Whats going on in america?

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DEL
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by DEL »

Moniker wrote;
Concern about civil liberties isn't feigned. It's just that prosperity is more important than most freedoms to the vast majority of human beings. Unless a large fraction of the US population is being dragged down to Gitmo for no reason, people are simply more worried about putting bread on the table. It's not a uniquely American position. And as for revolution, you can tear the constitution into as little pieces as you want, but it won't happen unless people are starving. And a vanishing minority of Americans are literally starving. I don't even necessarily think such inclinations are sad. Americans will yield liberties until they won't, at which point it'll stop, because politicians want to keep their jobs. Politicians, for their part, aren't evil Iagos plotting the dissolution of freedom. That's unbelievably naive. They have a job to do, and like any employed person, they want to keep it and so want as much power as possible to do it. Their chief mandate is to protect the lives and property of citizens. When people deem their power harmful, then that's when you'll see change. And that's a long way off.

Tangentially, I always thought that the idea that the 2nd Amendment was meant as a check against tyranny was slightly illogical. If you're planning to overthrow the government, you're committing treason, and therefore won't care all that much about the constitution or any other system of law in place.
I agree with "It's just that prosperity is more important than most freedoms to the vast majority of human beings.". But when the dust settles on the economy, you'll find an America with the NDAA bill, where US citizens can be named as possible terrorists and be hauled off & detained for an indefinite period. So yes, now is the perfect time for them to pass such laws under the radar, while people are more concerned about poverty than their freedom.
Skykid wrote;
Violent revolution obviously isn't the preferred option. The problem is you don't have the option at all.
The US Govt has always seemed to be fearful of violent uprising. There are several measures I can name over the years that hint at this.

I see in the Media that a lot of Americans feel this NDAA Bill as doing away with the Constitution.

Here's a little something fromThe Declaration of Independence :wink: - "that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Skykid »

Ed Oscuro wrote:
Skykid wrote:Violent revolution obviously isn't the preferred option. The problem is you don't have the option at all.
So then what happened to make SOPA and PIPA's backers take their bills off the table? :idea:
I get the example of public pressure postponing those bills, but SOPA was in the public domain. The NDAA was passed without opportunity for dissenting voices to be heard, like a Patriot Act mk.II.
The only reason for such an act would be if the government feared some kind of domestic uprising in the near future. All that terrorist guff really doesn't fly any more.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Acid King »

Ed Oscuro wrote: Remind me who prevented the President from trying terrorists domestically and shutting down the indefinite holding center?
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The same party that had control of the House, the Senate and the Executive from 2009 til 2011. Civilian trials were ditched out of political expedience. They couldn't take the heat when the Republicans, who were in no position to stop the movement of the trials, started beating them up on it. How terror suspects are tried is solely within the purview of the executive branch and if Congress had tried to cut it off, they'd either get smacked down by the Senate (as happened in October) or Obama could have vetoed it. They could have pushed on if they had really wanted to, they just didn't want the fight in the press.
I don't think the problem is the Republican Party per se. I'm mainly fed up with rhetoric designed to obscure the issues and lead people into feeling "both parties are to blame" when it's clear that in many (not all) cases blame rests with one party abandoning its earlier positions and scraping in line to a fringe movement.
I think both parties do this, just on different issues. That said, I'd rather see more fringe candidates and views in both parties equally. It would warm my heart to see OWS start pushing primary challenges for incumbent Democrats the same way the Tea Party knocked out establishment Republicans. We would see a lot more Ron Paul/Dennis Kucinich type coalitions emerge to bring attention to issues ignored by mainstream moderate pols.
Moniker wrote: Concern about civil liberties isn't feigned. It's just that prosperity is more important than most freedoms to the vast majority of human beings.
Hence the qualifier in my statement. I'm well aware that the vast majority of people don't give a shit about civil liberties. My statement was in reference to the people who were so concerned about Bush's civil liberties trespasses, who casually tossed around words like "fascist", that are now giving Obama a pass. I would say their concern is most certainly fraudulent. There has been a spate of articles recently (not to mention all the chatter in comments, blogs and message boards) where liberals who have taken Obama to task over his civil liberties record are being criticized, ostensibly for undermining the reelection effort.

