Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
Well, you guys are a bunch of assholes (and I mean that in the nicest possible way.)
You've made me feel like a bully joining in in a playground kicking of some defenceless kid without even knowing what the punishment is for.
I just played through a rather generous demo: first full stage, 2 bosses, and arcade mode (insane difficulty) with a third boss to battle, and while I can pinpoint the following potential issues -
- Too easy on default
- Rather slow paced
- Cutscenes slightly intrusive
- I'm not sure if it warrants the seething hatred that's been dumped on it. Poor chaps went out to create a shmup that would stand up to current gen pressures while trying to implement enough gaming nuance to make vets happy, and all we did was spend 42 pages being total dicks about it.
Graphically it's excellent. Some really nice designs, especially the bosses, and, at least on default, the time scenario keeps you pedalling forward thinking about destroying as much stuff as possible. The infamous Piano drop - which I haven't had as yet - is indefensible and I'm sure they slapped the hell out of whoever suggested it, but otherwise the slowing down of time, loosing missile swarms to build back clock digits, and the general presentation seems ok.
Insane arcade is pretty tough - the suicide bullets are a bit off-putting (weird trajectory) and it can be a bit too busy - but it's challenging at least.
I can see it's not perfect, but from this thread I was expecting much worse. And I've played plenty of shmups and I'm a critical so and so, so there you have it.
When it comes down to it, I'm still not sure I'd buy it, but that's not really the point. The point is you're all cruel babies and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
You've made me feel like a bully joining in in a playground kicking of some defenceless kid without even knowing what the punishment is for.
I just played through a rather generous demo: first full stage, 2 bosses, and arcade mode (insane difficulty) with a third boss to battle, and while I can pinpoint the following potential issues -
- Too easy on default
- Rather slow paced
- Cutscenes slightly intrusive
- I'm not sure if it warrants the seething hatred that's been dumped on it. Poor chaps went out to create a shmup that would stand up to current gen pressures while trying to implement enough gaming nuance to make vets happy, and all we did was spend 42 pages being total dicks about it.
Graphically it's excellent. Some really nice designs, especially the bosses, and, at least on default, the time scenario keeps you pedalling forward thinking about destroying as much stuff as possible. The infamous Piano drop - which I haven't had as yet - is indefensible and I'm sure they slapped the hell out of whoever suggested it, but otherwise the slowing down of time, loosing missile swarms to build back clock digits, and the general presentation seems ok.
Insane arcade is pretty tough - the suicide bullets are a bit off-putting (weird trajectory) and it can be a bit too busy - but it's challenging at least.
I can see it's not perfect, but from this thread I was expecting much worse. And I've played plenty of shmups and I'm a critical so and so, so there you have it.
When it comes down to it, I'm still not sure I'd buy it, but that's not really the point. The point is you're all cruel babies and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
Always outnumbered, never outgunned - No zuo no die
ChurchOfSolipsism wrote: ALso, this is how SKykid usually posts
-
BareKnuckleRoo
- Posts: 6199
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:01 am
- Location: Southern Ontario
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
Hahaha, what? I've seen early 90s shmups with better scoring systems than this steaming pile. It's especially bad seeing as how its special abilities are ripped off from games that had scoring designed specifically around their use! The reason this game is hated isn't because it's literally the worst shmup ever, it's because it's a painfully mediocre effort from a company that attempted to massively hype itself and should have really known better than to release it with so many glaring issues that you don't expect to see in a modern shmup.current gen pressures while trying to implement enough gaming nuance
This is exactly the sort of game I'd expect to see from someone who wants to make a shmup but has never actually played them seriously and has no idea how to implement good gameplay, so they just focus on the graphical side of things and hope nobody notices how badly unpolished the game itself is (which is usually a recipe for success if mainstream reviewers are anything to judge by >:/ ).
