I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

[yorgje]

I'm sure they are using it as a generic anime picture.

2hu is my favorite anime

[KAI]

2hu is your favorite non-copyrighted anime.

[MrOldSchoolCool]

Many of these friends never graduated into playing other games in the genre, b/c the aspect they appreciate - the polarity switching/save yourself from half the stuff on the screen - was unique to Ikaruga for a long time (absent a few doujin pc titles that were inspired by Ikaruga, such as rRootage.

Ikaruga's bullet polarity thing was not new or unique. It's less fleshed out and harder to do during a panic, but Dimahoo was already doing it a year before Ikaruga came out. I wouldn't be surprised if Hiroshi Iuchi played Dimahoo and thought about what more could be done with the idea.

It irks me when people try to dismiss something's innovation by bringing up some half-baked example that preceded it. It's not about being the first to do something, it's about being the first to do it well. There are countless examples of this.

Sandbox Games: GTA
3D platformers: Super Mario 64
Many other games and things outside of gaming as well.

Inspiration drives innovation, and you cannot discredit something entirely because it borrowed ideas. It's almost inevitable to borrow some ideas, really. Not to mention, if Ikaruga came out a year after, it's possible that the idea's conception took place before the release of Dimahoo.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah, Touhou is very well known, but is it actually bringing in shmup players for other games? I'm not seeing it, and when I do, it's the... er, questionable members we get on a frequent basis that post a few times, scoff at Fire Shark, then disappear back into the abyss of the internet in search for more doujin.

Well, like I said niche genres will always be niche and for niche players.

It's the same with fighting games. You can reach out to players who aren't into the genre, but they aren't going to stay until they "get it", which is ultimately something that's up to them and not the game.

The most you can hope for imo is that the game in question raises general public opinion/awareness, so that people can say "I don't play those games but it looks like a good genre".

[Plasmo]

yes, could be right

[MathU]

It irks me when people try to dismiss something's innovation by bringing up some half-baked example that preceded it.

I wasn't dismissing anything, Iuchi clearly took the idea further with Ikaruga. I was simply pointing out that Ikaruga's polarity mechanic was not unique when it came out. And Dimahoo's concept of polarity is not half-baked. It has every element of it that Ikaruga has: when you change colors to the same as enemy projectiles they can't kill you, when you shoot at an opposing polarity to enemies you do more damage, when your colors are the same you do less damage. The main differences are that Ikaruga has more polarized enemy bullets and you can change your polarity instantly, while Dimahoo weaves in more standard manic action along with its polarized projectiles. Hell, I've seen people unaware of the release dates for the two games claim that Dimahoo was just ripping off Ikaruga.

[evil_ash_xero]

Touhou brings in the loli lovers. So, that's a minus.

[Oniros]

I'm sorry, but saying that Touhou is more popular than Ikaruga is laughable. Ikaruga is a game that due to its praise, every Gamecube owner at least heard about once. In subsequent years, gaming media referred to it as the golden standard of shmups, there are many better games out there but places like IGN and Gamespot have a habit of doing so. Later, with the XBLA worldwide (very important thing) release, probably even more games were introduced to it casually. Now that the game is the first high-profile shmup hitting Steam the same scenario will play out again. In the end it narrows down to how accessible the game is, not just gameplay-wise but also on how easy it is to own one way or another (it even has an Android version ffs).

Touhou, Cave, G. Rev whatever shmups are niche. Super niche. Places like 4chan might have sung its praises out loud but regardless, shmups with an anime art direction are almost instantly dismissed as "that anime crap" by the regular gamer. It's more likely someone will find cool to play Gradius or R-Type due to their "retro appeal" than Shikigami no Shiro or Mamorukun. The excessive moe that today's shmups have may have helped them to stay relevant in Japan, but in the process alienated western fans even more. No matter how engaging the game's mechanics are or how fun the gameplay is, "anime games" are all the same in the eyes of your Battlefield/Skyrim/TF2/FIFA/SFIV-playing dude and they will never give them a chance.

Ikagura's appeal resonates with retro shmups. A badass pilot takes on a whole army by him/herself, flying a bitching ship in a futuristic setting (with an awesome OST in the background). He/She fights massive bosses and saves the day at the end of the game. The game is truly timeless in that sense and is probably what makes it so special and appealing to gamers of all ages, sexes, and ethnicities.

