Hardest games (again!)

[Chaos Phoenixma]

which gets into buffing AI.

buff wears off, AI uses full party buff to buff again instead of ignoring it. buff then wears off on the party members because you can't stack or renew the buff duration. AI then uses the buff again next turn and the buff timers are off between the party members causing more fail in buffing.

The AI also has their own stock of items at least in FES and Vanilla(I'm not sure if P4 AI which P3P has uses items), so you could have a bunch of status cure items, but the AI can't use them.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It's really idiotic that they didn't give you some degree of AI control. Stuff like the 'Tales of' series lets you control exactly what spells the AI should be using or ignoring, their positioning in battle, who they attack, what they prioritize, etc. The later games even let you setup AI use of items so you can have them only use revive/status cures, or if need be spam even your precious HP healing items. You even get a chance to tell them to cancel the item use if they try to use one and you don't want them to for some reason. If you're forced to control only one character and everyone else under AI, at least give the player some decent AI setup options...

P3 gives you a few basic strategy settings, but nothing really useful if I remember.

[iconoclast]

If you want a recent game to add to the list, I'd say Catherine (on Hard mode and the Babel stages), Hard Corps: Uprising (Arcade mode), and Bangai-O HD (Extreme & Puzzle stages) are harder than Dark Souls or Super Meat Boy.

Dark Souls, being an RPG with online co-op, has about a million ways to trivialize almost everything in the game.
Super Meat Boy has some stages that can be hard to complete, but all it takes a little bit of persistence because you have infinite lives and the stages are about 20 seconds long.
Catherine's story mode can be cheesed through if you pause and follow a guide, but that won't work in the Tower of Babel because each stage has random patterns.
Hard Corps: Uprising is a tricky one, since it's a challenging game, but it throws tons of resources at you. The most egregious example being the 24 1ups you can pick up throughout the game. How can you not beat it?
Bangai-O has lots of stages, many of which are short and easy, but the ones you unlock after completing the main campaign can be pretty challenging (and they have awesome level design). This game gets overlooked a lot, so I think it's worth a mention.

All that being said, I still think Ninja Gaiden II + Mission Mode on Path of the Master Ninja is by far the hardest mainstream game this gen.

[spadgy]

Cheers Iconoclast - very helpful!

[GaijinPunch]

Every stage must be no-missed up until its bossfight. Would you have ever endured going for 1cc, even if the scoring rewarded it?

No. Not at that difficulty level.

Super Monkey Ball also needs to be no-missed if you want to see the bonus stages.

Never played it.

If - having cleared Shinobi - you keep your savestate, Kunoichi is playable as Shinobi characters, using their distinctive mechanics.
I believe what makes Kunoichi easier to complete are mid-stage checkpoints (whereas Shinobi only has them before bossfights).

I believe you can play as two characters from Shinobi, but my memory is foggy. Joe Musashi is one. I think the main characters from Shinobi is the other.. and you have to clear Kunoichi first to unlock these guys.

[spadgy]

If - having cleared Shinobi - you keep your savestate, Kunoichi is playable as Shinobi characters, using their distinctive mechanics.
I believe what makes Kunoichi easier to complete are mid-stage checkpoints (whereas Shinobi only has them before bossfights).

I believe you can play as two characters from Shinobi, but my memory is foggy. Joe Musashi is one. I think the main characters from Shinobi is the other.. and you have to clear Kunoichi first to unlock these guys.

Gaijin Punches? Could one of you confirm which Shinobi game you're discussing?

Oh - and if all of you want to berate me, he's my previous '6 of the bests' for The Observer (on The Guardian website as they are sister publications). There's a new one up tomorrow too, as the newspaper is out then too:

6 of the best game romances

6 of the best sequels

EDIT: And the reason it's 6? Well, apparently atypical numbers work best to tract the reader's eye. A top 11 will always be more widely read than a top 10, I'm told. Same for a top 9, to 32, top 6.

[Sarethums]

for me ikaruga and anything that requires pick ups like rtype and gradius

[BIL]

I'll pipe up for GP & GP and say it's the 2002 PS2 Shinobi and its sequel Kunoichi aka Nightshade being discussed. ^_~

I wouldn't consider it hardest of all time material, really. I've cleared out Super difficulty with all S ranks and coins and found it about even with stuff like DMC1 and NG Black's hardest modes. The frequent risk of instant death by pit and lack of in-stage checkpoints do give it an extra frustration factor, but its combat is nowhere near as dangerous so it evens out.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Could one of you confirm which Shinobi game you're discussing?

