Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

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Sinful
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Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by Sinful »

What do I mean? Well;

- folks constantly complaining about large hitboxes (even when they aren't that big), not enough bullets on screen, mnetions of "too old school for me" (which basically included all 16-Bit console games), etc.

- I usually read that the Raizing guy working at CAVE making them Raizing type games (Ibara, Pink Sweets, Muchi Pork) aren't being as, or near as, successful as CAVE style offerings (there also hasn't been any more Raizing type games in awhile from him, which where a year by year release. Three strikes & he's out maybe?). And that when these games get re-released and revised to be more "CAVE like", I'm assuming they all of a sudden become more popular, treasured, and in demand? Two bad both styles can't co-exist.

- Doujin shmups seem to be all heavily inspired by CAVE.

- When Konami wanted the next Gradius V to be a more modern shooter, they went to Treasure & they made it into a bullet hell, complete with one tiny pixel or so hit-box.



For me it's sad to see variety or certain styles in gaming die. I also so far assume Raizing may of got it more right in the direction STGs should of gone instead? But I won't know for sure until I get really good at both (pretty much suck big time now, so just crazy assumptions). So here's to keeping an open mind till then. But one other thing I want to know is, what if I'm wrong? What if CAVE is the true pinnicle of STG evolution and I finally see this? Then I'll be in the same boat where I'll have a though time going to anything else prior and/or non-CAVE. And in the process losing out on a tons of shmups to play. :cry: In which case maybe I should ease off in my getting the hang of CAVE games too fast, no?
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friedrich
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by friedrich »

Gradius V is a bullet hell shooter? lol

And yes, "certain styles in gaming" as you call it, die. That's just the way it is and there is no reason to be sad about it.

Personally, I can still enjoy a game like R-Type or the older Gradius games just fine, even though I am one of those people that think Cave games are the pinnacle of the genre.
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Hagane
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by Hagane »

Cave games aren't the pinnacle of the genre, that notion comes mostly from loud fanboys. They just survived more because they made compromises to reach a wider audience. There are many superb games from other companies and playing Cave titles shouldn't stop you from enjoying them.
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by SuperSoaker360 »

Just play the damn game you want.
Sinful wrote:When Konami wanted the next Gradius V to be a more modern shooter, they went to Treasure & they made it into a bullet hell, complete with one tiny pixel or so hit-box.
:?:
Sinful wrote:folks constantly complaining about large hitboxes (even when they aren't that big), not enough bullets on screen, mnetions of "too old school for me" (which basically included all 16-Bit console games), etc.
This reminds me of CAVE Hitbox Syndrome in where you start thinking that in every bullet-hell STG the bullets have a smaller hitbox than what their sprite is. In truth though, not very many people complain about large hitboxes (unless the hitbox itself is inaccurate in respect to the sprite of the bullet). It is indeed a style of CAVE.
Sinful wrote:Doujin shmups seem to be all heavily inspired by CAVE.
This is a bit of a stretch. I think you're only seeing the surface here. CAVE is not the only defining company for STGs.
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by shmuppyLove »

Go play Darius Gaiden 8)
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by Bananamatic »

if it ain't bullet hell it ain't SHIT
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by BIL »

Sinful wrote:- Doujin shmups seem to be all heavily inspired by CAVE.
Go play Kamui, heavily inspired by Taito and Raizing.
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by Formless God »

Bananamatic wrote:if it ain't bullet hell it ain't SHIT
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by Zengeku3 »

Cave is not necessarily the pinnacle of shmup evolution, though the bullethell subgenre certainly is.
You are an idiot if you don't agree, agreeing won't stop you from being an idiot etc etc. 8)

If you don't like bullethell, it's cause' they are too hardcore for you.
If you don't like old-school shmups, it's cause' they are too primitive for you.

*Insert massive amounts of w's here.*
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by KAI »

Cave is the pinnacle of shmup music and oversexualized lolis, the rest is subjective.
Last edited by KAI on Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vyxx
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by Vyxx »

Battle Garegga 2 AKA Ibara is basically as close to shmup perfection as you can get.