[Squire Grooktook]

Touhou, Cave, G. Rev whatever shmups are niche. Super niche. Places like 4chan might have sung its praises out loud but regardless, shmups with an anime art direction are almost instantly dismissed as "that anime crap" by the regular gamer. It's more likely someone will find cool to play Gradius or R-Type due to their "retro appeal" than Shikigami no Shiro or Mamorukun. The excessive moe that today's shmups have may have helped them to stay relevant in Japan, but in the process alienated western fans even more. No matter how engaging the game's mechanics are or how fun the gameplay is, "anime games" are all the same in the eyes of your Battlefield/Skyrim/TF2/FIFA/SFIV-playing dude and they will never give them a chance.

I'm sorry but I really can't buy this. The "bro gamer army" isn't playing Touhou, but they sure as fuck aren't playing Ikaruga either. Maybe they've heard of it once, but that's about it, and the same can be said of Touhou.

Not to mention it cannot be overstated how saturated the internet is with Touhou fanworks. It is impossible to wander through Youtube without coming across a Touhou video sooner or later. It is impossible to do a google image search without running into Touhou fan art sooner or later. It is impossible to browse any kind of site like Tv Tropes and not end up at a Touhou page sooner or later.

Of all my non shmup fan friends, about the same number of people have heard Ikaruga and Touhou more or less (actually SLIGHTLY more for Touhou for the anime fans). But way, way, way more of them have actually played Touhou due to the ease of pirating it.

[Oniros]

I'm sorry but I really can't buy this. The "bro gamer army" isn't playing Touhou, but they sure as fuck aren't playing Ikaruga either. Maybe they've heard of it once, but that's about it, and the same can be said of Touhou.

True that they aren't playing Ikaruga, but Touhou ain't even remotely close in terms of mainstream awareness to it. You can easily find articles citing Ikaruga in most gaming "journalism" websites but I've never have come across a single Touhou reference.

Not to mention it cannot be overstated how saturated the internet is with Touhou fanworks. It is impossible to wander through Youtube without coming across a Touhou video sooner or later. It is impossible to do a google image search without running into Touhou fan art sooner or later. It is impossible to browse any kind of site like Tv Tropes and not end up at a Touhou page sooner or later.

Again, super hyperbolic. I've never heard of it until I came to these forums. I didn't even saw it mentioned in NeoGAF where fans of the most obscure games seem to hang out regularly.

Of all my non shmup fan friends, about the same number of people have heard Ikaruga and Touhou more or less (actually SLIGHTLY more for Touhou for the anime fans). But way, way, way more of them have actually played Touhou due to the ease of pirating it.

Probably it is easy to pirate, but you mention that people who may dig anime are more drawn to Touhou. The typical dudebro doesn't like anime, and what Ikaruga does wonderfully is have a more wider appeal due to its style.

[Squire Grooktook]

Again, super hyperbolic. I've never heard of it until I came to these forums. I didn't even saw it mentioned in NeoGAF where fans of the most obscure games seem to hang out regularly.

I dunno about you, but I learned about Touhou before any other bullet hell shooter. I came across it at random like 7 years ago browsing random gaming related videos and channels on Youtube. And it's certainly become more saturated since than.

As for gaming journalism hits, it really depends on where you go. Only game magazine I was ever subscribed to was EGM, and they didn't make a particularly big deal about Ikaruga. I don't read IGN or any of those, never did, so I can't say I ever heard much about Ikaruga until coming to places like this.

Probably it is easy to pirate, but you mention that people who may dig anime are more drawn to Touhou. The typical dudebro doesn't like anime, and what Ikaruga does wonderfully is have a more wider appeal due to its style.

But again, the problem is that the dudebro does not play anything but *INSERT OVER-RATED GAME HERE*. There was even a big hoopla recently when one of the devs for Call of Duty (I think) came out and said he did not consider a lot of the fanbase to be "real gamers" because they didn't have interest in any other type of game.

Also let's not forget that Touhou, the REAL Touhou, isn't even that anime. It's got cutesie super deformed characters, but than so did like every super nintendo game. It's the fanworks that really play up the "moe" and other such steriotypical anime stuff.

[Bananamatic]

the "moeshit haters" are just a really vocal minority (of mostly old men that only play 80s kusoge)
hell it's not even moeshit, touhou has ugly art with no voice acting and all the voices in other shmups can be turned off
you'd have to REALLY hate anime to not play a shmup because of that

Again, super hyperbolic. I've never heard of it until I came to these forums. I didn't even saw it mentioned in NeoGAF where fans of the most obscure games seem to hang out regularly.

And I've never heard of Ikaruga until a long time after I started playing Touhou

The typical dudebro doesn't like anime, and what Ikaruga does wonderfully is have a more wider appeal due to its style.