This is more like mocking that pretentious hipster who has loads of unwarranted self-importance and zero self-awareness. “Rebooting the genre” my ass.like a bully joining in in a playground kicking of some defenceless kid
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
Your favourite thread.BareknuckleRoo wrote:Hahaha, what? I've seen early 90s shmups with better scoring systems than this steaming pile. It's especially bad seeing as how its special abilities are ripped off from games that had scoring designed specifically around their use! The reason this game is hated isn't because it's literally the worst shmup ever, it's because it's a painfully mediocre effort from a company that attempted to massively hype itself and should have really known better than to release it with so many glaring issues that you don't expect to see in a modern shmup.current gen pressures while trying to implement enough gaming nuance
This is exactly the sort of game I'd expect to see from someone who wants to make a shmup but has never actually played them seriously and has no idea how to implement good gameplay, so they just focus on the graphical side of things and hope nobody notices how badly unpolished the game itself is (which is usually a recipe for success if mainstream reviewers are anything to judge by >:/ ).
You have played the game, correct? (Because I hadn't).
Pretentiousness I don't know about and don't agree with. Hipsterness the same - I wasn't actually aware any of that stuff was what the game was getting ribbed for, and I never heard the 'rebooting the genre' soundbyte. Under the circumstances, none of that stuff makes sense or is necessary, but in selling a shmup to a bunch of spoonfed childrens playing Call of Duty, I'm sure they figured the commercial hyperbole was a do or die thing. If they were marketing to us, for instance, they probably would have sold ten copies.
This dovetails into the game itself. Scoring who knows, there are plenty of opportunities in the structure to have implemented a decent system - if they didn't (and I haven't looked into it that far) then it's their loss. But what's leftover isn't as horrible as you make it sound. It plays and handles well enough, the bullet patterns and time manipulation aren't worthless gimmicks, and there's actually more going on in terms of dodging than your average current-gen 'hold-R-to-perform-incredible-acrobatics' chimpanzee is going to be able to deal with easily. So when you say these things:
It really doesn't come across that way.painfully mediocre effort
Bad that they didn't do more with scoring mechanics (for diehards like us), but borrowing ideas is what creativity is all about.It's especially bad seeing as how its special abilities are ripped off from games that had scoring designed specifically around their use!
Not entirely. I've played worse, believe you me - it doesn't appear to be an STG where the dev took zero influence from other examples in the genre. Suicide bullets on maniac, arcade mode, reasonably dense patterns, destructible boss appendages (tied to a timer mechanic) and Galuda's slo-mo. Some notes were taken, and it's not a disastrous stew, just perhaps one lacking a little flavour.This is exactly the sort of game I'd expect to see from someone who wants to make a shmup but has never actually played them seriously
Well it plays ok! Fairly good fun keeping the timer in check and finding things to shoot, loosing off missiles and slowing stuff down. It works as it should. Doesn't redefine the genre or shake up the world, but you can have some with what's there.and has no idea how to implement good gameplay
Lamenting the lack of a decent scoring system is a negative to highlight, but saying it's 'badly unpolished' is strangely inaccurate. We know what's missing, we know what it needs more of, we can see it's not perfect. But what they did do they worked on to a decent shine.so they just focus on the graphical side of things and hope nobody notices how badly unpolished the game itself is
I should note, I've only played the demo - that's one full stage and one full maniac stage additionally. It might turn into a completely boring frustrating pile of nonsense if I ever tried to play it through.
But based on what I have played, it feels like we've gone way over the top in this thread. There are fuckload of Euroshmups that are worse than this.
Always outnumbered, never outgunned - No zuo no die
ChurchOfSolipsism wrote: ALso, this is how SKykid usually posts
-
BareKnuckleRoo
- Posts: 6199
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:01 am
- Location: Southern Ontario
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
They don't know what a firing rate cap is for. This isn't an early 80s shmup, this is supposed to be 2013. So, no, no it doesn't. Don't lower your standards to try and defend this sillyness.Skykid wrote:Well it plays ok!
-
CStarFlare
- Posts: 3003
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:41 am
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
Didn't we just have a thread about autofire abuse in Darius Gaiden? It strikes me as odd that it's a damning flaw in Sine Mora but with Gaiden it's just like "well if you don't like it just don't abuse autofire."
