and one to the RGB, that's two outputs used already.

Maybe you want to bypass the Meister and go direct to your TV for some 480p sources, since you have some action games that you want to minimize input lag on, that's three.

Now you are talking about how you want to route some of your outputs through a component to HDMI converter into the mini, well, there goes another output, up to four now.

Then later on maybe you want to add a capture device to record, oh, we're up to five now

As you can see, it can quickly add up.

[jamisonia]

Maybe this is just me, but I've found my TV seems to a better job with 480p sources than the XRGB does. Now 480i and below is a different story.

I know this has been repeated time and time again on this thread, but its easily buried. What is the ideal way to connect a PS2 to the XRGB? I know it has something to do with RGB Scart output, and not YPbPr, through some other stuff. I think we should start updating http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/XRGB ... AMEMEISTER with this info so it doesn't have to be reposted so often.

[Fudoh]

Maybe this is just me, but I've found my TV seems to a better job with 480p sources than the XRGB does

no, it's not just you. I'm with you on this one.

PS2 into the Mini is easy, if you only want to use 240p and 480i (just RGB Scart). It gets more complicated when you want 480p as well.

[jamisonia]

PS2 into the Mini is easy is only want to use 240p and 480i (just RGB Scart). It gets more complicated when you want 480p as well.

Which as we discussed before may be better just going through the TV. I've never noticed the color noise you indicated using the PS2 on YPbPr going directly into my TV. So maybe that is the best solution. I'm already used to cable switching as is. Too many consoles to keep them all connected at once.

[BuckoA51]

I believe you can use a Keene Syncblaster black box to connect the PS2 to the RGB input on the mini and use all screenmodes. It's around £70 though last time I checked.

[Zapf]

In what instances would you want to convert component into hdmi and THEN feed it back into the xrgb?

[Yamato]

In what instances would you want to convert component into hdmi and THEN feed it back into the xrgb?

Because of this observation:

Another thing I just noticed (not sure if that's new or not), but the scaling engines for 480i and 480p work completely different on the HDMI inputs compared to a component source. (…) On the HDMI inputs the scaling for both 480i and 480p is much more video-optimized. (…)

With a cheap ($30) component to HDMI converter the HDMI inputs now work very well for systems like Wii, XBox, Cube or Playstation 2. Overall I still like my TV's 480p upscaling better (so passthrough for 480p on the Mini), but compared to the broken 480p upscaling on the component input, this is a blessing. Also the color balance is much better on the HDMI inputs (ever noticed those overssaturads reds or greens through component?) and the filtering is much less aggressive. Problems with color banding or noise were gone as well. (…)

Although regarding those oversaturated colours, decreasing the SATURATION level on the Mini to like 25 helps a bit (see Wiki)

[broken]

Any known issues with CPS 1 boards?

My final fight board isn't displaying a picture through the mini. Every once and a while I get a brief flicker of the game and then it disappears. Adjusting the mini's sync level didn't have any effect.


No resistors on the sync line on my supergun and no sync cleaner in it either (though I may build one).

[Yamato]

I think I have to revise my opinion stated on Feb 25...

Today I once again compared the XRGB-mini HDMI input vs. Component input. I also compared to my Sony HX855 television via HDMI passthrough.

On Feb 25 I tested the whole thing with Super Mario Galaxy. For today I chose HotD 2&3 Return (Wii port). Why the hell that game you may ask?! Well, it's because I played it a lot via Dreamcast VGA and therefore I have clear expectations of what the graphics can look like. Also there is a lot of automatic camera movement right from the beginning in stage 1, so you can easily decide what you like best.

Concerning Mario Galaxy I said that the soft and "video optimized" scaling via Framemeister HDMI input suited the Wii 480p picture quite well. I'm afraid HotD2 showed a different picture right from the beginning: It was just way too blurry and somehow the less defined details made it look "dirty" to me. I also noticed a bright line next to the face of the victim inside the first building. This "ghost line" was barely visible via HDMI directly connected to my TV and not visible at all via Framemeister Component input. Also the picture was just sharper and overall more appealing with a direct HDMI or a Framemeister Component connection.

I have to say I liked the Framemeister Component upscaling just a bit more, because I think there was a little bit less flickering with borders / diagonal lines while the camera moved. It was a tiny difference overall. But you definitely have to tweak the XRGB's brightness (to around 30) and saturation (to around 25) settings, because the Component presets are just wrong.

So overall the HDMI-direct picture with my HX855 was very close to the XRGB quality. In fact so close I wouldn't recommend buying the XRGB just for upscaling 480p pictures if you happen to own a rather good TV which handles 480p quite well. But if you already own a Framemeister then this the way to go in my opinion. It really makes me wonder why people speak of a less good Framemeister 480p upscaling from time to time (for it is even a bit better to my eyes than my Sony's HX855 480p upscaling via Hdmi AND Component). With which games did you test it, Fudoh, Jamisonia, ...? Are we talking 3D games here? I'd really like to understand what you mean! Or is it just for saving input lag because the difference is in fact so small?