I feel though I've actually grown to love old school Toaplan shmups the most over the recent years, and I somewhat started with cave.
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by Pteriforever »

It's natural for game design to progress over time, I suppose. I don't really see a problem; people can play whatever games suit them.
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friedrich
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by friedrich »

KAI wrote:Cave is the pinnacle of shmup music and oversexualized lolis, the rest is subjective.
Contrary to your statement, which is objective, I guess?
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by hail good sir »

I think gus is the only one to master anything and last I read him type something he still wouldn't stop playing futari ultra... so I guess there really is no going back. As for the content of the post I think you're otherthinking something that is too niche to be analyzed with any logic. I don't think people here really care they just like what they like and "normal" gamers read review and news sites which means the content of the game doesn't really matter, only if people will impulse buy it or not.

(and Ikaruga was already the pinnacle)
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friedrich
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by friedrich »

hail good sir wrote:(and Ikaruga was already the pinnacle)
The pinnacle of what? Puzzle games?
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by Ruldra »

I came here because of Cave...I stayed around because of Toaplan.
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by n0rtygames »

Sinful wrote:Once you master Cave STGs there's no going back?
See, if you'd said "Yagawa games" - I'd totally agree with you.

Cave games are extremely fun for newcomers to the genre. Quite frankly, the real beauty comes from when Cave use their budget, awesome musicans and artists - then let Yagawa design the games.

See: Pink Sweets/Ibara

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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by trap15 »

Pink Sweets/Muchi Muchi Pork/Ibara, you mean :wink:
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by SuperSoaker360 »

n0rtygames wrote:then let Yagawa design the games.
What did trap15 do to you man? :(
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by KAI »

friedrich wrote:
KAI wrote:Cave is the pinnacle of shmup music and oversexualized lolis, the rest is subjective.
Contrary to your statement, which is objective, I guess?
Because that's the truth.
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by Aleksei »

shmuppyLove wrote:Go play Darius Gaiden 8)
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by Hagane »

friedrich wrote:The pinnacle of what? Puzzle games?
It's as much of a puzzle game as any DoDonPachi.
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by Zengeku3 »

SuperSoaker360 wrote:
n0rtygames wrote:then let Yagawa design the games.
What did trap15 do to you man? :(
Turns out trap15'ism is contagious. Please be wary.
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by Cuilan »

KAI wrote:Cave is the pinnacle of shmup music and oversexualized lolis, the rest is subjective.
The pinnacle of oversexualized lolis? That too is subjective in a world where Burunyanman exists.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39135
:lol:
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by Despatche »

doujin shmups all seem cave-inspired because that's all people seem to care about. there is a retarded amount of "doujin shmups" and the genres are all over the place. blah blah infinos.

due to the bandwagon effect, bullet hell has become The Standard which is regardless of whatever merit the concept has or any personal desires/feelings/opinions.

and yeah uh what does "master" mean because those guys either 1. stick to one game exclusively 2. play everything 3. have always refused to play any other type of game

why do people keep calling ibara "garegga 2" when batrider and bakraid exist anyway

stop calling ikaruga a "puzzle game", because that term is hilariously vague... especially the way people are trying to use it here. it's not much more of a "puzzle" game than any other static/pattern-based game
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Hagane wrote:Image
Damn right!
Despatche wrote:and yeah uh what does "master" mean because those guys either 1. stick to one game exclusively 2. play everything 3. have always refused to play any other type of game
this also
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by nasty_wolverine »

There is also the other yagawa games that get less mention:
1) Recca
2) DFK BL
3) Akai Katana Shin

I think the cave style pinnacles are DDP, DOJBL, and Ket, you can also throw in the mushi games. But seriously

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friedrich
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by friedrich »

Hagane wrote:
friedrich wrote:The pinnacle of what? Puzzle games?
It's as much of a puzzle game as any DoDonPachi.

It's not as much as a shooter as DDP though.

In DDP there aren't long parts where enemies basically do nothing and just wait for you to shoot them like in Ikaruga. If you don't play Ikaruga for score, there are many parts in the game that don't make any sense and aren't fun at all.
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Sinful
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by Sinful »

Wow, lots of replies to help clear stuff up for me. Thanks.
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Re: Once you master CAVE STGs, there's no going back?

Post by shmuppyLove »

Akai Katana is Yagawa??

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Only Shin mode or ... ??
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