-
Bananamatic
- Posts: 3530
- Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:21 pm
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
Darius Gaiden was in 1994
-
CStarFlare
- Posts: 3003
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:41 am
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
Darius Gaiden wasn't an early 80s ship either. It was also the third entry in a well established series by a company that had released a dozen shmups under their belt, not a first time effort by a small developer.
None if that really matters though; autofire abuse is either game breaking or it isn't. Whether or not they have a better excuse is beside the point when considering its impact on the gameplay.
None if that really matters though; autofire abuse is either game breaking or it isn't. Whether or not they have a better excuse is beside the point when considering its impact on the gameplay.
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
no need to have autofire in Sine Mora if you're using the GE-22 ship
the spread in the other ships makes them harder to manage
the spread in the other ships makes them harder to manage
-
Squire Grooktook
- Posts: 5969
- Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:39 am
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
It's definitely not the worst shmup I've ever payed money for either, but I do think it's a bad game. It's more than just being bland or having a bad scoring system, a lot of the mechanics are poorly implemented (the galuda-esque powers having the meter on the other side of the screen, no slow down for when you're trying to dodge dense slow patterns iirc, etc.), the level design is also really bland throughout, with lots of repetition and awkward breaks.Skykid wrote: I've played worse, believe you me - it doesn't appear to be an STG where the dev took zero influence from other examples in the genre. Suicide bullets on maniac, arcade mode, reasonably dense patterns, destructible boss appendages (tied to a timer mechanic) and Galuda's slo-mo. Some notes were taken, and it's not a disastrous stew, just perhaps one lacking a little flavour.
"Legendary Kusoge"? Hardly, but I definitely think it qualifies as a bad shmup.
The first stage is a bit deceptive.Skykid wrote: I should note, I've only played the demo - that's one full stage and one full maniac stage additionally. It might turn into a completely boring frustrating pile of nonsense if I ever tried to play it through.
But based on what I have played, it feels like we've gone way over the top in this thread. There are fuckload of Euroshmups that are worse than this.
But yeah I agree, this thread is way too much of a bile-fest. It's a bit uncalled for especially since I think it only happened because the game got a few decent reviews.
Aeon Zenith - My STG.RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................
Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
-
- Posts: 345
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:30 am
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
I don't know why but about 2/3 of my hatred towards this game is the fact that the hardest boss pattern is on the first boss and the auto shield to get through it with your multiplier intact is a random drop. The game is too long to piss me off that early.
-
Formless God
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:46 am
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
Mechanics clashing the fuck out of each other. Wanna use that slowdown? Better hope you have a screen full of enemies to make up for the time loss because the timer still decays at the normal rate during it. Wanna dodge things with that slowdown? Fat chance. You'll blow up before you reach the next checkpoint.
Non-constant player speed. Try tilting the analog slightly, then tilt it all the way.
Randomized item drop.
Power items moving off-screen on death, again, randomly.
Particle effects up the ass and environment elements obstructing the player ship. But hey, if those smoke and underwater bullet trails looks pretty, everything is A-OK.
Fucking hell.
Non-constant player speed. Try tilting the analog slightly, then tilt it all the way.
Randomized item drop.
Power items moving off-screen on death, again, randomly.
Particle effects up the ass and environment elements obstructing the player ship. But hey, if those smoke and underwater bullet trails looks pretty, everything is A-OK.
Fucking hell.
RegalSin wrote:Then again sex is no diffrent then sticking a stick down some hole to make a female womenly or girl scream or make noise.
-
alpachinko
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:32 am
- Location: Manchester UK
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
Been playing through on vita. Its not bad, certainly nowhere near the quality of some other shmups of last gen. Visually this is pretty awesome if at times a bit distracting. The biggest letdown is the story keeps break up the continuity.
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
I'm not lowering my standards lol, I'm telling you the level of criticism appears to have been overly aggressive. I mean, I paid money for Joint Strike, and it's better than that.BareknuckleRoo wrote:They don't know what a firing rate cap is for. This isn't an early 80s shmup, this is supposed to be 2013. So, no, no it doesn't. Don't lower your standards to try and defend this sillyness.Skykid wrote:Well it plays ok!
