How good are console ports vs PCB and MAME?

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Cave PCBs may not be worth the money in an era where people pay nothing to 99 cents for the latest ios game but put up "1:1 if money is no object" are most often superior options.

i'm pretty sure this is typical elitist talk

Have you ever played a Cave board? I'm curious, you actually think I'm talking this based on something to do with ego?

[Squire Grooktook]

Cave PCBs may not be worth the money in an era where people pay nothing to 99 cents for the latest ios game but put up "1:1 if money is no object" are most often superior options..

Eh, I'm fine with spending 140 dollars for 2 games on Play Asia, but 500 dollars is just way beyond my price range/allowance. Besides, while I can understand and respect a desire for perfect accuracy, the very minor changes on some of the better ports aren't game changers enough to make it worth it (for me personally).

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

I understand not being able to afford it. I gave up enough to be certifiably insane in order to get my Cave boards. But that doesn't make me elitist. I would let you guys play my boards til your hands bleed, if we were hanging out. This stuff reminds me of some college degrees and how people react to people with them, assuming people with them have a superiority complex about it. But it's just a stupid degree.

We're all just a bunch of humans and I'll share what I've got but people need to be open minded. PCB owners aren't talking out their ass for being able to afford something simply different.

[Bananamatic]

you actually think I'm talking this based on something to do with ego?

that's usually the case once people start pointing towards casual/mainstream games and using the word "real"

Tell me, what's less accurate about the DFK port? Is there some magic that warrants the ridiculous price tag for an average person?(while losing all the extras the port has)
What's this "real CRT monitor" you speak of? Is my old ass CRT with mono sound imaginary?

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

For specifics on games where I don't own the port and the pcb I have generally gone by EOJ's assessments (and videos, if that needs to be said). As an emu and pcb owner of the earliest, most accuracy-emulatable games I can tell you even stuff like Progear and ESP Ra.De. are not faintly, remotely accurate on your PC. If you are running the ports through a CRT then you are ahead of the game in the graphics regard though I'm sure there is added input lag, or is there not?

[chempop]

Tell me, what's less accurate about the DFK port?

The port has quite a bit less slowdown.

[Wyrmnus]

Tell me, what's less accurate about the DFK port?

The port has quite a bit less slowdown.

That might explain why I get my ass handed to me on DFK 1.5, yet when I watch a replay on what looks to be the PCB, I see slowdown ( and I think LESS BULLETS ) that Im just not seeing on my 360 Port.

[Laurel_McFang]

I don't think people collect PCBs because of elitism but rather as enthusiasm. I could think of a few games so dear that owning the PCB might be worth it for me. I am sad to hear though that PCBs have climbed in price, but so have vintage games. Some of those Hiroshi Ioshi games like that Ninja one on Saturn I think go for massive amounts of money. I really never should have sold my Panzer Dragoon games (note because saga and orta are rather valuable now). I remember when I bought a super gun in 1996 I got a PCB of Robocop for like 30 usd and arcades were practically giving away early 1990s PCBs on Usenet for cheap. Street Fighter 2 PCB cost me like 15 usd from a rec.arcade.games posting.

I think the advantage though of PCBs in this genre (and in fighting games) is that the genre is peculiarity sensitive to good controls and latency. ESPgaluda 2 on iOS is beautiful, but having lower latency and the right joystick can make all the difference. DotEmu's R-Type port for instance is significantly more difficult with touch controls than via joystick. Keep in mine console ports can also be higher resolution than PCBs. In the Case of the cave games though I think you're safe with the xbox 360 ports and a decent controller. Leave the PCBs for serious collectors who will take care of them. Note: I am not a serious collector, but wouldn't mind an MVS cart for Viewpoint

P.s. Mame is cool and I love it. In some ways I prefer mame to the original, but ya know if you really,like a game owning the original will always be a huge draw.

Lol just checked eBay and the neo geo cd version of viewpoint is like 40 usd and the cart is close to 400. Might get the psx version instead.

[Ghegs]

Lol just checked eBay and the neo geo cd version of viewpoint is like 40 usd and the cart is close to 400. Might get the psx version instead.

AES games tend to be horribly overpriced collector's items and should be avoided, you can get the MVS cart for much, much less.

