HD PVR + XRGB2+ w/Marty & other SD device oddities

[Skykid]

I know the HD PVR isn't designed to work with SD sources, but I've been fiddling with various configurations for testing purposes (mainly to record some VHS stuff via composite).

Weirdly, the MD via composite is as expected: stuttering and jerky through the eyetv window, but the FM Towns Marty via S-Video is totally smooth.

And I mean that in a live video sense - it's still got input lag of about three seconds or so - but unlike the MD composite setup the image and sound is stable during capture. That's weird: isn't the Marty 240p same as everything else (not 480i, surely?) I wonder if it's to do with the weird aspect ratio/resolution of Splatterhouse and other Ving titles.

Anyway, if I can find a way to split the output into the PVR and into a TV simultaneously, the lag won't matter as long as playback is stable. I'm assuming there must be some kind of splitter box where you can play on the TV at the same time?

I also have an XRGB2+ here and I was wondering if there's any way of sticking it between console and PVR? I assume for 240p sources it has no use, but what about 480i upward? Would it create scanlines on an Xbox 360 and apply them to a recording for instance?

[trap15]

I believe Marty runs in 31kHz for most titles, whereas usual SD sources are 15kHz.

[Skykid]

I believe Marty runs in 31kHz for most titles, whereas usual SD sources are 15kHz.

Ah I see, that's interesting. Is it still 240p though?

I found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBXBF3n3psQ

Fudoh's grand work!

SNES RGB Scart -> Framemeister -> View HD box -> HD PVR

^ I don't know what the View HD box is exactly, but it seems to allow you to split an HD output source to two receivers... so would this work with an XRGB2+, or is there something special about the Framemeister?

EDIT: Another Framemeister vid, using an Elgato capture card?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPpFVJUjh2Y

[SuperDeadite]

FM Towns outputs in 15/24/31 depending on software.
Marty only outputs in 15khz, so software that is 24k and 31k native is dowscaled to 480i.

[Fudoh]

Towns does output 480i for 15khz - at least for most titles. That's why it works out of the box.

Which HD PVR do you have ? Component input only or the newer one with HDMI ? I still have the original one without HDMI.

The View HD is a HDMI splitter with an integrated HDCD stripper, so I assume that maker of the video owns a HDPVR with HDMI input. Otherwise he'd need something like a HDFury to convert to component.

Let me know which HDPVR you have and I tell you how to setup a recording chain.

The main problem about the HDPVR (besides that it doesn't like 240p to start with), is that it's very sensible to non-standard refresh rate. The Framemeister can disable the vsync, so it gets pretty standard timings. The Avermedia recorder doesn't mind. Don't know about the Elgato.

Your XRGB2+ would solve the 240p issue, but of course it's output is VGA only, which you'd have to transcode to component (or convert to HDMI for recording). The question is how the XRGB2+ output looks like with vsync disabled. I'm not sure what it does, since it just wasn't design to run this way.

[Skykid]

Well Fudoh my man, you give me the chain and some ideas and I'll happily document my findings here if possible.

It's an original HD PVR so all component no HDMI.

Interested to know what can be done with the XRGB2+ and potential results.

Thanks for the info on the Towns, didn't realise it was 480i.

[Fudoh]

If you want to try it with a XRGB2+ you need a transcoder from VGA to component, for example an Audio Authority 9A60.

But keep in mind that the results could very well depend on your source system. To make it work 100% you'd need a video processor in between the two which decouples the output refresh rate from the input. Something like a DVDO.

[ruger]

Towns does output 480i for 15khz - at least for most titles. That's why it works out of the box.

You mean Towns Marty right.

A computer Towns boots into 31kHz by default for most of titles - at least most of the titles I have tested
By default I mean that it is possible to switch to 15kHz by selecting low resolution graphics in the game menus.

Do you know how the "softness" switch on the back of the Marty impacts the video?

[SuperDeadite]

Towns does output 480i for 15khz - at least for most titles. That's why it works out of the box.

You mean Towns Marty right.

A computer Towns boots into 31kHz by default for most of titles - at least most of the titles I have tested
By default I mean that it is possible to switch to 15kHz by selecting low resolution graphics in the game menus.

Do you know how the "softness" switch on the back of the Marty impacts the video?

The switch softens the image making it slightly blurry. I think the idea is to make the interlaced video a bit easier on the eyes. For normal Towns machines, output is incredibly varied. Some games such as Turbo Outrun are 15khz only, some are 31khz only, some can be switched. Old Towns machines use 24khz for the BIOS, newer versions used 31khz. Marty = 480i.