No autofire cap is an error, but if you keep an eye on the timer it never allows you to go into astronomical figures. So it's easier, granted, but you still need to be actively seeking things out to destroy while not eating bullets.
It does?Formless God wrote:Wanna use that slowdown? Better hope you have a screen full of enemies to make up for the time loss because the timer still decays at the normal rate during it.
EDIT: No it doesn't, just tried it. Unless the Vita version has been changed, the timer slows down when you use the slowdown mechanic.
I only played d-pad yesterday, but the analog is actually quite precise depending on how you want to manoeuvre. On a Dual Shock it might be hell though, granted.Non-constant player speed. Try tilting the analog slightly, then tilt it all the way.
Yeah, don't like any of this.Randomized item drop.
Power items moving off-screen on death, again, randomly.
Particle effects up the ass and environment elements obstructing the player ship. But hey, if those smoke and underwater bullet trails looks pretty, everything is A-OK.
I was afraid of that, which is why I mentioned it. You make a good call about the slo-mo meter being on the wrong side of the HUD too, that's irritating. A dial around the ship would have been much better.Squire Grooktook wrote: The first stage is a bit deceptive.
Always outnumbered, never outgunned - No zuo no die
ChurchOfSolipsism wrote: ALso, this is how SKykid usually posts
-
CStarFlare
- Posts: 3003
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:41 am
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
The first stage is probably the worst; between the first boss and the tunnels after it it's not hard to see where people just kind of walk away from the game.
Once you hit stage 2 you're basically guaranteed to have at least have a decent shot built up and the game is a little less annoying for a while.
Once you hit stage 2 you're basically guaranteed to have at least have a decent shot built up and the game is a little less annoying for a while.
-
Formless God
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:46 am
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
You're right; I must've been looking at the wrong digit. I remember having a run where I used the slowdown and the timer ran out before I could reach the checkpoint although I didn't make any other mistakes, though, so be careful when using it.Skykid wrote:No it doesn't, just tried it. Unless the Vita version has been changed, the timer slows down when you use the slowdown mechanic.
I think it's a lot less intuitive than just having a focus button. And yes it doesn't work with keyboard/d-pad at all.I only played d-pad yesterday, but the analog is actually quite precise depending on how you want to manoeuvre. On a Dual Shock it might be hell though, granted.
RegalSin wrote:Then again sex is no diffrent then sticking a stick down some hole to make a female womenly or girl scream or make noise.
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
It's sad that the only thing making me want to buy and play this game is basically this "it sucks/no it doesn't" debate. I can't believe me being really curious as to what's up with this is too much to resist. And if it really is very bad from my personal experience with it, then I'll feel really bad for supporting more trash to be released in the future due to good sales... or is it really in the best interest of the genre to buy any new release shmup, really good or really bad? Can't believe this genre is at the merci of casual gamers too... "We're doomed!"
-
professor ganson
- Posts: 5163
- Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:59 am
- Location: OHIO
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
I think this game is free right now on PS+, and I still haven't been moved to download it. Life's too short to spend time on shmups that even the shmup community can't get behind.
-
Thjodbjorn
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:36 pm
- Location: Minnesota
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
The vita version is much more enjoyable. I don't know why.
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
Could be that it was ported by G.Rev.Thjodbjorn wrote:The vita version is much more enjoyable. I don't know why.
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
I think G.rev deconfirmed this a little while back.Pretas wrote:Could be that it was ported by G.Rev.Thjodbjorn wrote:The vita version is much more enjoyable. I don't know why.
-
Squire Grooktook
- Posts: 5969
- Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:39 am
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
It's not supporting the genre to buy a mediocre game that didn't make a ton of money anyway.Sinful wrote:It's sad that the only thing making me want to buy and play this game is basically this "it sucks/no it doesn't" debate. I can't believe me being really curious as to what's up with this is too much to resist. And if it really is very bad from my personal experience with it, then I'll feel really bad for supporting more trash to be released in the future due to good sales... or is it really in the best interest of the genre to buy any new release shmup, really good or really bad? Can't believe this genre is at the merci of casual gamers too... "We're doomed!"
"Casuals" haven't supported this genre since the Super Nintendo/arcade days anyway, so I wouldn't worry about being at their mercy.