I'm fairly new to the PCB game having got my supergun only a few years ago, and I have about 20 PCBs now (plus about the same number of MVS carts). Most of the games never got home ports, and a few aren't even emulated at the moment. Some do have good home ports with additional features or are very playable in MAME, but I like playing the games in their original form and it's very hard for me to get excited when playing a game on emulator. And in my "old age" I've started to become a bit allergic to loading times. With PCBs I just flick a switch and five seconds later I'm already playing the game. No need to boot up the console, start the game, wait for it to load, wait for the developer logos to go by, navigate the menus...it's very nice.

Price is a factor, of course. There are some PCBs I'd like to have (Osman, R-Type Leo...), but they're just so stupidly expensive that I don't want to plunk down that kind of money. And though I love the original R-Type, I don't want the PCB because it's quite expensive and the PS1 R-Types release is quite good, and in some ways even better.

And like Muchi Muchi Spork said, you're not forced to use a stick. I play all my PCBs using a Saturn pad.

[Ed Oscuro]

Like-new condition Samurai Spirits 1 & 2 cartridges still go for a pittance, and IMO the manual + extra artwork helps the deal.
Plenty of the very early games are easy to get cheap as well.

don't take this as an offense, but I don't think most people would think it's worth the money

Don't care, shouldn't care. Most people don't play older video games, let alone shooters. But at the same time there are enough people paying money that the games remain worth as much as what people paid for them.

[HUmar]

I think owning PCBs is related to passion. I love arcade games and I want to know a lot of things about a game I like.
When you buy an arcade game, you can see it as buying a piece of History. You see how it works, what limitations developers had to deal with, how they did it. It is just something about being interested in your passion.

The same applies to a sport car owner. Why would you buy a Porsche instead of a cheaper car? There's no need to have a car that can go faster than speed limits. Yes, you can buy it just to be arrogant. Or maybe you want to have a special feeling, hearing sound of the car, understand the mechanics of the motor, being appreciative of the wonderful work of engineers and workers who built this car.

And like a car, you can rent an arcade game by going to a game center if you can't buy a cabinet and PCBs.
You'll get the chance to play some games you love on the original hardware, in the conditions developers thought their game would be played. And I think arcades are a much more valuable experience than owning arcade stuff at home.
If you don't have a game center in your town and still have the arcade experience, you have to buy your own cabinet and PCBs. It's not as expansive as most people would think except if you're only looking for Cave games but there's plenty of other great games that aren't Cave.

[Stevas]

So I'm just about to pull the trigger on some NeoGeo stuff in the Vita sale (specifically, Metal Slug XX, KOF96, maybe Slug and Slug 2 (because: fuck me, I'm in EU and I don't get anthology)...

Am I about to be as hugely fucked off as I was years ago when I effectively just threw money away on the PS2 "anthology", which was utter, utter shite (seriously, if there was any justice in the world everyone involved would have contracted life-threatening herpes)?

Or has the games industry collectively figured out how to not be grade A retarded at this sort of thing?

[Chromecha]

Lol just checked eBay and the neo geo cd version of viewpoint is like 40 usd and the cart is close to 400. Might get the psx version instead.

If you're going to get the PSX version of Viewpoint, exercise some caution. There are a couple reports of input lag and framerate issues that could get in the way. Some people think this is acceptable, while others think it's horrible. For that decision, I'll leave it up to you. I have not played the PSX version myself, so I am unable to judge for myself.

[Casey120]

It's a passion to play on original hardware for some, the experience of playing an actual cab and board in your home can not be emulated .

Prices have gone a bit crazy though as that € 80,- Donpachi or € 120,- DoDonpachi have now triplet in price .
Ibara on the PS2 used to be as expensive as the board .

Viewpoint PSX is a good example of a port going wrong, they wanted to spice up the graphics so you end up with an broken, unresponsive game, terrible slowdown and flickering graphics, an original cart will cost you close to € 100,- which is money better spend than the crappy port for € 30,-

[Laurel_McFang]

Lol just checked eBay and the neo geo cd version of viewpoint is like 40 usd and the cart is close to 400. Might get the psx version instead.

If you're going to get the PSX version of Viewpoint, exercise some caution. There are a couple reports of input lag and framerate issues that could get in the way. Some people think this is acceptable, while others think it's horrible. For that decision, I'll leave it up to you. I have not played the PSX version myself, so I am unable to judge for myself.

