Darius Gaiden auto fire cheat. What evidence says its right?

[MathU]

Taito probably did the same thing for the Darius Gaiden port after seeing autofire circuits become standard for high score players and in arcades.

Do you mean to say that Taito endorses it? If so, how do you mean? Including it as a cheat code in the ports? And even then, no amount of developer endorsement can change the fact that it fundamentally alters the game and was never originally intended. A proper endorsement would have had to change many things about the game to make it balance right. The ultra rapidfire doesn't increase the depth of scoring, it trivializes it in many ways. Darius Gaiden is I believe the only game in the Darius series with adaptive difficulty, and any aspect of managing this for optimal scoring goes out the window along with much of the skill involved in how you handle boss body parts and which ones you destroy. If one attempts to compare any scores regardless of route in Darius Gaiden then Great Thing suddenly wipes out the three other fairly closely-tied scoring routes thanks to the ability to easily milk its drills without dropping bombs or fearing death from not killing the boss fast enough.

The standard for competitive play and records everywhere is with autofire enabled. Which makes discussion about that irrelevant and pointless if you want to compete.

Competing against whom exactly? There's nothing saying you have to follow that rule for whatever competition you've setup. Without the arguments used by those so-called standard-bearers for using it then it's simply an ad populum fallacy. On the other hand, there are plenty of arguments against using it in scoring competition. Discussion is not "irrelevant and pointless". You don't get to shut it down by saying we should all do what everyone else does just because.

[Sinful]

Please explain how it's a hack. It doesn't modify the game in any way. It is not a hack. It is widely accepted as normal and standard in all real arcade scenarios, and I don't think I've ever heard of a JP arcade without some form of autofire setup.

If it wasn't originally in on the game's release date, it's a hack. Why this so hard to get? Oh, right, right, right. You're in denial. ... You'll get over it, and become a better shmuping man once you put things like insane auto fire rates behind you, too. You'll see, and you'll thank me.

The high score table allows autofire because it's standard in Japanese arcades and disallowing it would mean not allowing participants to compete on comparable terms. You can still submit entries without it, so I don't see the big deal.

Honestly, I don't see how this is much different than using autofire in Mushihimesama. It may not have been something Cave put in the PCB, but it became standard after players realized they could exploit the scoring system better with autofire hacks and Cave ended up making them a feature in the ports. Taito probably did the same thing for the Darius Gaiden port after seeing autofire circuits become standard for high score players and in arcades.

Well, maybe the official Darius Gaiden was rebalanced around the much higher auto fire rate, but it still don't mean the original was.

And I don't care what the Japanese do if it's wrong. Especiallly in these days where all gamers are getting real lazy when it comes to playing more challenging games. Japan included. Cause what's wrong is wrong. Simple as that. And what most do is pretty freakin retarded for the most part, let's face it (don't mean to be rude with this remark, but saldy it's very true. And all the more reason to think for yourself. Always).

And you're bringing a Cave game's auto fire to compare?! Lame. Ultra combo lame.

The standard for competitive play and records everywhere is with autofire enabled. Which makes discussion about that irrelevant and pointless if you want to compete.

You can still play the game casually however you like.

Again. If it's 1 delay/30Hz auto fire that goes well above what the game was designed around (as in. It breaks the game. The game is broken. You've just enabled a super cheat code! Ding, ding, ding. etc. etc), then this is some load of BS, and I'm not buying. ... It also must mean that total pussy gamers completely rule the world now (and again, I do not exaggerate. These so called gamers are beyond pitiful & only gamers I witness with my own eyes anymore)? Even in Japan it seems? And this really breaks my heart, casue it's only a matter of time now when challenging video games becomes a complete thing of the past. There's already words like "Nintendo hard." These holding hand games of today are just the beginning.

I feel I've said just about all I can possibly say on this in several other threads now. Pretty simply: the ~30 Hz rapidfire hack/cheat attached to some arcade setups and found in the console ports cracks the game wide open, eliminating a fair bit of the depth from the game and very drastically lowering its difficulty. This idea that you need to break your hand to beat the game is silly. The game's default firing rate is perfectly adequate for handling the vast majority of situations without ever even needing to tap the shot button. Part of the skill in the game is all about learning how to use your weapons properly and rapidfire removes the necessity for that.

