Potential First Time PCB buyer, I have a few questions

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

Please bear with me, I have never bought a PCB before I have no idea of how to hook them up. Is there any way to hook one up to a regular TV and a set of controls and play? I would appreciate it if someone could guide me through the steps; necessary parts, etc. Also, I am looking for a 1994 first print of Raiden DX, the Fabtek US licensed version in English. How much do those usually go for, and if I recall, does it come with autofire standard on button C? I'm not looking to buy right away, just to compare prices, etc. Sorry for being clueless about this kind of stuff.

[ookitarepanda]

For play on a regular TV, you'll probably need what's called a "supergun." You can think of the arcade stuff almost like a console for a console. It's a machine that can take input from a control and send it to a PCB, and also send information (Audio/Video) from a PCB to a TV. In addition, a PCB is like a console in itself, hardware and software all in one. There are all sorts of models of superguns that output all sorts of different video styles (RGB, composite, component, etc.). People on the forums often have them for sale.

One thing to note, and maybe this is redundant for you, is that games like Raiden DX are vertical, so you would have to rotate your TV 90 degrees counterclockwise in order to play them. They fit to 4:3 TVs, but have vertical orientations.

As far as the Raiden DX, I think that PCB hovers around $100 at the moment, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

[chempop]

There is basically 2 routes you could take. The first would be to get a prebuilt, fully functional, factory made supergun (see Sigma Raijin or AV-7000, SEGA boardmaster, etc). The Second option would require quite a bit more know-how and possibly some tools, but could save you a bit of money if done correctly. What I'm talking about is generating a setup by piecing together the various components: Supergun PCB (should have AV outputs), JAMMA harness connector, power supply (aka PSU), and control stick or pad. Some members make really nice custom pieces (RGB?) and house them all in a nice box with a very professional wiring and handywork.

[Skykid]

1: you need a supergun. The cheapest are Vogateks, small and simple. They cost around £30 and have a few designs: RGB or S-video out are available. I recommend getting the type with Neo geo controller ports so you can plug an old Neo AES stick in and go for it.

2: Vogateks need power. You can get a basic ATX psu from ebay for about £10.

3: Plug the supergun into your TV. Imagine it's a console. Plug your pcb into your supergun.

4: Rotate screen as as necessary. Power on.

DX is actually closer to £100 these days than $100 (sorry to break it to you) but the US variant should be cheaper than the Japanese. My English board for distribution in the UK by Fabtek has autofire on C, not sure about the US one but don't see why it would differ.

[alamone]

Just as a FYI, Raiden 2 and DX use a strange refresh rate so it depends on your TV whether it will be displayed correctly;
even if it does it's likely that some parts will be chopped off the edges. I'd recommend getting a PVM or a XRGB-2 if you want to be
sure that it even displays properly.

[ookitarepanda]

(sorry to break it to you)

Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse meeeeeeeeeeeeee, princess

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 44#p939644

[Dave_K.]

I'm tempted to move this into the Hardware section, as thats where these questions are asked, but for now I'll leave this here in case Emo Fox Jet Pilot wants to change the title to "WTB: Raiden DX PCB".

I'd recommend getting a PVM or a XRGB-2 if you want to be
sure that it even displays properly.

An XRGB-2 will not change the refresh rate, just the video Khz from ~15 to ~31. Your LCD or TV will still need to display ~54hz refresh. If you have a TV or LCD capable if displaying PAL signals you should be ok. PVM would be the best.

Or skip all this potential supergun problems, and just find a cheap 19" or 25" woody arcade cab locally (try Craiglist) for ~$150-300. You'd be surprised how cheap some of these go for when nobody wants them locally. Worse case is you install a new jamma harness for ~$20.

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

For play on a regular TV, you'll probably need what's called a "supergun." You can think of the arcade stuff almost like a console for a console. It's a machine that can take input from a control and send it to a PCB, and also send information (Audio/Video) from a PCB to a TV. In addition, a PCB is like a console in itself, hardware and software all in one. There are all sorts of models of superguns that output all sorts of different video styles (RGB, composite, component, etc.). People on the forums often have them for sale.

One thing to note, and maybe this is redundant for you, is that games like Raiden DX are vertical, so you would have to rotate your TV 90 degrees counterclockwise in order to play them. They fit to 4:3 TVs, but have vertical orientations.

As far as the Raiden DX, I think that PCB hovers around $100 at the moment, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks so much for the information, I'm going to have a look around the internet to see if I can find any good prices for a supergun. Also, I did know that Raiden DX requires the TV to be rotated on it's side, but I have I question. I played Raiden III on my PS2 and I rotated the TV, and the colors at one end turned purple-ish. Is there any way to avoid that?