That, to me, is pathetic. Now is the time to pressure Obama and the rest of the incumbent Democrats lest they take civil libertarians support for granted. The Republicans did this to small government conservatives throughout Bush's two terms and we all know how well that turned out (Irresponsible spending, two wars, new entitlements etc). And seriously, if not now, when? It seems like it's never a good time to tackle this stuff and, like DEL said, this stuff doesn't go away. Each new provision, each new power, each shitty new legal reasoning stacks one on top of the other. The longer the government has these powers the harder institutions fight to keep them and getting rid of them becomes more and more difficult. Just look at the horribly racist War on Drugs, the execrable state of our correction system and the dozens of other issues that get swept under the rug. There's plenty of room for support and criticism and there's no reason why in the run up to the general election liberals can't frame their support on the economy and other issues with criticism where it is most definitely needed.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BulletMagnet »

Acid King wrote:It would warm my heart to see OWS start pushing primary challenges for incumbent Democrats the same way the Tea Party knocked out establishment Republicans.
Part of me very much wants to concur with you on this, especially considering what a poor excuse for a "liberal" party the Democrats are these days, but as soon as I take a look at what the Tea Party has actually accomplished (or, more accurately, has refused to allow to be accomplished) I begin to have second thoughts. Electing the biggest nutcases you can find to "shake things up" always sounds appealing in the abstract, but the allure quickly fades as soon as you actually have to deal with them directly.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Acid King wrote:
I don't think the problem is the Republican Party per se. I'm mainly fed up with rhetoric designed to obscure the issues and lead people into feeling "both parties are to blame" when it's clear that in many (not all) cases blame rests with one party abandoning its earlier positions and scraping in line to a fringe movement.
I think both parties do this, just on different issues. That said, I'd rather see more fringe candidates and views in both parties equally. It would warm my heart to see OWS start pushing primary challenges for incumbent Democrats the same way the Tea Party knocked out establishment Republicans. We would see a lot more Ron Paul/Dennis Kucinich type coalitions emerge to bring attention to issues ignored by mainstream moderate pols.
When you say "both parties do this," if you refer to my quote - there's really no example of the President or the Democratic party scraping to extremists. The only wing of the Democratic Party that provokes ire from many directions is the part that was too comfortable in being cozy with banks - and that wasn't a purely Democratic vice. As far as the extreme Left (if there is such a thing), we've seen public sentiment on left issues from a great segment of the public trying to pull ahead of the President. For some it is his moderation or even concession on issues that drives them nuts (although, as I have said, it's not possible to say that on Gitmo where he has been forced to keep it open - he can't transfer the prisoners to the U.S. or even, if I remember correctly, to other nations; Republicans have willfully ignored the great track record of Federal courts in trying terrorist suspects and getting convictions when needed - timely exonerations the rest of the time); for others, it was PIPA and SOPA which the White House got ahead of even before the massive wave of protests hit Congress. They were not merely reacting, like Rep. Lamar Smith and others, but they got ahead of the sentiment and quietly but sternly informed Congress they wouldn't pass the bills. And some things, like the protests in Wisconsin over the Republican Governor's overreaching attack on unions, isn't really something Obama could attack directly, that I know of.

There is at least one thing that President Obama missed doing when he could have, and that was making use of the indignation against the banks to really overhaul the system (not nationalize or socialize it, just get rid of loopholes and put teeth in regulations that we still don't have). So there is that.

All the same, I was reminded (Thursday's morning NPR) that for all the complaints, Obama has been acting as a leader. After all, the example went, if Obama wasn't a leader, how come he managed to push through universal health care, something the Democrats have been aiming at for 75 years? If anything, he's been more decisive than Clinton, despite all the portrayals as being too concerned with getting outside voices and hesitating. I think we'll find during the campaign season that a lot of this is a pack of lies cooked up by Tea Party activists and refined by Romney and the rest.