Yes, all you say makes perfect sense. Shocking others can't see it? Especially with all these pitiful & invalid excuses I'm getting as to why it's perfectly fine, like "Hey man, this PCP here is real good. And cut just right. No, it don't turn people in vegetables at an alarming rate. Why would everyone be doing it then? Here, it's fine. Trust me. Be one of us. One of us." And there are so many valid reasons why it's so wrong too. *Sigh* Why are people not seeing the abvious here, MathU? What's really up & I'm missing? Cause this shouldn't even be a debate, in how open and shut this case is. ... Unless that pussy gamer remark of mine is more contagious then I thought? (And relax, I'm far from an above average skilled gamer or even a masochist. I mean, I'll even play easy mode for a bit to wet my feet if I feel the game is butt kicking me too much. It's just that I believe in being honest with oneself. Unbelieveable that people lie to themselves, but everyone does it. Why you got to always keep an eye out for it).

[Smraedis]

I think I've seen more threads mention about autofire on just this single game game more than anything else.

My opinion is that the default fire speed is just too slow, if only it was faster, then people and arcades won't use such autofires.

And I'll add that I can press buttons really crazy fast, however I choose not to do this to save my fingers and my buttons.

[To Far Away Times]

I'd argue it ends up becoming a better game with autofire enabled. That's probably the main reason the autofire hack is "acceptable" in this game and not in many others.

Then why is everyone affraid of playing shmups below normal difficulty? Doesn't auto fire cheat in this game make it easier then normal difficulty? Maybe easier then easy, even? Yeah. It don't add up. If you don't believe in playing on Easy difficulty settings, the same should apply to 1 delay auto fire.

My argument isn't based on difficulty, but pacing.

[ACSeraph]

Man this thread was asking for a shitstorm lol. We should probly tone down the harsh words a bit.

I do find it a bit telling that when I innocently mentioned this in the Darius Love thread there wasn't much backlash against the idea that the cheat shallows the game. That thread has a different audience I guess.

I think in Darius Gaiden's case people want to justify their use of the cheat because they are lazy and don't want put in the amount of effort required to face the full on challenge of the game. That's actually fine by me, but don't pretend you are playing the same game as the people who play auto-off, or that you are playing the game as the original designer intended.

I think the fact that you never even get to see most of the beautifully designed boss attacks when using it proves that. Why would the devloper put so much effort into designing amazing attacks that no one will ever see?

The fact is that you may want to just tear it up and get an easy clear, and that's fine, but you definitely aren't feeling the Darius Love in that case. I also feel kind of sorry for the guy who sat there designing this beatiful game around the slower firing rate that most players will never even see due to player laziness.

Point is Gaiden with autofire cheat is a different game from Gaiden without, and I think a lot of arguments could be made that the latter is the deeper, more challenging, better game.

[Dave_K.]

Low tech solution: wire the bottom three buttons on your panel all to "shot" and roll your three fingers across them to achive a very fast rate...then you can 1CC it and claim you did it without autofire.

[trap15]

You'll get over it, and become a better shmuping man once you put things like insane auto fire rates behind you, too. You'll see, and you'll thank me.

LOL. I spent the longest time without autofire. I got substantially better after I embraced autofire. Even on games where I don't use autofire. So yeah. I'm also pretty sure I'm better than you. *slaps with glove*

[retardation removed for brevity]

You're really dumb, you know that?

[NTSC-J]

This to me is the most baffling debate in shmupdom. To the Darius Gaiden truthers who are so anti-autofire: is anyone who supports using autofire for this game claiming that it's harder than without? Is anyone comparing autofire scores with carpal tunnel scores?

Since people have been keeping track of scores, there has always been the distinction between the two. Yes, Darius Gaiden with autofire is easier. The point has been made. The affect this has on high score competition is that a lower difficulty requires more optimization, so getting a world record score with auto requires absolutely perfect play, which is obviously still a challenge.

To you manly men who chew bark, shave without getting the razor wet, and play Darius Gaiden without autofire, you need not bother yourself with how people are scoring playing the other way. Play with your rule set and enjoy.

[ACSeraph]

The affect this has on high score competition is that a lower difficulty requires more optimization, so getting a world record score with auto requires absolutely perfect play, which is obviously still a challenge.

Could you elaborate on this? I'm legitimately curious.

I actually personally don't care how people play anything they want to play, and which version of Gaiden is 'better' likely comes down to personal taste. Personally I wasn't aware of the cheats existence, so I had been playing without it thinking it was a pretty balanced game. When I first heard about it, tried the cheat, and cut through the bosses before they even made it through half their attacks I knew it wasn't for me. But it's just preference, hence why I didn't bring it up again outside the other thread.