There is basically 2 routes you could take. The first would be to get a prebuilt, fully functional, factory made supergun (see Sigma Raijin or AV-7000, SEGA boardmaster, etc). The Second option would require quite a bit more know-how and possibly some tools, but could save you a bit of money if done correctly. What I'm talking about is generating a setup by piecing together the various components: Supergun PCB (should have AV outputs), JAMMA harness connector, power supply (aka PSU), and control stick or pad. Some members make really nice custom pieces (RGB?) and house them all in a nice box with a very professional wiring and handywork.

When making a custom setup, is it possible to hook up a controller, let's say a PS2 controller or other console gamepad? Also, are the controls predefined if using a gamepad, or can you change them somehow through dipswitch settings?

1: you need a supergun. The cheapest are Vogateks, small and simple. They cost around £30 and have a few designs: RGB or S-video out are available. I recommend getting the type with Neo geo controller ports so you can plug an old Neo AES stick in and go for it.

2: Vogateks need power. You can get a basic ATX psu from ebay for about £10.

3: Plug the supergun into your TV. Imagine it's a console. Plug your pcb into your supergun.

4: Rotate screen as as necessary. Power on.

DX is actually closer to £100 these days than $100 (sorry to break it to you) but the US variant should be cheaper than the Japanese. My English board for distribution in the UK by Fabtek has autofire on C, not sure about the US one but don't see why it would differ.

The setup process sounds simple enough, and regarding the price of the board itself, it sounds pretty reasonable for what I consider my favorite shmup of all time. About the autofire, I remember playing the US version some years ago at a local family fun center, and it had the 3-button setup with autofire on C. However, more recently, I have played one at a different location, which also happens to be the US version, but it only had the standard semi-auto fire 2 button setup.

Just as a FYI, Raiden 2 and DX use a strange refresh rate so it depends on your TV whether it will be displayed correctly;
even if it does it's likely that some parts will be chopped off the edges. I'd recommend getting a PVM or a XRGB-2 if you want to be
sure that it even displays properly.

Thanks for informing me about that, and by any chance do you happen to know what is the default monitor that the Raiden arcade cab setups use?

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

I'm tempted to move this into the Hardware section, as thats where these questions are asked, but for now I'll leave this here in case Emo Fox Jet Pilot wants to change the title to "WTB: Raiden DX PCB".

Oops, sorry about that, go ahead and move it, I probably won't be buying anything anytime soon, until I am completely informed about how all of this works.

[cools]

until I am completely informed about how all of this works.

You're doing this all wrong. Step 1 is "I want to play arcade games" followed quickly by step 2 "Buying lots of stuff without a clue" then step 3 "Guys how does this work? I think it's broken."

If you were informed at the start you'd be thinking "screw that nonsense" and be buying the Playstation port instead.

[Skykid]

until I am completely informed about how all of this works.

You're doing this all wrong. Step 1 is "I want to play arcade games" followed quickly by step 2 "Buying lots of stuff without a clue" then step 3 "Guys how does this work? I think it's broken."

If you were informed at the start you'd be thinking "screw that nonsense" and be buying the Playstation port instead.

Ha ha, funny cos true.

(sorry to break it to you)

Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse meeeeeeeeeeeeee, princess

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 44#p939644

I meant break it to him, not break it to you.

$220 is far too much though.

I played Raiden III on my PS2 and I rotated the TV, and the colors at one end turned purple-ish. Is there any way to avoid that?

When you rotate a crt it needs to be off. After rotation don't turn it on for 5 minutes. Should solve the problem.

[Ed Oscuro]

You're doing this all wrong. Step 1 is "I want to play arcade games" followed quickly by step 2 "Buying lots of stuff without a clue" then step 3 "Guys how does this work? I think it's broken.

My experience to a tee, except step 3 is "I KNOW it's broken."

XRGB-2 or 2+ and a VGA PC monitor + Raiden Fighters series - that works. But Raiden 2? NOPE

Raiden Project is a great port and fun to play, although being a Raiden II / DX completist I could see why Emo Fox Pilot would want the "real thing" too. Can't beat the allure of a PCB sometimes.

However, if you just have a good CRT TV and a component or RGB connection for a TV, it's pretty much a hassle-free experience. Heck, I even use the same arcade stick with the game that I use in my supergun.

[Ed Oscuro]

I played Raiden III on my PS2 and I rotated the TV, and the colors at one end turned purple-ish. Is there any way to avoid that?

It could be that the degaussing function didn't fire off when you started it again - or it could be that the set just isn't built for playing on its side.