There is one set of facts that I have kept going back to. Ronald Reagan, though he criticized the TVA a considerable amount in his 1968 speech tour, bragged at other times about voting for FDR. For him, and the William F. Buckley type of conservative more generally, it appears that the arguments were more carefully reasoned and really interested in taking the Republican party toward popular acceptance. President Nixon spoke of a "new revolution" including programs that soon after would have been unthinkable to Republicans, including welfare, and got a fair amount of reforms into place. Even with the New Deal agreements breaking down (having been under attack since the 1950s, at least, in academia), there was more stomach for dealing with these issues. I hardly need contrast this to today, except to say that only as recently as the first year of Obama's presidency another widely revered black American political figure, General Colin Powell, was trying to promote a "big tent" vision of Republicanism. That he would even be forced to push for the acceptance of other groups within the Grand Old Party is highly embarrassing.

Alright, I'll leave this link here: Monthly Review 'Zine: "On Neoliberalism: An Interview with David Harvey" by Sasha Liley. A look at some arguments about a modern takeover of government by neoliberalism - 'theory and the practice,' including forays into "FORD TO CITY: DROP DEAD," Milton Friedman and the Chicago School of economics in post-coup Chile, c. 1975, and the Mont Pelerin Society (which is, you would think, more fertile grounds for conspiracy theories than the Illuminati or the Bilderberg Group - amateurs in comparison, "some say!") It's interesting how times change - in the 1930s-40s, in political science the Chicago School referred to a group explicitly for more central planning, of the technocratic variety - that got more or less wiped out by the 1950s.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

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Re: Whats going on in america?

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He's a douchebag for perpetuating it, but that view is not even remotely specific to Rick Santorum. The meme of liberal college professors brainwashing innocent God-fearing kids into commie atheists has been rampant among movement conservatives for decades. Of course, the reality is almost as catastrophic: professors are indoctrinating kids into thinking that it's necessary to actually back up your statements with solid citations, sound reasoning, and relevant data.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Acid King »

Ed Oscuro wrote: When you say "both parties do this," if you refer to my quote - there's really no example of the President or the Democratic party scraping to extremists.
I should have been clearer, as I was referring to them switching positions. There's no example of them "scraping to extremists", as you say, because there's been no significant socialist/progressive electoral movement to knock out the ones currently in power. Without a change in the composition of the party, there's no reason to cater to them because... well... they don't exist. When was the last time an incumbent Democrat was knocked out in a primary? The only one I can think of is Specter and he was only a Democrat for 13 months. If the situations were reversed though (meaning a flip of the Tea Party and OWS), they'd be doing the same thing Republicans are.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

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A few hours from shutdown 2013. Feel like eating some popcorn and chatting about this as they drive face first into a wall. Nothing makes people realize how much they love government on the whole like taking it away...

The last time Republicans pissed all over the floor because they lost an election, it lasted a month and cost about 2 billion more than not doing it would have. On the one hand, I don't see the modern Party agreeing to retroactive pay to cover time spent in furlough. On the other, I don't see them folding, ever. Obamacare goes through, and their party dies. Obamacare not being an utter disaster, and Texas being on the brink of becoming a battleground state. It's little wonder they're acting as they are.

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Acid King wrote:When was the last time an incumbent Democrat was knocked out in a primary?
Well, there is some actual progressive pressure, which is astonishing enough. Bloomberg 2.0 was defeated by multiracial family dude, and lest we forget, we threw Clinton over the side of the boat the instant some guy who looked liberal appeared on the stage.

We all think Warren doesn't have a chance in hell at the king's seat, but... well, this article had me re-thinking the unthinkable.