I think the reason it drives certain people nuts though is that this community generally follows a set of rules that involves taking the more difficult approach to these games. When the community rallies against auto-bombs in DFK (a built in feature that you MUST use) but then is OK with putting in an actual cheat code to slice through Gaiden it does seem a little weird. Again I don't really care much, but that's the best answer I can give you as to why the debate comes up.

Remember too this isn't a debate about autofire in general, just this particular game that appears to have been carefully built around its slower speed. Some people feel passionately enough about it that they wan't to compell others to play it as originally intended.

The scoreboard thread being mixed rather than seperate tables probably doesn't help matters.

[NTSC-J]

The affect this has on high score competition is that a lower difficulty requires more optimization, so getting a world record score with auto requires absolutely perfect play, which is obviously still a challenge.

Could you elaborate on this? I'm legitimately curious.

This is true for any game, but the lower the difficulty, the less room for error. Dodonpachi is a very difficult game, so the record of 743m is still not optimal and can be improved. However, if you take a game that doesn't offer much of a challenge, players need to play absolutely perfectly in order to improve scores and it's usually by very slim margins. The Darius Gaiden autofire records haven't been beaten in 18 years, and if they ever are, it will likely be by a piddly amount of points.

[Acid King]

Do you mean to say that Taito endorses it? If so, how do you mean?

Only that Taito saw how the game was being approached by arcade gamers and inserted the code to allow home players to play it the same way. I agree that autofire makes the game far easier, I cleared it in a day and a half with autofire after owning the game for years and never even reaching the final stages at the default rate on Saturn. I just don't see how allowing autofire in competitive play is that big a deal, especially when restricting competition to base firing rate only is as easy as opening a new thread.

Well, maybe the official Darius Gaiden was rebalanced around the much higher auto fire rate, but it still don't mean the original was.

And I don't care what the Japanese do if it's wrong. Especiallly in these days where all gamers are getting real lazy when it comes to playing more challenging games. Japan included. Cause what's wrong is wrong. Simple as that. And what most do is pretty freakin retarded for the most part, let's face it (don't mean to be rude with this remark, but saldy it's very true. And all the more reason to think for yourself. Always).

And you're bringing a Cave game's auto fire to compare?! Lame. Ultra combo lame.

Don't be a twat. I specifically addressed why the high score table allows it and you brush it aside without even addressing the points made: that not allowing autofire means scores aren't comparable to scores set in JP arcades where it is standard. It has nothing to do with right and wrong and everything to do with set parameters for competitive play. You're free to either submit scores without autofire or even start a new thread limited to non-autofire scores so again, who fucking cares?

Also, I don't know if it's ignorance or what that makes you "LOL Cave game" at the mention of Mushihimesama, but maybe you should read up on its scoring mechanics and how autofire plays into it before dismissing the comparison.

[ACSeraph]

That doesn't really seem like a good thing to me, effectively it makes it more manic rather than risk oriented. Or am I wrong about that? To each his own I guess...

[MathU]

The affect this has on high score competition is that a lower difficulty requires more optimization, so getting a world record score with auto requires absolutely perfect play, which is obviously still a challenge.

I'm not understanding this reasoning at all. One of the effects the ultra rapidfire has is allowing you to make many more mistakes at high-point levels due to not needing to worry about managing the game's adaptive difficulty in going after some of the later captains in the game (major sources of points). If a world record score with rapidfire requires absolutely perfect play then a world record score without rapidfire requires absolutely perfect play and then some. The challenge is of course much greater. Why would a higher difficulty require no less optimization... Instead of more?

[NTSC-J]

The affect this has on high score competition is that a lower difficulty requires more optimization, so getting a world record score with auto requires absolutely perfect play, which is obviously still a challenge.

I'm not understanding this reasoning at all. One of the effects the ultra rapidfire has is allowing you to make many more mistakes at high-point levels due to not needing to worry about managing the game's adaptive difficulty in going after some of the later captains in the game (major sources of points). If a world record score with rapidfire requires absolutely perfect play then a world record score without rapidfire requires absolutely perfect play and then some. The challenge is of course much greater. Why would a higher difficulty require no less optimization... Instead of more?

Because autofire scores do not get compared to non-autofire scores.