Luckily you can trade away screen size of a fairly normal size CRT TV with Raiden Project and end up with an active play area that's very close in size to what a real arcade cabinet would have.

Probably the "smart" way to play these games is to forego the use of a supergun and get an arcade cabinet, especially if you are buying bunches of PCBs. But it uses space. Too bad my only cabinet isn't JAMMA...

Speaking of that, there's the difference between arcade monitors, TVs, and monitors. Aside from quality differences (I think many arcade monitors are actually rougher quality than good TVs, and certainly rough compared to PC VGA monitors), arcade monitors are typically just a chassic without circuitry for handling various consumer formats (PC VGA, TV connections), and typically (perhaps always) lack any kind of digital processing or functions to "support" various resolutions. Instead they are driven by the native RGB signals coming from the arcade hardware. Very straightforward. It's really all our consumer hardware (PCs and TVs) that are odd, with computer monitors needing some specific functions that complicate handling a simple signal, and TV and equipment manufacturers not wanting to spend a few dimes per unit supplying an RGB interconnect, instead supporting only compressed (but thankfully standardized) formats when some new recording medium supported them (S-Video and YPbPr component video).

[CIT]

Just as a FYI, Raiden 2 and DX use a strange refresh rate so it depends on your TV whether it will be displayed correctly;
even if it does it's likely that some parts will be chopped off the edges. I'd recommend getting a PVM or a XRGB-2 if you want to be
sure that it even displays properly.

Thanks for informing me about that, and by any chance do you happen to know what is the default monitor that the Raiden arcade cab setups use?

I used to own Raiden DX when I didn't have my cab yet and played my PCBs on a supergun. Like most Seibu Kaihatsu boards it's really fussy and it took a long time to get it to work. Had to jack the voltage up a bit to get it to display sprites correctly and still there was some synch issue that caused the left edge of the image to be warped. And this was on a Barco studio monitor.

There's no default monitor for the game, as there was never a dedicated Raiden DX cabinet. Most cabs use Nanao, Hantarex, etc. monitors, but they tend to be models that you can't really buy as a stand-alone.

I found the single best monitor for superguns to be a Philips CM8802 Amiga monitor. Very crisp image, easy to tweak the picture and can handle PCBs with strange frequencies. That's also the monitor that ended up displaying Raiden DX without problems. Only downside is that it's a pretty small monitor.

Long story short: If this is just about Raiden DX it might not be worth going through the trouble as there is also the PS1 port. If you really want to go the PCB route it may be better to start with something easy-to-use, like a Toaplan game.

[cools]

Raiden Project is a great port and fun to play, although being a Raiden II / DX completist I could see why Emo Fox Pilot would want the "real thing" too. Can't beat the allure of a PCB sometimes.

DX was the first game I bought when I was getting back into arcade stuff properly. I still have it, though I did swap the USA version for a British one in a deal.

But what everyone else has said really: get a decent CRT that'll handle RGB, and a well built supergun with a proper PSU and you shouldn't have any issues.

[Vyxx]

Raiden Project is a great port and fun to play, although being a Raiden II / DX completist I could see why Emo Fox Pilot would want the "real thing" too. Can't beat the allure of a PCB sometimes.

DX was the first game I bought when I was getting back into arcade stuff properly. I still have it, though I did swap the USA version for a British one in a deal.

But what everyone else has said really: get a decent CRT that'll handle RGB, and a well built supergun with a proper PSU and you shouldn't have any issues.

Basically this. I used a supergun for years before I finally got my first Cab. I had a Sigma AV7000 which is I believe considered one of the better superguns you can buy, and it was awesome. I had some issues though (which I believe some people have already mentioned) with all my different monitors and sync issues. I ended up selling my Raiden Fighters Jet board, along with my Xexex board because I could get either to sync properly with any monitor I used.

Other than that, I did have some slight issues with a 1942 board, my supergun simply couldn't get enough power, even when I adjusted the 5V line. I would get slight color distortion and the odd time some sprites would look corrupted. The second I popped the board in a real cab it worked flawlessly, but having used my supergun for dozens of boards I'm convinced this was just the fact that it was a much older board that just needed more juice.

Also, grab yourself an Ibara board >_>

[Skykid]

DX was the first game I bought when I was getting back into arcade stuff properly. I still have it, though I did swap the USA version for a British one in a deal.

Any particular reason?

[PC Engine Fan X!]