The internet is probably to blame for this acceleration; we have New Republic driving the bus of one party, Daily Kos the bus of the other.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

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BryanM wrote:Obamacare goes through, and their party dies.
Considering the amount and degree of disastrous, humiliating failures that the modern Conservative leadership has given this country even in very recent years, not to mention what a minuscule segment of the population it's actually acting in the interest of, the contemporary Republican party should have died an ignominious death several times over by now. Unfortunately, thanks in no small part to decades of utterly pathetic Democrat pants-wetting at the first sign of conflict, that minuscule segment now controls more wealth than most of the rest of the country combined, not to mention most of the media, and no matter how badly conservatives screw up or how unabashedly wrong their "ideas" are repeatedly proven to be, they can simply absorb the blow and take another undeserved crack at power, whilst a sizable portion of the country can be convinced over and over again that every single time it's REALLY been the liberals' fault, somehow. This will be but the latest chapter in this seemingly endless cycle.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

BulletMagnet wrote:the contemporary Republican party should have died an ignominious death several times over by now.
I consider things in cosmic-style Lovecraftian terms, so "soon" to me is a couple decades. Your assessment is correct: they did kill themselves already. And they're dead where they stand. What you see now is merely a political zombie.

Old people don't suddenly plop out of existence, it takes a while for the voter churn to work. Everyone 45 and younger knows what the world is really like and can't be easily divided by race, religion or sexual preference. The pressures of technology and productivity are hardly going to let up their death grips on the young magically.

The reign of Reagan is over. Back to the reign of FDR.

This is their last, safest, desperate chance to light the country on fire and maybe hold onto what they have. For a few more years.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

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BryanM wrote:The reign of Reagan is over. Back to the reign of FDR.
As much as I wish I could be as optimistic as you are on this front, I just don't see it happening...FDR's successors were far too complacent for far too long for any reasonable observer to expect this problem to solve itself. Problem is, too many of the self-important Bill Mahers among us still think it will (not that I'm lumping you in with that set, but I do think it'll take more than "wait for the previous generation to die off").
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

BulletMagnet wrote:(not that I'm lumping you in with that set, but I do think it'll take more than "wait for the previous generation to die off").
Well the demographic forces arrayed against the GOP is currently insurmountable by any rational measure. I can go into how Texas is a lost cause for them in the soonish future if you've not already heard that song and dance before?

As for the DP becoming actually, like liberal and stuff... well that's a horse of a different color. The progressive caucus only has ~33% of their party's seats in the House, but I try to be irresponsibly optimistic to avoid spending my days in the fetal position in a gutter somewhere.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

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BryanM wrote:Well the demographic forces arrayed against the GOP is currently insurmountable by any rational measure.
Yet somehow they keep surmounting it.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

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BulletMagnet wrote:Yet somehow they keep surmounting it.
If that were true, Mitt Romney would be president right now. Or the standoff on this budget thing would be congress vs. Obama, instead of the House vs. the world. And there wouldn't have been more votes for the D in the house than R. And they wouldn't be struggling so hard to stop the non-whites and college kids from voting.

40% of their voters are white evangelical protestants. 40 freaking percent.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

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America is a country in conflict with itself against its own self interests. It just won't admit it.

Try to help these people on the left, the people on the right moan.

Try to help the people on the right, the people on the left moan.


I see this thread turned all political and non sensical to anyone outside of the USA. Can I ask why so much detail is necessary in American politics? I mean its just politics right? Its not a science because different people want different things. Can't there be a society where things are shared around and your turn will eventually come? Instead of moaning all the time about something coming in that you don't want. It seems a very selfish self serving society to me.

Just read about the White House shutting down. Don't know what this entails. It seems that you would have to have at least 10 Presidents in a row failing the countries debt concerns to get where your at now. Even if the USA started building everything itself for 10 years whilst the read of the world put their feet up, you would still be in debt.

Its also astonishing how many bridges in the USA are about to fall down. Again how can the country get into such a state? Is there nobody that will fix it for free? I mean, its a bridge, it serves a purpose to keep the economy going and you people are just going to let it rot and fall down? The Forth bridge in Scotland needs to be painted 365 days a year because if you stop it will fall down from rust erosion etc. No time to stop.