The typical dudebro doesn't need more than his 5 popular franchises that are social and can be instantly played without sucking anytime he isn't hunting for pussy or showering in Jägermeister

shmups just have zero appeal period, most people on this forum aren't even into shmups all that much

[Squire Grooktook]

I doubt Touhou would be as huge if it wasn't anime also.

Honestly, the anime crowd (in all its hugeness) is probably just as big a group (?) as the super stereotypical Cod fan. And it seems that Touhou has made almost everyone into anime aware of its existence, even those who don't even play games. That's a pretty big accomplishment honestly.

[MrOldSchoolCool]

It irks me when people try to dismiss something's innovation by bringing up some half-baked example that preceded it.

I wasn't dismissing anything, Iuchi clearly took the idea further with Ikaruga. I was simply pointing out that Ikaruga's polarity mechanic was not unique when it came out. And Dimahoo's concept of polarity is not half-baked. It has every element of it that Ikaruga has: when you change colors to the same as enemy projectiles they can't kill you, when you shoot at an opposing polarity to enemies you do more damage, when your colors are the same you do less damage. The main differences are that Ikaruga has more polarized enemy bullets and you can change your polarity instantly, while Dimahoo weaves in more standard manic action along with its polarized projectiles. Hell, I've seen people unaware of the release dates for the two games claim that Dimahoo was just ripping off Ikaruga.

My bad. I misinterpreted you.

[MrOldSchoolCool]

This topic was never meant to be about Touhou. Just the Treasure games in and of themselves. They can each have merits without diminishing each others, so let's stop making it a "Versus" type of thing.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Sandbox Games: GTA

I don't know if any person on Earth plays Elite or Frontier seriously anymore, but sheer number of ports indicates quite a number of people found the games well made for their time.

[Sinful]

What? You think so? I think everybody out there that praise the hell out of these games of just assuming it's a great game because it's Treasure, they can't do no wrong (at least their past games), and the first few min with the game shows that Treasure quality that always says "Wow, this game really is creative and pulls new ground like never before" or something along them lines. ie. Gradius V feels like a massive blockbuster spectictle every minute of the way through. I get that feeling every time I quickly tried some of their other games, like Dynamite Heady.

Just because they raise the attention to the genre by word of mouth, I don't think these two shmups of theirs are good beginner shmups. Silvergun forces you to learn to score ASAP (unless you play console mode, I guess? But how would you know that? People just pick up and play usually. Arcade mode, that it ... Wait, that's what I did too ) & Ikuraga's polarity thing is way too hard to grasp on for a beginner. I know both these games are totally over my head for the momment still + for some reason I really have a massively though time getting into any Treasure game. ie. Gradius series are my fave shmups & I have yet to get into Gradius V. The only one left too, as I even got into the MSX games. Dont ask me to explain it. I know they'll click with me eventually? To the point that they may even be my fave, maybe? I hated Gradius the most at first starting out with shmups after all. But until these two grow on me, all these other shmups are grabbing my attention first. (Oh, and their too much puzzle elements mixed into the shmuping action, like Ikuaraga level 2, are real turnoff to me at the moment, as I dread replaying those parts. Since it seems so linear after you figure out a route)


Then there is the fact that the media labels Ikuraga as the hardest shmup ever, along with that infamous one person playing alone with both arcade sticks video. Think these constant reminder of it being the hardest shmup is doing plenty of good getting newbs to join the shmup genre too?

[Xyga]

I think the Mame + Dodonpachi combo have done a lot for the genre.

[Special World]

I think the Mame + Dodonpachi combo have done a lot for the genre.

Got me to order a PS2 bootdisc, which then got me to order every single game Cave and Qute and Moss released for 360.

But then again, before that it was actually the Wii of all things that got me back into shooters with Blazing Lazers and Gate of Thunder, which then led me to get into more Dreamcast shooters, which then led me to get a PS2 bootdisc...

[Teufel_in_Blau]

Again, super hyperbolic. I've never heard of it until I came to these forums. I didn't even saw it mentioned in NeoGAF where fans of the most obscure games seem to hang out regularly.

You need a workplace adresse to get an account at Neogaf. Ask the guys at /jp/ what they do for their living, than think for 5 seconds and you have your answer.

[Mortificator]

I think everybody out there that praise the hell out of these games of just assuming it's a great game because it's Treasure

Including Cave? In an interview GP translated, Ikeda said "I’m never going to be a genius that can make a game like Ikaruga."

[ciox]

I think everybody out there that praise the hell out of these games of just assuming it's a great game because it's Treasure

Including Cave? In an interview GP translated, Ikeda said "I’m never going to be a genius that can make a game like Ikaruga."