Surely the PS2 2002 Shinobi and its PS2 Sequel Kunoichi (a.k.a. Nightshade). PAL Shinobi may not have the highest difficulty mode, but it's got 60 Hz mode (Japanese voices even) and last but not least, the most incredible Youtube videos of either are speedruns where players don't even kill all enemies, that I doubt would be doable on higher difficulty settings, regardless of the region.
The game deserves to be remembered for so much more than difficulty, though. If you want challenging games of the era, Super Monkey Ball (1st) and SMB Jr. are at least as good picks.

[Pretas]

Why Super Meat Boy is a poor example of video game difficulty.

[Mortificator]

I put up with Kunoichi just so I could unlock Hotsuma. Shinobi was so cool, playing as the same guy should be at least a little fun, right?

With Kunoichi's game mechanics stapled to his ass and running through stages that seem to be constructed from feces, not even a little.

[spadgy]

Why Super Meat Boy is a poor example of video game difficulty.

That really is an interesting read, but I'm not sure I absolutely buy the 'infinite goes means it can't be difficult' argument (though I see its merits).

The author should try a few of the more technical skateboarding tricks. I'll give him infinite goes too!

[Randorama]

@Spadgy:

If you are Will Freeman (I guess), then you have already cited DoDonPachi, so you can add one more shmup from Cave that has been released region-free or here in Europe, of the official "though as nails" list.

In that case, do link yourself to your previous article, for increase traffic count, and mention that "you are trying to continue a certain dialogue with the readers that you previously established". Nobody will notice the shameless self-promotion (call it "continuity").

I would also add the combatribes, as it had a wide release, back in the day. It was a very common title from "the makers of Double Dragon" that made hordes of people frustrated.

For the rest, Dark Souls should generate a buzz. It is the kind of game that can be mentioned at work (...or at the gym), and generate endless discussions on difficulty. I still have to meet a single person who does not find the difficulty incredibly hard, although most agree that it can be cracked down with some careful planning. A nice comment from a colleague: "it feels like one of those '80s arcade games: one moment of distraction and it obliterates you".

...so, you take my list and add Dark Souls as a seventh game .

@GP: by the way: my uncle (the one who owned an arcade) said that we're wimps, and we can't play for shit. He mentioned that Guevara can be 1-lifed, provided that you learn pixel-perfect ways to handle ambushes, and bosses' attacks. Psycho killer is also crazy though unless you know an exploit for the last two stages or so. I am fairly sure that the MARP site has replays using it.

...and since we are here: what do you think of the two Dark Seal titles from DECO?

[spadgy]

Will Freeman? That's Hugh Grant's character's name in the source book of the film About a Boy, isn't it?

But thanks for those suggestions. Truly helpful.

[GaijinPunch]

@GP: by the way: my uncle (the one who owned an arcade) said that we're wimps, and we can't play for shit. He mentioned that Guevara can be 1-lifed, provided that you learn pixel-perfect ways to handle ambushes, and bosses' attacks.

Yes, I know -- I have a DVD that shows how. Annoying would be a great way to describe it, and not really fun to watch. I couldn't call it a "super play".

...and since we are here: what do you think of the two Dark Seal titles from DECO?

I love DECO... but I admit i've not spent much time w/ these. I think there are 1CC videos available for them though? I'd have to check.

EDIT: Checked. I have the following titled videos.

darkseal.bard.nomiss.avi
darkseal.knight.nomiss.avi
darkseal.ninja.nomiss.avi
darkseal.wizard.nomiss.avi

[BareKnuckleRoo]

That really is an interesting read, but I'm not sure I absolutely buy the 'infinite goes means it can't be difficult' argument (though I see its merits).

The author should try a few of the more technical skateboarding tricks. I'll give him infinite goes too!

Not really an accurate comparison. Learning to execute one specific technique is not the same as having to learn, say, a much longer gymnastics routine or something, and then execute it flawlessly. Giving infinite lives and breaking up the levels into short chunks would be like a shmup having very short levels and a checkpoint system but infinite lives, with a 1CC being possible just by reaching the end no matter how many deaths occur.

In a normal shmup, you only have a limited number of lives/retries to cancel out your mistakes, and you need to go through the entire game without running out in order to 1CC it. Giving the player infinite lives or even continues in which there's no real penalty for a gameover means players generally don't see any motivation for avoiding deaths/gameovers, aside from the ones dedicated enough to go for a no death clear or something. Sure, you can replay shmups an infinite number of goes until you get a 1CC, but to nab that, you need to learn the game which will likely span a good length of time, and isn't just a small 45 second chunk like beating a boss in training mode.

At least on the older Super Mario Bros games (to use the same comparison the article does), the levels get progressively longer and more complicated, and while you can continue as much as you want in SMB3, getting a gameover sends you back to the start of the world with no items saved up. On the later worlds, this is one hell of a rough punishment if you're unprepared.