You want to go to space but your bridges on planet Earth are falling down. You have the latest military hardware that is essentially from the future with no wars to fight with it. Your so scared of your own shadows, but don't worry, soon enough you won't be able to afford to keep the lights on.

Am I the only one here that thinks America has no hope of recovering?
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by GaijinPunch »

neorichieb1971 wrote:America is a country in conflict with itself against its own self interests. It just won't admit it.

Try to help these people on the left, the people on the right moan.

Try to help the people on the right, the people on the left moan.
Too bad it can't be like Japan, where everyone is more or less fucked (or not, depending on how you look at it) and nobody seems to care.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

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neorichieb1971 wrote:You want to go to space but your bridges on planet Earth are falling down. You have the latest military hardware that is essentially from the future with no wars to fight with it. Your so scared of your own shadows, but don't worry, soon enough you won't be able to afford to keep the lights on.
Welcome to America, where we have plenty of money to spy on our own citizens and bomb foreign countries, but not a single dime to spend on critical infrastructure and services that would improve the lives of every citizen.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

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IT HAPPENED
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Re: Whats going on in america?

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So... are police non-essential services?
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

This is a Federal shutdown, not state or local - but the funding picture is a bit complicated at times. Some of the governmental functions affected are mentioned here. But apparently police can be affected, as mentioned by the D.C. mayor's comments here.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by GaijinPunch »

It was kind of a joke.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Well, it got me thinking, anyway. My first response was just "no way" but it turns out it's more complicated than that...
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Re: Whats going on in america?

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I can't expect anything less from a country composed near-entirely out of the sons and daughters of viciously competing immigrants from every other country on the planet.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

But actually other countries, such as "we don't have any ethnic problems, because we have no ethnic divisions, lol" countries like Japan and Korea can also have apocalyptic budget showdowns. And some others don't. I wonder how much the British style of parliamentary model could help or hurt - Britain seems to vote the bums out before there's any public mentality to "vote the bums out;" whereas here in the States we'll have to wait until 2014 to even begin to chip away at the blocs of bums - the Constitution's antidemocratic elements are coming into play there. I don't know whether that would make for better or worse policy in the long run, but I bet if you could have the quick holding of elections or reappraisal of coalitions as seen in some other models that the quick flow of political movements could help prevent these things from getting so out of control. Yet, again, as I said before, apparently many nations have similar problems over the budget; just having a different model isn't going to wipe out the disparity in conservative and liberal interest representation in the government; it might lessen some of the political grandstanding though.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by neorichieb1971 »

A true democracy would definitely be helped by the peoples ability to "vote out" as well as "vote in".

Politics would be very tight rope in nature and they would be more accountable at every turn.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Everything I've read recently indicates you're right on the money about that.

That being said, there are times when it can be good to be "antidemocratic" - the term here is "pluralist," where not everything can be decided by just a majority vote, so that minority rights can be respected. The usual example is voting and civil rights in the '60s. I don't know how or if we can have both good things - protecting minority rights by limiting democracy, and also making sure that we aren't giving multi-year guaranteed preaching contracts and opportunities for global economic sabotage to radicals far out of line with what most people want (which is, truthfully, probably more accurate a description of the polarized members of Congress than not, who move to the edges of opinion, while most Americans on both sides are nearly identical on most any policy issue you could ask about).
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by neorichieb1971 »

You should only be able to get help in America if the peoples values are American in the first place. In such a scenario you shouldn't have divisions of interest.

The problem in America is that the government debt has had little to no impact on most people in the USA at all. If you walked into a store tomorrow and saw dwindling stocks of goods you would soon see some sort of panic stricken society kicking into action. I am sure guns would soon start blazing for that last loaf of bread.. In such a situation, I'm glad I'm here and not there.