[Skykid]

If you want to try it with a XRGB2+ you need a transcoder from VGA to component, for example an Audio Authority 9A60.

But keep in mind that the results could very well depend on your source system. To make it work 100% you'd need a video processor in between the two which decouples the output refresh rate from the input. Something like a DVDO.

Hey Fudoh, thanks for the heads up, I had a feeling there would be something required in the link.

My Q's:

1: Dat Audio Authority is bucks, $129! Any cheap Chinese variants that do the same job? I've heard that a DVD Recorder performs the same job by outputting via Component into the PVR (and then I get a DVD recorder out of the deal too). I'm not sure if there are any results reported about makes and models that are 'guaranteed' to do the job, but I'd rather go for something reliable. Any info?

2: Is a DVDO optimum (any particular model?) and superior to the Audio Authority transcoder?

3: As I understand it, the Framemeister doesn't require this additional transcoder then? It really only needs the HDMI splitter to get the image running on a monitor?

4: How do I get around recording lag, as in, have the image running on the TV and the laptop's EYETV simultaneously?

Thanks!

[Fudoh]

1. With a little patience used AAs shouldn't be more than $50. VGA to component transcoding isn't requested any more. There aren't too many devices out there I could think of. New all of them are rather expensive, but used ones are usually quite cheap, since literally nobody needs them.

1b. A DVD recorder wouldn't work with XRGB, but it would take component and RGB Scart right away and output 480p component for the HD PVR to record. If you don't want your XRGB in the chain, that's a solid and affordable way. I've got a Pioneer DVR, but all of them do similar good jobs. In Europe they usually good RGB Scart inputs, but no component inputs, while in the US it's the other way around.

2. The DVDOs are full blown scalers, which can replace the XRGB or add to it. They add another layer of processing (so more lag). DVDOs in general make very nice capture interfaces, since they take in nearly everything (RGB, Component, VGA from XRGB or Dreamcast, even HDMI) and output in a resolution for your HDPVR (e.g. 720p60). Ian uses a DVDO/HDPVR combo for his videos, for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YL7pi2V2nw&feature=plcp

3. The Framemeister is HDMI out only, so would need a HDMI to component converter (for your HDPVR at least). Costs about $50.

4. You can't. Live encoding units like the HDPVR really can't be used for serious gaming on the PC screen.

[Skykid]

If you don't want your XRGB in the chain

Would you mind explaining to me the benefit? Am I right in thinking the XRGB will offer better quality recordings? (Will the scanlines be visible if turned on?)

The DVDOs are full blown scalers... They add another layer of processing (so more lag).

More lag than if using the XRGB and VGA->Component transcoder? Seeing as I can't split the signal to play on a TV at the same time, if the lag is more with the DVDO than the transcoder I'll probably just go transcoder.

You can't. Live encoding units like the HDPVR really can't be used for serious gaming on the PC screen.

For 240p stuff or all the way up to 1080i?
I was sure I found a YT video where someone had spliced the image onto a TV simultaneously (was for X360 though.)

[Ed Oscuro]

Why do you want to waste your bandwidth and file size on scanlines..? This is a direct recording of the video signal, not a telecine.

[Skykid]

Why do you want to waste your bandwidth and file size on scanlines..? This is a direct recording of the video signal, not a telecine.

I'm just curious what the benefit of having the XRGB is in the chain, rather than just a DVDO for instance.

[Fudoh]

I was sure I found a YT video where someone had spliced the image onto a TV simultaneously (was for X360 though.)

The HDPVR has a component passthrough output where you connect your TV for lagfree gaming. It's just the preview on the PC screen that's delayed.

Why do you want to waste your bandwidth and file size on scanlines..? This is a direct recording of the video signal, not a telecine.

I would not try to record the scanlines, but Youtube's quality is just miles better if you upload a 720 video instead of a 240 or 480p one.

XRGB vs. DVDO: with the XRGB you would record in 480p. With the DVDO in 720p. Also the DVDO guarantees you 100% compatibility, while the XRGB might still give you sync issues, since it's output might not be perfectly unlockable from the source.

[Ed Oscuro]

Skykid mentioned scanlines specifically, so I wasn't saying anything about 240p versus 720p. I agree that 720p looks nicer than trying to make a 240p video fullscreen.

It's probably worth reiterating that YouTube's compression should be more efficient (and have fewer artifacts) if you upload non-scanlined video. There really isn't going to be any advantage to trying to put scanlines in the screen; they just take up those precious few pixels on something that people will have to squint at harder. Not at all like using a 240p progressive CRT display where there's no difficulty seeing what's onscreen.