Yeah after reading about it looks like either mame or MVS cart. Not sure where to,look for MVS carts though and my super gun is legendary old and in an attic somewhere.

Edit: according to this price guide about 200 usd for viewpoint MVS 1/2 of the cost of the home cart, but 5 x the neo geo cd version. How is the neo geo cd version? A used game store has a neo geo cd sitting around.

http://www.neogeokult.com/mvs-price-guide/

P.s. 30 usd for the original samuria spirits is a steal.

Slightly cheaper here:
http://www.jamma-nation-x.com/jammax/mvspriceguide.html

[Chromecha]

From some reports I've heard, the Neo Geo CD port of Viewpoint is great. It looks and sounds pretty much like the MVS/AES version, and the only long loading screen is the one that appears upon booting up the game.

Also, regarding my Cave 360 post earlier, I understand that they can't really be "arcade perfect" (nothing can replace playing at am arcade), but I played Mushihimesama Futari on the 360 and found nothing wrong with it. That port is fantastic.

[Illyrian]

So I guess I am one of the lucky ones in that I have played a number of different Cave games on PCB and the ports. On PCB at the Casino arcade in london which closed last year.

Here's what I think. Some of the others who also went to that arcade bought PCB's which were then put into the arcade's cabs for everyone to enjoy. People like Spadgy, Skykid and JDE and others would buy them not only to supergun at home but also for the purpose of putting into the arcade.

These games were played by all of us and in general we mostly think these were a good investment for the enjoyment of everyone. I would personally never buy a PCB or a Supergun. There's just too big a risk involved for me. Let me explain: the most I ever spent on a shmup was like over £300 to buy a J-360 and DFK Black Label. I bought the J-360 just for that game. Was it worth the money just for that one game? No!

I might have put a number of hours into it, primarily into Ketsuipachi, but enough to justify that investment for me? Not really. You just can't know how much you're really going to enjoy a game until you play it and by that point if you have already spent a lot of money on a PCB it's too late, unless you want to go through the hassle of selling it.

Compare my experience with that to any of the games I've played for over 100 hours just on my steam account. None of those cost me more than £35 and have provided me many more hours of entertainment.

I've played Ketsui more than any other game on MAME, for more than 20 hours and that has cost me nothing. I kinda feel like while it's great to buy a PCB as social thing, for others to enjoy as well, I couldn't possibly justify to myself spending the money on them just for myself.

I also think that people who say playing on a old CRT with mono sound is better than playing a port with graphic smoothing on a HD monitor (as with the Mushi port from last year) is delusional.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Aside from disagreeing about the monitor, there is something you aren't taking into account which is that if you aren't buying the pcb new then you can resell it and get most of your money back. So if you want to say it's not worth $700 for a game, it's not really a meaningful statement because if you resell it and get $650 back a year later, it would be worth a lot more than the $50 to me to have a blast on it for a year. It would have held its value a lot more than your brand new Xbox, now not so brand new anymore. A supergun is really cheap if you make it yourself. A lot of "collectors" as people like to call them only really "rent" Cave boards, and it's a blast or else they wouldn't keep doing it. Totally worth it.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Also, regarding my Cave 360 post earlier, I understand that they can't really be "arcade perfect" (nothing can replace playing at am arcade), but I played Mushihimesama Futari on the 360 and found nothing wrong with it. That port is fantastic.

A lot of the nitpicking going on with the 360 ports is legitimate, but is stuff that probably wouldn't be noticed except by people either looking for differences specifically, or people who've played on both to the point where they're able to score high. Really high. World record high. Didn't the guy who has the WR on Akai Katana manage the same on the 360 port? Even if they differ a bit in slowdown, Cave's ports are generally of very high quality in terms of arcade accuracy, especially compared to ports of shmups we've had to deal with previously. Honestly if you're good at playing on the port or 360, your skills will be transferable; there might be some timing issues when it comes to specific scoring spots, but it's unlikely there'll be any mindblowing changes you can't manage to adapt to.