As far as the money situation goes, isn't the USA accountable to the foreign countries that loaned it money in the first place? What if an investigation shows that America was literally in bankruptcy territory around the 2nd invasion of Iraq. That would not send a good signal to countries like Greece who have had much more of an impact of bankruptcy than the US has.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

neorichieb1971 wrote:You should only be able to get help in America if the peoples values are American in the first place. In such a scenario you shouldn't have divisions of interest.
Not sure I follow you here. There's no reason there can't be differences of opinion in America; the challenge is to keep people from turning a debate into a cataclysmic showdown.

What it means to be American is always open to debate. At one time that meant signing allegiance to a Constitution that enshrined slavery, and many people would argue that governmental support for the death penalty, abortion, or (whatever bothers you goes here) is an outrageous, murderous scandal. We can only aim at perfection, but probably won't reach it.
The problem in America is that the government debt has had little to no impact on most people in the USA at all.
I'm going to just respond to this first sentence: What you've written is the belief many people have. A local professor, Dr. Corder, was asked about this by a reporter, who was researching the story "the debt business doesn't affect you." The professor pointed out that nearly a million government employees aren't going to work. Imagine if we lost 800,000 jobs in one month - that would definitely be newsworthy. Those people aren't eating at local restaurants, Head Start isn't providing meals and oversight for kids, and the IRS is freezing their auditing process - just to name a few examples where we lose growth or revenue.

Even if those Federal employees go back on the job and get their pay back, we've still lost a few days' worth of economic growth. It might be made up later in a spurt, and it might not.

This is why many (especially on the "liberal" side) economics theories promote the government spending money now. There's nothing to be gained from just keeping money in a jar. (Now, conservatives disagree about where the money should be spent - they would rather private individuals have more influence and say over where the money is spent, although in truth the wealthy tend not to spend on things that stimulate the economy, at the rate that people making less money do.)
As far as the money situation goes, isn't the USA accountable to the foreign countries that loaned it money in the first place?
Only in terms of asking for more money. If we didn't promise a return (backed up by the long tendency of the US government to pay its bills, which in all certainty continues in the future) then they wouldn't invest in us again.
What if an investigation shows that America was literally in bankruptcy territory around the 2nd invasion of Iraq. That would not send a good signal to countries like Greece who have had much more of an impact of bankruptcy than the US has.
It won't show that because we weren't. However, if we do default here, it will be the first "completely self-inflicted" confidence crisis. However, borrowers will the final judges here. Many pundits and analysts have held off on stating what they think would happen if the US really did fail to pay its debts. This is in part because we don't know how long this will go on (or if it will return). Yet what's happening is likely to be a relatively short-term phenomenon - we will be back to paying our bills and making our creditors happy soon enough, and that's the bottom line for them.

I don't see any situation where the United States says "we can't pay this debt, forgive it plz." That's essentially what's happened in some other states (I don't know about Russia's short debt default however). Couple this with continued signs of good growth in the U.S. and many prospective investors will still likely feel that the U.S. government is a good place to invest - better than many alternatives. That's what matters in this, in terms of money. Of course, having a good reputation worldwide is important as well.
Last edited by Ed Oscuro on Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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GaijinPunch
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Re: Whats going on in america?

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Ed Oscuro wrote:But actually other countries, such as "we don't have any ethnic problems, because we have no ethnic divisions, lol" countries like Japan and Korea can also have apocalyptic budget showdowns.
Japan's problem is b/c it's a 3-party system, all that overlap each other (but still bicker), and is way more of an old boys club than America is. As stupid and as impotent to change as it is, it at least had the sense to make an NHS system devoid of all the things that make health care in America awful: pre-existing condition issues, astronomically priced services done but not covered by insurance, and crazy premiums. (It is a progressive tax though, so it can get pricey if you're way up on the food chain.) I will still give them some credit... they have gotten some things done while I've lived here. Privatization of the post office was huge. And in the wake of the 3/11 they forced businesses to cut their electricity consumption, and they did this all in a VERY short time span. If it was America, how many dick hole corporations do you think would have stood up and said, "but it's my constitutional right to consume as much electricity as I want!" considering anything was even done about it in the first place? :-/
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