[Skykid]

XRGB vs. DVDO: with the XRGB you would record in 480p. With the DVDO in 720p. Also the DVDO guarantees you 100% compatibility, while the XRGB might still give you sync issues, since it's output might not be perfectly unlockable from the source.

Perfect, well DVDO it is then. Quality is paramount.

Q's:

1: Is the amount of lag the same as with an XRGB, roughly?

2: The DVDO is it's own VGA->Component transcoder right, no need for the Audio Authority box anymore right?

3: Any particular DVDO model I should go for?

I was sure I found a YT video where someone had spliced the image onto a TV simultaneously (was for X360 though.)

The HDPVR has a component passthrough output where you connect your TV for lagfree gaming. It's just the preview on the PC screen that's delayed.

Right, so I'm struggling to see the chain here. If it's possible to use the component passthrough to connect to the TV and record simultaneously, why would this be a problem with retro stuff with a DVDO in-between?

Thanks once again master F.

[Fudoh]

1: Is the amount of lag the same as with an XRGB, roughly?

XRGB2/2+/3 don't lag. Framemeister has 24ms. DVDOs around 2 frames.

2: The DVDO is it's own VGA->Component transcoder right, no need for the Audio Authority box anymore right?

Yes, DVDOs do output in HDMI, VGA and component.

3: Any particular DVDO model I should go for?

from a connection perspective an iScan VP30 would be a perfect choice. Fair price around 160 EUR. It's not something you can pick up anytime you want though....

Right, so I'm struggling to see the chain here. If it's possible to use the component passthrough to connect to the TV and record simultaneously, why would this be a problem with retro stuff with a DVDO in-between?

You go source > DVDO > HDPVR > (from passthrough output) Display.

This way you get the DVDO delay when playing, but not the HDPVR delay. This requires a HD display to play on.
If you want to play on a 15khz CRT you'd have to split your source's signal before going into the DVDO.

[Lord of Pirates]

If you want to try it with a XRGB2+ you need a transcoder from VGA to component, for example an Audio Authority 9A60.

But keep in mind that the results could very well depend on your source system. To make it work 100% you'd need a video processor in between the two which decouples the output refresh rate from the input. Something like a DVDO.

Kinda off topic but, will the 9A60 accept 15khz if you feed it combined sync?

Keep in mind that the VP30 will not process VGA from a DC (or Hanzo at least), RGB will work fine as long as you feed it combined sync into a component input. It's a fantastic unit other than that, however.

(I think I'm using the right terminology there? It wouldn't play nice unless I ran it through an Extron and used the individual sync output)

[Skykid]

XRGB2/2+/3 don't lag. Framemeister has 24ms. DVDOs around 2 frames.

Great, so I'm stuck with either lag free recording at 240p, or 2 frames of lag but recording at 720. Grah. I suppose 2 frames is pretty imperceptible really, but I know that sort of thing messes me up on shmups.

from a connection perspective an iScan VP30 would be a perfect choice.

They're all rather expensive actually. This is the cheapest I can find, any good?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DVDO-ISCAN-HD ... 53ff61b0f4

This way you get the DVDO delay when playing, but not the HDPVR delay. This requires a HD display to play on.
If you want to play on a 15khz CRT you'd have to split your source's signal before going into the DVDO.

K, so this might sound nuts, but what happens if I use the DVDO outputting to the HDPVR for upscaled recording from 240 to 720p, and then put the XRGB between the DVDO and the TV - will that get rid of the lag?

[Fudoh]

They're all rather expensive actually. This is the cheapest I can find, any good?

For RGB and component sources, yes. It doesn't process VGA sources though.

K, so this might sound nuts, but what happens if I use the DVDO outputting to the HDPVR for upscaled recording from 240 to 720p, and then put the XRGB between the DVDO and the TV - will that get rid of the lag?

what do you think ? That makes about as much sense as those legendary "de-mosaic" boxes for japanese porn.

[Skykid]

That makes about as much sense as those legendary "de-mosaic" boxes for japanese porn.

They exist?

They're all rather expensive actually. This is the cheapest I can find, any good?

For RGB and component source, yes. It doesn't process VGA sources though.[/quote]

Well not many retro consoles I can think of output in VGA except the Dreamcast, and that can also be done with RGB. All the latest stuff won't require transcoding anyways.

Cool, I think that wraps up the info, this thread is now a really handy reference for me, thanks Fudoh!

All I need to know now is where to find a de-mosaic box for Japanese porn.