[Obiwanshinobi]

In time attack kind of games, the shorter times you try to beat, the more challenging they get.
In Kuru Kuru Kururin I make progress in the Adventure mode, but can't seem to top Teacher Hare's time in second challenge.
I could name some other games composed of such micro-challenges so tough I doubt anybody would call them easy.

[Limbrooke]

In Kuru Kuru Kururin I make progress in the Adventure mode, but can't seem to top Teacher Hare's time in second challenge.

Second challenge in Adventure mode, so past training? Grasslands or Ocean? Either way, the game begins to challenge in Adventure around the Cave area and is mostly frustrating to best the top time and not hit the walls. If you don't go for time/perfects, it's not too bad.

Some fair mentions already such as Gunbird 2 although for the shmups forum not many shmups. I'd mention Sinistar and Stargate. Both are playable but can kick your ass in a hurry. R-Type 2 is another game not easily beaten, like many Irem offerings (nod to Image Fight).

Nobody has really mentioned much in racing so I'd say F-Zero GX can be frustrating if you don't put your time in. No easy game. Also, Initial D Special Stage on PS2 was very challenging if you didn't spend a little time on it. I felt it was downgrade from arcade and didn't feel compelled to spend my time there (also no way to play it [no modchip/import system]).

[chum]

Gun.Smoke (Arcade) might deserve a mention?

Also, Ikari Warriors (NES) and Adventures of Lolo 2J (Famicom) are pretty darn brutal. Sutte Hakkun (SFC) too. I don't really know what the hardest platformer I've played is...

[Skykid]

Also, Ikari Warriors (NES)

I mentioned that one too. The only clear I've ever seen of it is the one that holds the Twin Galaxies record, for what it's worth. I have no idea about Japan scores.

[chum]

I spent several hours trying to beat even just the first stage of that game without continuing and I never managed to get past the section right after crashing the copter. That's only like half of the first stage. Also, having seen what the rest of the game looks like... Yikes.

The game is pure terror, and It's sssslllloooowwww terror, at that.

[Skykid]

I spent several hours trying to beat even just the first stage of that game without continuing and I never managed to get past the section right after crashing the copter. That's only like half of the first stage. Also, having seen what the rest of the game looks like... Yikes.

The game is pure terror, and It's sssslllloooowwww terror, at that.

Ha ha, that's the exact point I made it to as well! Pure adrenaline flying a completely broken helicopter licking shots over a swamp that spells certain death if you end up in it. Think I ejected just before it went down, crawled to dry land wildly firing all over the place, and summarily took a bullet in the back from one of several encroaching enemies. Cartridge eject! For me that was as good as a 1cc for that stupid game.

[GaijinPunch]

Also, Ikari Warriors (NES)

I mentioned that one too. The only clear I've ever seen of it is the one that holds the Twin Galaxies record, for what it's worth. I have no idea about Japan scores.

It's painfully long. Is the Twin Galaxies record a 1 credit clear? If so, that's quite impressive.

[Skykid]

Also, Ikari Warriors (NES)

I mentioned that one too. The only clear I've ever seen of it is the one that holds the Twin Galaxies record, for what it's worth. I have no idea about Japan scores.

It's painfully long. Is the Twin Galaxies record a 1 credit clear? If so, that's quite impressive.

Yes, and if I remember correctly, I saw it years ago on YouTube during some Ikari research. Might still be there. And yes, it's eternally long, and slow as hell.

[ancestral-knowledge]

The most difficult game I have played was R-Type 2.

[BIL]

Gun.Smoke (Arcade) might deserve a mention?

Excellent pick. And although it's tough as nails, it's not so much the absolute extent of its difficulty as the bloodthirsty nature of it. It's not bullet curtains or 9000mph sniper shots or treacherous puzzle box terrain that are the danger, it's that every single enemy is hell-bent on killing you, and they will corner and slaughter you if you don't fight like hell. Very personal-feeling shooter action, the antithesis of the "millions of dead popcorn" approach.

With an ultra-macho setting to complement. Brokeback Cowboys in STG HELL

[Obiwanshinobi]

Second challenge in Adventure mode, so past training? Grasslands or Ocean?

Second challenge in the Challenge mode.

[Limbrooke]

Second challenge in Adventure mode, so past training? Grasslands or Ocean?

Second challenge in the Challenge mode.

I'd suggest Challenge mode is easier than Adventure. All the courses are short and can be done quickly. I've star'ed all 10 rounds in Challenge mode but had a lapse in stars from Cave through Cloud Land in Adventure. Star and Ice Land seem to be easier incidently which is odd. Good game all the same.

[GaijinPunch]

I found my Guevara 1CC DVD if you need reference. It's a clear on normal, a clear on very hard, and a famicom version clear.

[Obiwanshinobi]

All the courses are short and can be done quickly.

Isn't it marvelous of a handheld game?