Aeon Zenith - My STG.RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................
Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
That might explain why I'm a bit surprised at the level of bile spitting. It's the only version I've sampled.Thjodbjorn wrote:The vita version is much more enjoyable. I don't know why.
How do you mean? The Vita d-pad works very well (decent d-pad for a start) and there's no variable speed of course, just one constant.Formless God wrote:I think it's a lot less intuitive than just having a focus button. And yes it doesn't work with keyboard/d-pad at all.I only played d-pad yesterday, but the analog is actually quite precise depending on how you want to manoeuvre. On a Dual Shock it might be hell though, granted.
Always outnumbered, never outgunned - No zuo no die
ChurchOfSolipsism wrote: ALso, this is how SKykid usually posts
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
I haven't played the game so I can't be 100% sure but I heard the game had analog and not digital movement, and if you use the D-Pad, you always go at full speed, which makes some sections very tricky to go through.
Remote Weapon GunFencer - My shmup projectRegalSin wrote: I think I have downloaded so much I am bored with downloading. No really I bored with downloading stuff I might consider moving to Canada or the pacific.
-
Bananamatic
- Posts: 3530
- Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:21 pm
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
lol are you seriousM.Knight wrote:I haven't played the game so I can't be 100% sure but I heard the game had analog and not digital movement, and if you use the D-Pad, you always go at full speed, which makes some sections very tricky to go through.
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
Isn't that corect? Am I mistaken?
I said I wasn't sure so if there is an error, feel free to correct me.
I said I wasn't sure so if there is an error, feel free to correct me.
Remote Weapon GunFencer - My shmup projectRegalSin wrote: I think I have downloaded so much I am bored with downloading. No really I bored with downloading stuff I might consider moving to Canada or the pacific.
-
- Posts: 345
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:30 am
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
You are correct!
-
Never_Scurred
- Posts: 1800
- Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 1:09 am
- Location: St. Louis, MO
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
Too bad the Sine Mora's devs never got the message until it was too late.Squire Grooktook wrote: "Casuals" haven't supported this genre since the Super Nintendo/arcade days anyway, so I wouldn't worry about being at their mercy.
Building a game from a niche genre based upon the taste of gamers who don't actually support the genre....this project was a fail from the start.
"It's a joke how the Xbox platform has caught shit for years for only having shooters, but now it's taken on an entirely different meaning."-somebody on NeoGAF
Watch me make Ketsui my bitch.
Watch me make Ketsui my bitch.
-
Squire Grooktook
- Posts: 5969
- Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:39 am
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
Beautifully put. I feel this is something that should be taken account of by fighting game developers as well.Never_Scurred wrote:Too bad the Sine Mora's devs never got the message until it was too late.Squire Grooktook wrote: "Casuals" haven't supported this genre since the Super Nintendo/arcade days anyway, so I wouldn't worry about being at their mercy.
Building a game from a niche genre based upon the taste of gamers who don't actually support the genre....this project was a fail from the start.
Aeon Zenith - My STG.RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................
Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
It's not that bad fool!Never_Scurred wrote:Too bad the Sine Mora's devs never got the message until it was too late.Squire Grooktook wrote: "Casuals" haven't supported this genre since the Super Nintendo/arcade days anyway, so I wouldn't worry about being at their mercy.
Building a game from a niche genre based upon the taste of gamers who don't actually support the genre....this project was a fail from the start.
Play it (on Vita) and then have a bitch.
Yep, that's right. But I prefer d-pad movement: top speed is normal speed for a shmup ship, the analog just allows crawling (which can be useful, but you're at the mercy of how good the analog stick actually is. I wouldn't use a dual shock for instance.)M.Knight wrote:I haven't played the game so I can't be 100% sure but I heard the game had analog and not digital movement, and if you use the D-Pad, you always go at full speed, which makes some sections very tricky to go through.
Always outnumbered, never outgunned - No zuo no die
ChurchOfSolipsism wrote: ALso, this is how SKykid usually posts
Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
just downloaded the vita demo. gonna give it a go on here ..... and then see if I bitch.