What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

[SGGG2]

I'd rather not replace my xrgb3 if I don't have to. Seems like all new LCD/LED/Plasma models have ditched the vga input

I'm positively gushing over my XRGB-3, Gefen VGA to DVI Scaler plus combo. On top of proving connectivity, The Gefen is low lag, calms the XRGB's shakey vertical sync to the point where it's practically invisible and has all sorts ratio and viewing options. If I'm not mistaken, Fudoh has one for sale on his website for a song.

[blackoak]

Thanks for the responses. I guess I shouldn't be afraid of another item in the signal chain then, and go with a Gefen or Box1020 and a new tv like the w900. I run the xrgb3 in b1 mode already. It sounds like the cumulative lag of the vga converter and a low lag display like the w900 will still be lower than my current LG lcd (don't have the model number unfortunately, bought it sometime in 2010 without any research, before I even knew of things like the xrgb).

alamone, perhaps I'll have to come by sometime before the next meet and check it out... and get a little Gunnail in, haha.

[alamone]

I used to have the Gefen VGA to DVI scaler but I decided to take it out of my video chain.
It was adding latency and tearing to my signal, which is a no-no for me.

For me, keeping the signal in the analog domain as much as possible is preferable, since
conversion to HDMI seems to add too much latency. That's why I prefer avoiding the XRGB-mini
unless the monitor only has digital inputs or cannot sync to the signal.

[SGGG2]

Yeah, I get tearing once in a great while too. Konsolkongen and BuckoA51 had the same issue. For my purposes it's been a minor annoyance. The set your using plays a role, so YMMV. Bucko has more at his website; http://www.videogameperfection.com/av-gear/gefen-faq/

[Fudoh]

To get some perspective on the numbers:

The XRGB-3 has 1-2ms of lag.
The Gefen adds between 1 and 16ms, depending on how you measure and how close the input refresh is the standard rates.
A DVDO adds 6-7ms of lag.

Framemeister has 24ms of lag.

XRGB-3 + DVDO Edge is the most versatile combo you can get for a TV without VGA input.

[Xyga]

Got myself a Sony W6 today (KDL-W650A).

I have yet to figure a couple of things but here are my first impressions:

- No banding, DSE, dead pixels or whatever (maybe I'm just lucky since so many people reported such issues if you check the W6 thread on avsforum.com)
- Excellent picture quality, had to turn the light sensor off though (too dark otherwise)
- Blacks looks black thanks to the MVA panel
- Viewing angles aren't as open as an IPS's, but wide enough
- Reactivity / motion handling isn't great.
Compared to my old LG LD450 it feels a bit slower, with more noticeable afterimages and simulated scanlines disappearing completely with an XRGB and MUSHA for instance.
Same impression while gaming on a 360 and polygonal games.
Still, it is a bigger screen than my LG which was 32" so it gets better if I sit further.
Nothing dramatic but it is a bit behind my old IPS tv and definitely far behind several good 27" pc monitors currently available.
- Can't say anything about input lag yet as I don't get what the corret setting to get the famed 15ms are, there's no 'Game' mode available in the settings.

One technical issue I have is that the audio from my VP30 is not detected/supported.

To be continued...

[Fudoh]

- Can't say anything about input lag yet as I don't get what the corret setting to get the famed 15ms are, there's no 'Game' mode available in the settings.

Options > Scene > Game.

Results in 4:4:4 chroma sampling, a completely different scaling engine for the component input, choice of deinterlacing mode (field or frame) and of course an extremely low input lag (sub 0.5 frames on 42" and 50").

For 1080p motion handling you can activate the strobing backlight, but it will cause ghosting on certain color combinations (especially any combinations involving green and red).

Which size did you get ?

[Fudoh]

simulated scanlines disappearing completely with an XRGB and MUSHA for instance.

but you're aware that this even happens on a CRT with any vertically scrolling yoko game ?

[Xyga]

Yup found the 'scene' options and set to game - original, thanks.
Input lag is indeed very low, quite a difference from my LG that has about 30ms by itself.

I've got the 42" (42W650) and indeed you are right about the scanlines 'disappearance' effect, I get something similar on my 72cm Trinitron.
Looks a bit dirty/disturbing on the W6 though, but maybe the overscan I'm using from the VP30 made it worse...
I like playing yoko games without simulated scanlines so it is not a big deal.