[Kaiser]

And this topic to begin with is as retarded as MARP's no autofire policy for no games, thus, it cannot be taken seriously on the competitive side. Yeah big deal people use autofire, deal with it and move on and don't start retarded debates which you never will win anyway because it's screwed from get go, unless you want to defy entire arcades in japan, then you are still screwed Sinful.

[MathU]

Why do we have to follow entire arcades in Japan?

[Erppo]

this community generally follows a set of rules that involves taking the more difficult approach to these games.

Link to the Futari Ultra scoreboard goes here.

[Jaimers]

It also must mean that total pussy gamers completely rule the world now (and again, I do not exaggerate. These so called gamers are beyond pitiful & only gamers I witness with my own eyes anymore)? Even in Japan it seems? And this really breaks my heart, casue it's only a matter of time now when challenging video games becomes a complete thing of the past. There's already words like "Nintendo hard." These holding hand games of today are just the beginning.

I have no idea what you are trying to get at here. Are you seriously calling the crazy arcade crowd that keeps pushing for insane scores in shmups of all things total pussy gamers?
Is the guy who holds the world record for Darius Gaiden a total pussy gamer?

Why do we have to follow entire arcades in Japan?

not allowing autofire means scores aren't comparable to scores set in JP arcades where it is standard. It has nothing to do with right and wrong and everything to do with set parameters for competitive play. You're free to either submit scores without autofire or even start a new thread limited to non-autofire scores so again, who fucking cares?

[MathU]

Why do we have to compete with Japanese arcade scores?

[Acid King]

Why do we have to compete with Japanese arcade scores?

Is there some nefarious 30hz phantom forcing you to use autofire and preventing you from opening a new score thread?

[Sinful]

Low tech solution: wire the bottom three buttons on your panel all to "shot" and roll your three fingers across them to achive a very fast rate...then you can 1CC it and claim you did it without autofire.

I have my own auto fire technique that gets me above 5 delay, but the point here is against the inhuman 1 delay/30Hz. Big difference between what's possible by mere mortals and that cheat code or hacks.

You'll get over it, and become a better shmuping man once you put things like insane auto fire rates behind you, too. You'll see, and you'll thank me.

LOL. I spent the longest time without autofire. I got substantially better after I embraced autofire. Even on games where I don't use autofire. So yeah. I'm also pretty sure I'm better than you. *slaps with glove*

[retardation removed for brevity]

You're really dumb, you know that?

You even read the topic you post in? (I admit I sometimes skim through or only read title). I do mention I'm not that skilled, yata, yata, and even use auto fire. Just not the 1 delay "cheat" kind. I'm good with 5 or 6 mere mortals standard. And for this game, default seem fine for most of the game too. This is the point of the thread. Hope these few words help you get the message.

I think the reason it drives certain people nuts though is that this community generally follows a set of rules that involves taking the more difficult approach to these games.

Yes, but don't forget other reasons too. This codes infamy is spreading like crazy and creating a false belief that this game can only be beat with the code & that's it's a shameless quarter mucher. ie. Darius Gaiden on Racketboy's Saturn shmup listing by this forums own Bullet Magnet;

it’s also as shameless a quarter muncher as you’re likely to encounter, with a rank system that’s frustratingly eager to leave you high and dry (it never lightens up once raised, no matter how many times you die/power down), certain bullet patterns that are nearly impossible to get through without a bomb or shield, and boss fights that take an eternity to end, even when tackled with a pumped-up autofire cheat (which most “serious” shmuppers refuse to go without when playing this).

People reading this will no doubt start playing this game with auto fire & no second guessing it. Especially with that "serious shmupers" remark added in. I almost did, if it wasn't for Edwards 1cc blog telling me a different story. So yeah. This issue really needs to get cleared up. Everyone looks up to poeple here as insanely skilled "serious" shmupers, and they allow what clearly broken rules like this to run rampant?



*Reading rest of thread* Wow, no matter how much I say it, people don't get the difference between an inhumanly possible fire rate and a possible one. This topic is going nowhere if people can't even figure this out out. Serious shmupers my ass. Plus. I'm just repeating the same stuff over and over only to fall on deaf ears over and over. So with this realization, I'm gonna bail on this topic. It's clearly never gonna be cleared up.

[trap15]

hurrrrrr

Why do we have to compete with Japanese arcade scores?

Because we uh... want to? What the fuck kind of question is that.