Even with Progear which does have a bit more slowdown in MAME, I managed to 1-All it on my first credit when I had the chance to try out the PCB, it's not so different as to be a completely different game, you just have to adapt to different timing. It's nice to own PCBs, but I wouldn't begrudge the quality of some of the more recent arcade ports, Cave's latest stuff really is pretty good, and the arrange modes for some of the games really are good fun.

[Nick420]

I can't comment much as I have very little exp with pcb's. but I can say that I have been playing strikers 1945 II in mame for years and rarely made it past stage 5.

Recently bought the pcb and within literally a few credits was consistently reaching stage 7. So I would say that there must be some significant advantages to owning the pcb

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Also, regarding my Cave 360 post earlier, I understand that they can't really be "arcade perfect" (nothing can replace playing at am arcade), but I played Mushihimesama Futari on the 360 and found nothing wrong with it. That port is fantastic.

A lot of the nitpicking going on with the 360 ports is legitimate, but is stuff that probably wouldn't be noticed except by people either looking for differences specifically, or people who've played on both to the point where they're able to score high. Really high. World record high. Didn't the guy who has the WR on Akai Katana manage the same on the 360 port? Even if they differ a bit in slowdown, Cave's ports are generally of very high quality in terms of arcade accuracy, especially compared to ports of shmups we've had to deal with previously. Honestly if you're good at playing on the port or 360, your skills will be transferable; there might be some timing issues when it comes to specific scoring spots, but it's unlikely there'll be any mindblowing changes you can't manage to adapt to.

Even with Progear which does have a bit more slowdown in MAME, I managed to 1-All it on my first credit when I had the chance to try out the PCB, it's not so different as to be a completely different game, you just have to adapt to different timing. It's nice to own PCBs, but I wouldn't begrudge the quality of some of the more recent arcade ports, Cave's latest stuff really is pretty good, and the arrange modes for some of the games really are good fun.

Akai Katana is a rare case. A little bit of slowdown goes a long way. Adding absurd amounts like in Katana doesn't help much at all. In some cases you can get it basically into slideshow mode on the pcb, and that doesn't make it easier. I've found Progear bullets to be a lot harder to dodge when they go the intended speed but if you went from gamepad with input lag to arcade stick no lag then there you go.

I think Akai Katana was the first Cave game where some fans actually complained about the slowdown (on the pcb).

[drauch]

By Crom, is this a real thread? How can you play arcade games and not understand the benefit of playing on original hardware compared to emulation? I would imagine most of the members here had their first exposure to arcade games at the, uh... arcade, or at least on an arcade machine. My lordy, are we already that spoiled by emulation?

[emphatic]

PCB = for men
MAME = for kids
Ports = for kids who wanna be manlier

[Bananamatic]

By Crom, is this a real thread? How can you play arcade games and not understand the benefit of playing on original hardware compared to emulation? I would imagine most of the members here had their first exposure to arcade games at the, uh... arcade, or at least on an arcade machine. My lordy, are we already that spoiled by emulation?

I honestly don't see any benefits, as long as you are comfortable with the controls and the game doesn't run like total trash with zero slowdown(ps2 emulation, sh3 mame), playing on a pcb won't magically make you better at the game

hell, you can even get really good results with an extremely ghetto setup(gus counterstopped futari ultra with a 360 pad on an untated CRT with default size playing window)

The only thing a pcb gives you is the arcade feeling and not everyone who likes shmups is an arcade enthusiast

[KAI]

PCB = for men
MAME = for kids
Ports = for kids who wanna be manlier

WUT? Sometimes Ports are better than PCBs.

[E-Type]

This thread has gotten really lame and off-topic.

Since so many people play the 360 ports, I guess I should just give it a try.

Apparently no one is knowledgeable about native arcade resolutions and how they might affect what I'm trying to do. I assume the 360 ports will scale to 640x480, which is not native for most PCBs. This will cause pixel degradation. But it may look ok if there is no smoothing.

[null1024]

I'd love to own original boards [almost by definition the best way to play, since there are no overhead/timing issues from emulation and ports tend to have their own set of problems, although getting a setup to play the boards can be a hassle of its own -- I've no place for a cab, blah].

Non shmup anecdote: One of my friends got himself a consolized MVS and I'm kind of jealous. No input delay issues, no subtle bugs [Garou MOTW in MAME screws up on the bridge in Terry's stage since forever], just real hardware. The ports have some issue or another [and MAME ends up being pretty much the best way to play it if you don't have the cart].