You can get one of those Matt Ross produced Superguns (his latest ones sport Component Video output to a Component Video equipped TV monitor setup using an RGB to NTSC video signal transcoder setup). Most of his superguns use RCA composite video, S-Video and/or Component video hookups for ease of use with the typical NTSC-based CRT TV monitors sold in the USA. Plus, he'd use a pair of standard arcade speakers (rated at 8 ohms max) inside the metal cage enclosure of the supergun itself and both the sound effects and BGM tunes would be piped through those without any additional equipement to buy...so they're solid superguns in their own right. You'd adjust the main volume pot on the desired arcade PCB to your liking -- easy as pie. They can even output in either RCA composite video, S-Video, component video + in addition to outputting in glorious RGB as well at the same time. Most superguns can't output the two signals, RGB & the various NTSC signals at the same time -- it's either one or the other but with a Matt Ross supergun setup, it's a piece of cake.

If you can get ahold of one of those Commodore Amiga 1080 or 1084S 14" RGB monitors, they're worth their weight in gold for their highly versatile multi-sync frequencies when running the odd-ball Seibu-Kaihatsu & Toaplan Jamma PCBs with a supergun setup. The Amiga 1084-S (the 'S' designation is short for stereo capability from the get-go) monitor has all the necessary adjustment pots to adjust the overall screen parameters to your liking when booting up your favorite arcade shmup PCBs. You'd just need a custom made RGB cable to hook up to the backside of the Amiga monitor's RGB input port and you're good to go in that respective department (usually a DB-9 interface which is a 9-pinout interface at best or it's a mini DB-8 setup with a round 8-pinout interface instead -- your RGB input will vary among the one of the two RGB inputs chosen & installed at the factory depending on what 1084S monitor is acquired though). The original Amiga 1080 monitors came with an DB-9 interface at best (for inputting a low-res 15kHz RGB signal).

Just like you, I first got my feet wet delving into the world of Jamma arcade PCBs with a supergun before graduating to the better and more expensive Japanese candy cab experience. Once you get a sample taste of what the arcade PCB hobby has to offer, there's no turning back. ^_~

A micro-sized supergun by the name of MAK (Multi Arcade Konsole) supergun made/sold in Germany back in the day is quite tiny for it's size and even the PSU (power supply unit) is bigger than the actual supergun itself is saying something. Has the requiste built-in pots to adjust the R, G, B lines to your liking.

If you start to deal with high-res 31kHz (kilohertz) JVS based PCBs running at 640 x 480 resolution, then by using an Sega or Capcom I/O to Jamma adapter , it's doable to play those arcade games on a regular low-res 15 kHz RGB monitor setup running at various resolutions including 320 x 240 and up.

Some standard Jamma PCBs have been known to offer interlaced fake high-res modes that'll display on a low-res RGB monitor (i.e. Hanabi De Joon running on the Seta Aleck arcade motherboard and with Namco's arcade puzzler of Mr. Driller 2 PCB as well).

If you decide to go the more expensive candy cab route, by picking up an Taito Egret 29 or an Taito Egret II -- they both offer elegant solutions to rotate the arcade monitor from horizontal (yoko) to vertical (tate) with ease. It's so easy that it's a one person task indeed. The latter Taito produced Egret III candy cabs did away with the arcade monitor rotating mechanism, so thus, it doesn't tate whatsoever.

Another issue with the dedicated low-res arcade monitors, is if you decide to upgrade the installed dual-sync monitor chassis to a tri-sync one, you'll end up losing the razor-sharpness afforded with a low-res arcade monitor chassis setup (but gain the ability to play those cool high-res 31kHz arcade games like Sega Naomi, Sammy Atomiswave, Taito Type X, Taito Type X2 and it's X+ variant, etc). That's the significant trade-off issue in going with a dual-sync monitor chassis setup (15kHz & 24kHz) or with a tri-sync setup of (15khz , 24khz & 31kHz). Some folks would rather stick with a dedicated dual-sync monitor chassis setup and play their favorite low-res arcade shmups the way it was meant to be enjoyed/presented.

Just to give you an idea, the Cave SH-3 powered Dodonpachi Dai Fukkatsu version 1.5 PCB (a standard Jamma PCB) looks absolutely goregeous running on a low-res arcade monitor setup. For a mere $525.00 USD or thereabouts, such a super-mint DDP-DFK 1.5 Jamma conversion PCB kit can be had at that attractive pricepoint nowadays. Something to think about if you decide to go down the Cave SH-3 jamma PCB route with Ibara, DDP-DFK 1.5, etc.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

until I am completely informed about how all of this works.

You're doing this all wrong. Step 1 is "I want to play arcade games" followed quickly by step 2 "Buying lots of stuff without a clue" then step 3 "Guys how does this work? I think it's broken."

If you were informed at the start you'd be thinking "screw that nonsense" and be buying the Playstation port instead.