I have tried the strobing backlight feature (led motion) and it is a huge improvement for motion, it almost completely eliminates ghosting, but the picture gets much too dark and after maybe 20 mn the flickering was killing me.
I wonder if the missing 'MotionFlow' present on higher models really does improve motion without the drawbacks of the W6's led motion... I wish I could try a W8 or W9 to compare.
The 40" W9 is my 'dream' tv, but definitely too expensive.

Anyway, the whole point of the 42W6 is to get a big picture with low lag at a relatively affordable price, and for that it is a big success.
The deep black levels make it and excellent set for watching movies as well so there's really not much to complain about, I absolutely do not regret my 500€.

Now let's see... should I buy the Asus VN279QLB as well ?

completely different scaling engine for the component input, choice of deinterlacing mode (field or frame)

Seriously ? Can you develop on that ?

[Fudoh]

I wonder if the missing 'MotionFlow' present on higher models really does improve motion without the drawbacks of the W6's led motion... I wish I could try a W8 or W9 to compare.

I think the W series in general is limited to 120Hz (that's 60Hz flicker) in game mode. I have 240Hz on my HX9, it's fantastic, but it's not available in gamemode.

Now let's see... should I buy the Asus VN279QLB as well ?

The reviews show bad uspcaling. I wanted to get one, but I won't before I don't how it performs with 480p/720p scanlined images. I fear for the worst.

[Xyga]

The reviews show bad uspcaling. I wanted to get one, but I won't before I don't how it performs with 480p/720p scanlined images. I fear for the worst.

Well I have a pal who is extremely happy with it and his XRGB-2:
http://forum.shmup.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... &start=870

He's got a few more pictures on his instagram: http://instagram.com/p/edEXhqF5_7/

[Fudoh]

thanks! Looking good. I'll probably get one for a dedicated tate setup.

Any other recommendations from that french thread ? I think the Asus is the 2013 choice for a AMVA panel and the Dell S2740 is still the IPS one to go for.

[Xyga]

Well for AMVA+ there's the Samsung S27C750P as well, bit better blacks compared to the Asus but the RTC overdrive isn't as configurable/good.
The Asus's trace free is incredible, best in class for a 60Hz VA.

Aside from those two all the BenQ VA are getting fkicker-free backlighting so it makes the new GW2760HM (classic VA) worthy of attention, but I couldn't find any reviews of the updated part numbers.

For IPS the AOC i2757fm is (was?) overall better than the Dell S2740, but PWM...
I don't know about the newer IPS/PLS models from various brands though, got to read more reviews.

EDIT: translation of his impressions over the Asus:

- NO GHOSTING
- NO LAG
- INCRDIBLE VIEWING ANGLES
- NO FLICKERING
- ALL SYSTEMS LOOKS AWESOME ON IT THROUGH THE XRGB-2
- BONER

I have to add the blacks look good but some pleople complained they're not as deep as they were on classic VAs.
With a 3000:1 constrast ratio we're far from teh 5000:1 of the old BenQs for instance, but that's still much better than most IPS struggling to reach 1000:1

[Fudoh]

I have to add the blacks look good but some pleople complained they're not as deep as they were on classic VAs.

for me it's not this easy. Coming from a set with local dimming where you basically get 100% blacks. On the W6 the viewing angle is quite important. The set needs to be spot on on eye level to show good blacks throughout the corners.

The Samsung 750P has a glossy bezel. Not a fan of that. The Dell works with 50Hz signals from the XRGB. Any chance you could ask your buddy if the Asus is 50Hz compatible as well through the XRGB-2 ?

BenQ has terrible upscaling (confirmed to be really broken with scanlined images).

[Xyga]

I have to add the blacks look good but some pleople complained they're not as deep as they were on classic VAs.

for me it's not this easy. Coming from a set with local dimming where you basically get 100% blacks. On the W6 the viewing angle is quite important. The set needs to be spot on on eye level to show good blacks throughout the corners.