Some ports are dead-on to the board, but a lot more ports fall far short and will be beaten out by MAME [although it may take a while -- time, effort, knowledge, access to original hardware and/or recordings of it are all necessary things for good emulation].
On the other hand, there are reasons that ports beat out MAME -- they often have nice extras, they are definitely legal [if you are running MAME without the board, you sure as hell aren't in legal territory], and if you buy them new, you support the devs [which is a Good Thing™].

And remember kids, timing is a bitch to get right no matter what. I'm pretty certain that I've encountered more emulation issues due to timing differences from real HW than any other reason [when given a reasonably far along emulator that actually emulates all the system components, that is]. And with a port, it's a hell of a lot of work to match hardware induced slowdown on hardware with different characteristics.

In short, timing will never be perfect

As for visuals, Metal Slug Anthology is a bit of a corner-case. I dunno if the 360 ports have a nice full-screen output when running at 640x480 [since I don't have a J360, of course], but there's be a lot more bitching if they were that bad regarding filtered video.
@E-Type: You might want to adjust the thread title to match your specific questions better. As the title stands now, it invites all this other discussion.

[drauch]

By Crom, is this a real thread? How can you play arcade games and not understand the benefit of playing on original hardware compared to emulation? I would imagine most of the members here had their first exposure to arcade games at the, uh... arcade, or at least on an arcade machine. My lordy, are we already that spoiled by emulation?

I honestly don't see any benefits, as long as you are comfortable with the controls and the game doesn't run like total trash with zero slowdown(ps2 emulation, sh3 mame), playing on a pcb won't magically make you better at the game

hell, you can even get really good results with an extremely ghetto setup(gus counterstopped futari ultra with a 360 pad on an untated CRT with default size playing window)

The only thing a pcb gives you is the arcade feeling and not everyone who likes shmups is an arcade enthusiast

Never said it made you better. A lot of games are poorly emulated, and so much stuff doesn't exist in emulation. That's your main benefit right there. I dunno, unless you didn't grow up when arcades were around, then I guess ignorance is bliss. I definitely understand cost, but I don't understand why one wouldn't benefit in enjoyment playing the game how it was meant to be played and designed, rather than a "ghetto setup."

[Nasirosuchus]

I honestly don't see any benefits, as long as you are comfortable with the controls and the game doesn't run like total trash with zero slowdown(ps2 emulation, sh3 mame), playing on a pcb won't magically make you better at the game

hell, you can even get really good results with an extremely ghetto setup(gus counterstopped futari ultra with a 360 pad on an untated CRT with default size playing window)

The only thing a pcb gives you is the arcade feeling and not everyone who likes shmups is an arcade enthusiast

SH3 MAME has had slowdown since Metallic's build over two years ago. It's not perfect but the emulation in the ports isn't perfect, either. Many of the games are also playable via PS2 emulation although you'd need a somewhat more powerful computer.

That being said, the ports are probably the best way to play the game as they don't cost hundreds of dollars and you don't have to tinker with blitter delay settings.

[Xyga]

This thread has gotten really lame and off-topic.

Since so many people play the 360 ports, I guess I should just give it a try.

Apparently no one is knowledgeable about native arcade resolutions and how they might affect what I'm trying to do. I assume the 360 ports will scale to 640x480, which is not native for most PCBs. This will cause pixel degradation. But it may look ok if there is no smoothing.

About the 360's ports; accuracy in terms of pure gameplay timings and mechanics is what you should care about as a priority.
This article to illustrate: https://web.archive.org/web/20120808053 ... com/?p=800
It doesn't cover all titles but that's all we've got. Or you can read the strategy forum, there's tons of precious information disseminated in it.

Then if you want to use your 360 in a cab you should consider a downscaling solution, read Fudoh's website and posts on that topic:
http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 41#p883141

My 2c now; emulation will beat the console ports. Actually if it's just about the looks it already does since anyone can use a 15KHz emulation setup (soft15khz, groovymame) and have the games displayed to-the-pixel on a crt display.
Give people who develop Mame drivers and actually give a shit some more time and then the timings as well will be okay.
There will still be a bit of input lag generated by Mame but not too much, and no worse than playing your average 360 on your average hd tv anyway.