Japanese players not connected to the western press also have nothing but praise for the game, like in this superplayer interview http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/45billing/ikaruga.html
Won't stop people from saying that bullshit though, basically all because of this
 

[ACSeraph]

Just for me personally, Ikaruga hype reintroduced me to the genre.

Basically I played a lot of shmups as a kid, particularly 1942, Raiden, and some PC game called Raptor. I never really lost interest in them, but the genre got so obscure in the US around the PS1 era that I wasn't actually aware shmups were still a thing. So, basically when Ikaruga got hyped by all the major US gaming media I became aware that Japan was not only still producing these games, but they had evolved into something way crazier than they had been before.

Now I agree that a lot of people probly played Ikaruga and stopped there, enjoying it for the oddity that it was. Let's not forget that at the time even if you wanted more there weren't really any other well known shooters available in the US (unless you knew where to look which most people didn't). SO basically you play it, think hmm that was cool, and then just move along assuming all other such games will never leave Japan.

In my case, I found Ikaruga beautiful at the time, but not particularly engaging. It wasn't the kind of game that would suck me back into the genre for sure, and I still don't find it particularly great. But I ended up going out of my way to find other stuff like Triggerheart Exelica and that is what really pulled me back into the genre. Basically Ikaruga reminded me that shmups were a thing, and then Exelica, being much more traditional than Ikaruga, got me to stick around. But without Ikaruga I likely would have never known to search for it.

I think having the kind of interests many of us have on this forum we get this false impression that everyone knows 2hu, but actually I think most people who have encountered never realized what it was, they just dismissed it as random anime. Even me with my interest in shmups didn't know much about it before becoming more active on this forum and meeting a few friends here in Japan who were into it. I think basically Ikaruga did a lot for mainstream genre awareness, where tohou possibly did more to bring in a new generation of actual players.

[ACSeraph]

srry double post

[CStarFlare]

Japanese players not connected to the western press also have nothing but praise for the game, like in this superplayer interview http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/45billing/ikaruga.html

To be fair, the players featured on the superplay DVD are not necessarily an accurate sample of the Japanese community as a whole.

[AntiFritz]

I think everybody out there that praise the hell out of these games of just assuming it's a great game because it's Treasure

Including Cave? In an interview GP translated, Ikeda said "I’m never going to be a genius that can make a game like Ikaruga."

This could easily be a case of ikeda thinking he's not as good as he really is though.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think everybody out there that praise the hell out of these games of just assuming it's a great game because it's Treasure

Including Cave? In an interview GP translated, Ikeda said "I’m never going to be a genius that can make a game like Ikaruga."

This could easily be a case of ikeda thinking he's not as good as he really is though.

Or that he meant that he couldn't make a game with the same kind of mass market appeal that Ikaruga did.

Kind of reminds me of Shigeru Miyamoto saying he wish he had been clever enough to invent the Rubiks Cube.

[ZacharyB]

Without Ikaruga, less people would know about shmups than they do today.

...Although I think that the "HARDEST VIDEO GAME BOSS EVER!" video is a close contender on that front.

[chum]

Yeah, Touhou is very well known, but is it actually bringing in shmup players for other games? I'm not seeing it

I searched for your posts in the high score section: zero results. Too good, you complain about us and you don't even appear to play the genre yourself. You have over 3000 posts. Yeah, I know, you don't necessarily have to post in there, but tons of Touhou players/people that started with Touhou and then found their way here do post there and actually have good scores for some of the most popular games on this site. Look at the high score sections for these:

Gunbird 2
Strikers 1999
Batsugun Special
DOJ Black Label

For examples.

Then you proceed to complain about us - talk about self-righteous delusions. Hiding from the truth. It's embarrassing and people's persistent attempts to seclude Touhou from "real shmups" is as well. I keep coming back here, hoping that maybe people will be less close-minded eventually... hasn't occured yet.

[drauch]

Hahahahaha, ouch! Ya got me! Nice detective work, Touhou P.I.. I've got no beef with the Touhou games, and since you're obviously a freak, feel free to pilfer through all 3000+ of my posts and find me talk about how I hate the games, because it doesn't exist. I know you're still upset with the loss of one of your brethren, so I won't take this to heart. I'm not denying Touhou has brought in plenty of players that dig Psikyo games, because I'm sure they have--same with Ikaruga. Do most of those players continue playing shmups? I doubt it. But please, don't take offense!

The typical fans, though... We get it all the time, and it's just like I said. 4chan parade. You obviously like to lump yourself into the category and take personal offense on your own accord, so be it.

I don't think people hate the Touhou games as much as you think. I think you're missing the big picture here.