Well, that's why I am here asking all of these questions, and besides, I already have the PSX port, or shall I say I burned it to a CD and I play using the swap method. Besides, I actually want to own the PCB because it has much better visuals and sound quality than the port.

I found the single best monitor for superguns to be a Philips CM8802 Amiga monitor. Very crisp image, easy to tweak the picture and can handle PCBs with strange frequencies. That's also the monitor that ended up displaying Raiden DX without problems. Only downside is that it's a pretty small monitor.

Long story short: If this is just about Raiden DX it might not be worth going through the trouble as there is also the PS1 port. If you really want to go the PCB route it may be better to start with something easy-to-use, like a Toaplan game.

By small, how small do you mean, and about how much do they go for? Speaking of Toaplan games, about how much does Flying Shark or Fire Shark go for? Sorry for all the questions, but I was also wondering about the price of lesser known PCBs, like Taito's Ashura Blaster or Jaleco's Desert War.

Also, grab yourself an Ibara board >_>

I've actually wanted to play Ibara, but I never got the chance to, is it good?

[Ed Oscuro]

There's the What's It Worth thread in the Trading Station for price inquiries, but Flying Shark (Sky Shark on US domestic releases) is somewhere around $70-$120 last I checked, tilted towards the low end of that range, while Fire Shark is double that or more, $200-$300+.

[lettuce]

until I am completely informed about how all of this works.

You're doing this all wrong. Step 1 is "I want to play arcade games" followed quickly by step 2 "Buying lots of stuff without a clue" then step 3 "Guys how does this work? I think it's broken."

If you were informed at the start you'd be thinking "screw that nonsense" and be buying the Playstation port instead.

Yeah i loved DX in the arcades and it looks like it might never be emulated in MAME or the like, so the psx port is the best i can get atm .

[chempop]

The latter Taito produced Egret III candy cabs did away with the arcade monitor rotating mechanism, so thus, it doesn't tate whatsoever.

Pretty darned sure the Egret 3 can be vertical. Just because a cab doesn't have a rotate mechanism, doesn't mean it can't have a tate monitor. The Cyberlead is the only cab off the top of my head that might actually not be suited for a vertical monitor.

[emphatic]

Well, that's why I am here asking all of these questions, and besides, I already have the PSX port, or shall I say I burned it to a CD and I play using the swap method. Besides, I actually want to own the PCB because it has much better visuals and sound quality than the port.

Did you try playing the port on a CRT in TATE? I've played the port in my EGRET II and I have the PCB, and while it's been a while since I ran the port, I don't remember it looking any worse than the PCB. I have the newer hardware PCB too, so the port's sound is way better.

I say, get a nice CRT first and play the port, then if that's still not "good enough", get yourself a nice supergun for that CRT as a second step. Superguns will always be around, CRTs won't.

[Ed Oscuro]

Raiden II via Raiden Project on a Trinitron via component cables off a PS2 looks amazing, IMO.

[brentsg]

You could have NFG pick up a supergun for you when he's in Japan next August.

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

Well, that's why I am here asking all of these questions, and besides, I already have the PSX port, or shall I say I burned it to a CD and I play using the swap method. Besides, I actually want to own the PCB because it has much better visuals and sound quality than the port.

Did you try playing the port on a CRT in TATE? I've played the port in my EGRET II and I have the PCB, and while it's been a while since I ran the port, I don't remember it looking any worse than the PCB. I have the newer hardware PCB too, so the port's sound is way better.

I say, get a nice CRT first and play the port, then if that's still not "good enough", get yourself a nice supergun for that CRT as a second step. Superguns will always be around, CRTs won't.

Actually, I haven't tried that, I'll look into it. Also, that's why I'm looking for the older hardware board, the one with good sound quality, because the instruments in the music sound stronger and the explosions have a louder, more crunchy bass sound that the port lacks.

[panzeroceania]

Think of an arcade pbc as a console motherboard without a case, without a power supply, without controller ports, and without a video encoder.

This is what a supergun provides, they're usually expensive but they are generally professional and convenient.

If you have an rgb capable monitor you can make a cable to plug the pcb directly into the monitor.

If you are hardcore enough to get a pcb, I'd generally also suggest investing in an arcade stick and buttons, but you can set it up to work with your favorite kind of controller, it just takes more work. At the end of the day it all comes down to how much time and money you're willing to spend.

How much money are you willing to spend on a project like this, and are you willing to do it yourself or do you want to buy a pre-built solution.

It sounds like you're looking for a semi low hassle solution and to be frank there isn't really one. As others have mentioned you can always play the ports. For me if you're going to invest in pcbs, should also invest in an rgb monitor and arcade stick