[Kollision]

Darius Gaiden on Racketboy's Saturn shmup listing by this forums own Bullet Magnet;

(...) with a rank system that’s frustratingly eager to leave you high and dry (it never lightens up once raised, no matter how many times you die/power down), certain bullet patterns that are nearly impossible to get through without a bomb or shield, and boss fights that take an eternity to end (...)

put Battle Garegga there instead of Darius Gaiden.

[DocHauser]

Why do we have to compete with Japanese arcade scores?

Who should we compete with? Twin Galaxies? Actually, that might be easier...

(I tried going to TG to see what their high score for Darius Gaiden is, but the site is down right now.)

[ACSeraph]

Yes, but don't forget other reasons too. This codes infamy is spreading like crazy and creating a false belief that this game can only be beat with the code & that's it's a shameless quarter mucher.

Actually that doesn't seem to be the message I'm getting from this thread, you should go back and read it more carefully.

Seems to me that what everyone is saying is that the autofire is standard for Japanese arcade scoring, and Japanese scoring is traditionally what we play against. This may in fact dumb down the game depending on your preferences, but it doesn't change the fact that in order to compete with the Japanese standard using autofire is a must.

As I mentioned earlier, without autofire it's a completely different game which we are free to compete in by making a separate scoreboard for it. The entire problem here is that the people who view the non-autofire game as superior are frustrated that not only is the arguably more shallow autofire version the standard, but that as a result of this most players don't even consider trying the game without it. This is a bit unfortunate.

However, sitting in this thread calling people pussies for simply following the Japanese score standard is not cool. I think if we really want to get Darius Gaiden auto-off recognized as a deep game worth pursuing regardless of it not being standard we are going to have to do better than just claiming in a troll thread that "auto breaks the game".

Instead our efforts should be focused on completing a thorough ST that can help people learn this difficult game without autofire, along with detailed explanation of the auto-off scoring systems. We also need to make some high level videos that don"t use auto for reference. Then we make a highscore thread for it, and us "bark chewing manly men" get in there and keep the competition raging to attract newcomers. Seems a lot more productive to me than what's going on in this thread.

Your Darius Love is misguided. Organize community service, not a crusade.

[Ed Oscuro]

Your Darius Love is misguided. Organize community service, not a crusade.

This in particular (the rest is good stuff too).

About "autofire yea/nay," there are only a few handfuls of Shmups Forums users who really have tried to compete with the top-level Japanese scores, and were competitive. This was voluntary; it's mainly what you want to do. It isn't a mistake that in our forum's high score threads, there can be rules from the thread maintainer about autofire, and also a field for noting if autofire was used. It's also possible (I think some threads may even do it) to segregate scores based on autofire use. To view this as other people trying to force you into a system you don't want to use is misguided - if you want to compete with the Japanese scores that have AF, it comes with the territory that you will want to adopt autofire; it comes along with all the other peculiarities of playing that way. Sure, it'd be nice if there was a system maintaining scores where autofire didn't alter the gameplay, but there isn't one, and if you want that to change it's up to players who want this to convince people to go along. But in practice it's not hard to do here.

TG I think is sympathetic when they try to adopt rules that allows games to be played in a "fun" way, i.e. when they put down rules against milking, but I don't think they typically implement them very well. But when your goal is a high score then it's really up to the designer to make sure the game is fun to play given different ways of playing. And, as we saw, score maintainers in Japan also had a sentiment against autofire in Darius Gaiden when it dramatically altered play.

[MathU]

Because we uh... want to? What the fuck kind of question is that.

But why do you want to? Are you a Japanese arcade-goer with fellow Japanese arcade-going friends?

Who should we compete with?

Uh, each other?

[CStarFlare]

Because the Japanese standards for score attack are well established and provide all players with a way to measure themselves against the best. The score attack parameters set by Japanese arcades predate anything this forum has put forth and are kind of a part of the game's established culture, which is why a lot of people prefer to to stick with them instead trying do it better. It's why Full Auto is allowed on DDP, despite not being full default, or why people tend to play the Japanese board revision even though it's not necessarily the superior version or easiest to find.

I also find that having real, consistent standards to defer to just makes everything a little easier.

(From a purist standpoint I obviously understand the other side of the coin. People deride Twin Galaxies for having special rules like "increase the bomb stock to 5" but there's a certain amount of cop-out involved in "autofire is fair play because non-auto is bad game design")

[Drake]

Because we uh... want to? What the fuck kind of question is that.

But why do you want to? Are you a Japanese arcade-goer with fellow Japanese arcade-going friends?

yes

[MathU]

But this forum isn't a Japanese arcade.