Regarding my previous post concerning Mario Galaxy I honestly can not explain why the experience was so different. Maybe Mario Galaxy just wasn't the right game to start testing with. Or maybe its graphics are "softer" / more optimized to look acceptable on modern television out of the box which suits the XRGB-mini HDMI inputs better. HotD2 on the other hand with its more "edged" graphics and blocky textures has different needs here and doesn't want to be scaled THAT soft obviously

Using the Framemeister HDMI input for "softened" 3D titles like Mario Galaxy while staying with the Component input for more crisp 3D titles (and 2D titles of course) would be a reasonable signal routing for me at the moment. Here I could once again make use of an Extron Crosspoint quite well. Although a simple YUV matrix could do the same. But you never know what you're going to need in the future and it's nice to have an all-in-one switch, of course.

[Fudoh]

When you say "direct HDMI connection to your Sony" from a Wii, you use a non-scaling HDMI dongle for your Wii or an external standalone box ?

I haven't seen your particular TV model in action, but I've enough similar Sonys, some a little older, others newer, so I have a pretty good idea how yours looks like. In general I still wouldn't use the Mini for 480p upscaling UNLESS I need an easy solution for scanlines. By using the scaling settings on the Mini you can accomplish a more blocky look than the TV can do on it's own, but I don't see any point to that. My main problem with the Mini is that the sampling on the horizontal is off, meaning that you get weird false contours on most vertical edges. This can be tweaked to a certain degree by adjusting the scaler settings, but not without blurring the image.

I'm surprised that you only differentiate between the Mini's component and HDMI inputs, while the actual scaling settings have a much bigger impact on your actual results.

[RGB32E]

Any known issues with CPS 1 boards?

My final fight board isn't displaying a picture through the mini. Every once and a while I get a brief flicker of the game and then it disappears. Adjusting the mini's sync level didn't have any effect.


No resistors on the sync line on my supergun and no sync cleaner in it either (though I may build one).

CPS1 should work fine - series 220 ohm resistors on RGB, and straight connection with sync and ground. I was actually playing my FF PCB the other day!

Only issue I'm having with arcade games in general with the mini is hum bars due to a ground loop. The Super Nova I have came wired so that earth ground is connected to one of the ground pins, which I believe is causing the loop.

[broken]

CPS1 should work fine - series 220 ohm resistors on RGB, and straight connection with sync and ground. I was actually playing my FF PCB the other day!

Only issue I'm having with arcade games in general with the mini is hum bars due to a ground loop. The Super Nova I have came wired so that earth ground is connected to one of the ground pins, which I believe is causing the loop.

Well damn that's odd. I have an adjustable pot on the RGB lines. This particular mini is new out of the box so will i need to look at the settings again.

[Yamato]

Hi,

When you say "direct HDMI connection to your Sony" from a Wii, you use a non-scaling HDMI dongle for your Wii or an external standalone box ?

External box without scaling. Just 1:1 transcoding from YUV to HDMI.

By using the scaling settings on the Mini you can accomplish a more blocky look than the TV can do on it's own, but I don't see any point to that.

It is maybe hard for me to describe but with HotD2 I didn't really want to achieve a "blocky look". Like I said, while using the XRGB Component input there was a little bit less flickering with borders / diagonal lines while the camera moved. You can notice it when you watch the outer lines of the roofs in the very first screen for example.

With the XRGB it looked a bit more "anti aliased" in comparison to my Sony TV via 480p which is a good thing, because it makes the picture look more "stable". But both XRGB Component and Sony HX855 pictures were sharp in an appealing way. The XRGB HDMI input - on the other hand - showed a way too blurry picture for this kind of game. It was very obvious right from the beginning.

My main problem with the Mini is that the sampling on the horizontal is off, meaning that you get weird false contours on most vertical edges. This can be tweaked to a certain degree by adjusting the scaler settings, but not without blurring the image.

While comparing a 480p signal with XRGB Component scaling with my direct Sony HX855 upscaling I couldn't see weird false contours Do you have pictures of it or a certain Wii/GCN/Xbox1 game scene so I can reproduce it?

But yeah, the XRGB HDMI upscaling - on the other hand - definitely showed false contours to my eyes. I just called them "ghost lines" with HotD2 in my previous posting

I'm surprised that you only differentiate between the Mini's component and HDMI inputs, while the actual scaling settings have a much bigger impact on your actual results.

I fine tuned the scaling engine both with Component and HDMI input before testing. Component was set to 6/5, HDMI to 7/5. This was as good as it gets with the Wii 480p signal (considering texts or certain edges, also I only tested 3D games!).

Your comment really makes me feel that we're using technically different XRGB-mini units Don't get me wrong, I have a great respect for your detailed reviews and experience. They helped me a lot. But honestly, there was just no way to get the HotD2 picture over XRGB HDMI input as sharp and detailed as it was possible with the Component input (via scaling settings). HDMI always looked more like washed out.