I see what you mean, still the W6 handles black/dark scenes a hundred times better than my LG with IPS panel.
Regarding the not-so-deep black of the Asus, this is what people complained about (check Lebowsky's comparison pics):
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?s=9 ... 409&page=4

The Dell works with 50Hz signals from the XRGB. Any chance you could ask your buddy if the Asus is 50Hz compatible as well through the XRGB-2 ?

I've just dropped him an email, I'll let you know asap.

BenQ has terrible upscaling (confirmed to be really broken with scanlined images).

Well I could experience a GW2750HM with an XRGB-2 myself and it looked pretty good.
Couldn't notice any unevenly sized scanlines or moire patterns.
But I have only tried with Toaplan & Cave boards.
I could ask the guy who owns the GW2750HM to tell us more about it, he's using it with an XRGB-2+, he never mentioned such issues, not even with his NEC consoles... (he's from necstasy).

[Ed Oscuro]

Arasoi mentioned finding a panel for $20, the Samsung Syncmaster 930.

Bad point first: It interprets all NTSC signals as 480i, even 240p, so moving 240p elements have artifacts (i.e., left-to-right movement is interlaced). It also has an ugly design.

Good points: It has tons of inputs - accepts 720p, has VGA, DVI, component, RGB SCART, S-Video, Composite, RF.
It might be an interesting choice for some systems from the 480i era and 720p.

[Fudoh]

Regarding the not-so-deep black of the Asus, this is what people complained about (check Lebowsky's comparison pics):

I think much of that is due to the weird brightness implementation that most of todays monitor's have where the internal backlight setting is directly linked to the user controlable brightness (black level) setting. I'll buy new PC monitors next year, but I'll most likely stay with IPS. The angles and colors are just a leap ahead of VA and after using IPS panels for 10+ years, I still think it's the way to go. Waiting for that 34" Dell 21:9 right now. Would be a great choice to replace two of my 21" NECs.

I've asked about that bad BenQ model with bad scaling. Will report back when I learn more.

[Xyga]

The Asus's AMVA+'s performance is extremely close to current top 27" IPS monitors (if not better in some fields), but I have to admit I'd buy an IPS like the AOC i2757fm if only it was flicker-free...

Or a something similar with higher resolution and confirmed very good/fast upscaling.

Just dreaming; they ALL have one or two flaws.

[Fudoh]

Most reviews' upscaling tests are nothing to bet on, but Prad usually tests a 720p grid with a 1/0/0/1 line pattern that pretty much resembles the Mini's 720p output with scanlines. And especially on the Asus this looked really, really bad (left and right edge in the middle).



NEC's new 24" model in comparison:



(images courtesy of prad.de)

[Xyga]

Really bad indeed.
But if 720p looks wrong, will it necessarily be the same for 480p ?
Guess it all depends on some kind of algorythms the engineers have stuffed into the set...

[Fudoh]

no, certainly one can look great while the other looks like s***. Ideally I would like to have panel which looks fine with both.

[Xyga]

Hey there's an SBM (super bit mapping) feature active on the W6's inputs.
Should it be on or off ?

[Fudoh]

shouldn't matter. That's a color upsampling option, so - in theory - some gradients should appear smoother when upscaling is involved. Why they now have a dedidated gradient smoothing option in addtion - I don't know. Nor have I ever seen a real effect on engaging SBM.

[Xyga]

My pal replied: the VN279QLB does accept 50Hz from an XRGB-2 (tested with PAL MD & SNES, he said it worked flawlessly).

[Fudoh]

thanks! that's a nice bonus for the European users.

[Xyga]

Regarding 480p upscaling though, he also said that when looking closely at the sky on the first level of Border Down (DC in VGA) he could notice some sort of checkered pattern artifact...

Still, everything coming from the XRGB-2 looks awesome.

[Fudoh]

that's because the monitor just sees VESA 640x480 through VGA. If he wants perfect upscaling on DC games, he needs to use a VGA to Component to HDMI processing chain. Same thing on all monitors and TVs. Component and HDMI know 720x480, VGA just knows 640x480. The artefacts he sees is caused by the downsampling from 720 pixel width to 640 pixels.

[ZellSF]

Is transcoding Dreamcast's VGA output to component viable for TV use with proper 720x480?

[Fudoh]

sure, but the overall component processing quality on many TVs isn't this hot.

[Xyga]

I see, thanks for the explanation.