B&O MX4/6/7000 - troubleshooting and general information

[Skykid]

Okay, I've got the picture as flat as I can. I started by pulling in the Horizontal and Vertical amplitude so you can see the edges of the image within the screen, and flattened them out so they look as follows (the only image I could use is through RF for tuning, since service mode is only accessible within the TV, so the first shot is RF, and the second is an RGB test screen:





It's not 100% straight, but really as close as I've managed to get. blizzz's post was very helpful in tuning. I'd like the bottom right corner to be a little flatter, but if I pull it in using east and west corner the top starts to go out. After expanding the image to meet the edges of the screen, again, it starts to deform a little, so I spent ages trying to even it out and also had to go into the game (Strider 2) to see how it looked versus the test screen. In it's final state it looks like this:





My settings ended up as:

Hfq 26
Hph 51
Ham 29
Vam 13
Vsc 11
Vsh 24
Vli 19
EWc 16
EWp 26
EWt 45

So some of these match blizzz's exactly, others not so much. Every TV is slightly different of course, and I'm sure I could tweak it even more, but it looks okay currently.

The biggest kicker?

Using one game's test screen does not equal a centred image for all. Just because this one looks right, the next one can look totally different. Where the happy medium is, I don't know (I don't think there is one, to be honest).

Here's Hacha Mecha Fighter which is far smaller than the extremities of the screen:



And R-Type Leo, which is better, but shifted to the left, so the '1P' is slighty cut off and there's about 1.5 cm of dead space on the right:



I'll keep toying to try to find that happy medium, but eventually I'll give up going into service mode. But as a final synopsis, the hype around the set is justified to a degree - the picture is quite beautiful, the colour balancing is gorgeous and the audio amazing. I know there's some criticism about the vibrancy of the screen, but I don't feel I need to remove the plexiglass - I think it looks good enough as it is. Service mode is an absolute requirement, which, if you have my model, is going to be too much work for some people, and that's a negative - but on the whole the small rear and beautiful styling really make this a designer crt.

And of course, the de-interlace mode is the icing on the cake, which brings me on to...

@ FAGIN!

I press "Picture" then "Shift 7" and the display moves ever so slightly - about 1 pixel - either or up or down each time I press the combination. I see absolutely zero difference in the display, and I've had my nose up to it. Matt said it de-interlaces with any input source, and I've try humble RF and RGB so far. No recourse to a 360 scart lead.

So how does this work exactly, does it need to be a 480p signal to make a difference, or am I just doing it wrong?

[Fudoh]

So how does this work exactly

obviously you need a 480i input signal.

[fagin]

What "he" said.

For any deinterlace function to work, you need an interlaced signal to deinterlace. Ergo in this situation a 480i signal is needed.

Plugging that Gamecube in will do nicely.

[Skykid]

So how does this work exactly

obviously you need a 480i input signal.

My naivety exposed again!

I'll see if I can rustle up something 480i related. The Gamecube... not sure what my bro's packing for that, doesn't look like it's been turned on in a while. Will 480i still carry through composite into a scart block adaptor, or does it need to be true RGB?

I'm not too smart about this stuff, apologies.

[blizzz]

Will 480i still carry through composite into a scart block adaptor, or does it need to be true RGB?

Yep, it does. But shame on your brother if he doesn't use RGB

Btw, I personally don't bother with the deinterlacing on the B&O. It's not really that great, certainly not like native 240p.

[Fudoh]

composite is fine. Dot crawl and cross color effects will make it a little harder to see the difference, but if you know how interlaced material looks like compared to progressive sources, you'll see the difference right away.

[Skykid]

Will 480i still carry through composite into a scart block adaptor, or does it need to be true RGB?

Yep, it does. But shame on your brother if he doesn't use RGB

Btw, I personally don't bother with the deinterlacing on the B&O. It's not really that great, certainly not like native 240p.

Cool thanks all. I'd like to give it a shot anyway, very neat feature, and it certainly looked interesting on Matt's vid of Daiffukatsu.

My brother isn't anywhere near as anal about gaming setups, he just buys and plays. Miss those simple days!

[Fuzzyness]

I got a Beovision MX6000 but I have no luck getting onto AV / Getting my consoles to show up automatically

I don't have the original remote but ive used a OneForAll and its responding, the AV button doesnt work at all..the menu button works but only shows Setup and Program List

On Setup there is

Timer Sound: On/Off
Power Link : On/Off

AV 1: V.Tape-1 / V.Tape-1 B&O
AV2 : V.Aux / V.Tape 2 B&O / V.Tape 2 / CDV / Decoder / Expander
S-VHS: On/OFF

Tried a few different consoles and using different scart boxes, had no luck at all getting any of my consoles to show / get it onto AV


sigh.. do I need to get the official remote?


Ok someone lent me their beovision remote but the AV button does nothing, I can access tuning and the picture setting now though :/ still no luck finding my game signal at all or getting onto the AV channel

[Skykid]

Hey Fuzzy,

The AV button doesn't do anything on the Beo remote. When you go into setup and program the AV sockets to V.tape 1 and V.tape 2, you need to then press the buttons marked V.tape on the remote rather than AV.

I'm not sure what the corresponding button would be on a universal remote, but I'd recommend pressing 'shift' (if there's an equivalent) and then pressing a button - and then repeating for the whole thing.

But... buying universal remotes for MX4000's is pretty much like throwing money away in my experience, unless you're really lucky. If you can't get/afford a Beo 1000 or Beo4 remote, you used to be able to find pre-programmed remotes on eBay that are designed specifically for the set.

[Skykid]

Further tech questions (for Fudoh and fagin, most probably!)

I got the 360 plugged into the MX4000 via composite into a scart block adaptor. The picture is beautiful. I also managed to de-interlace, which is a superb improvement imo. However, got some queries for you:


1: Does de-interlacing reduce input lag even further? Reason being we were playing SFIV and it felt slightly slow to me, so I de-interlaced and it suddenly seemed quick and a lot more responsive. But... I didn't think a crt had any lag in the first place at 480i, so I'm not sure why there was any noticeable difference. Fill me in on the science!

2: This is weird: the 360 composite into scart adaptor is perfect, but when I put the SNES composite into the set through the same adaptor, the picture is distorted and rolling all over the place. Any idea why it doesn't respond in the same way?

3: The most nigglesome thing is why composite is so much more beautiful in terms of vibrancy, colour, and all round brightness than RGB? The colour setting can't be adjusted in RGB, and all tones seem fixed. The only things I can adjust are brightness and contrast to make the image a little better. But why is RGB generally more drab, dull and washed out than composite? RGB is really the best quality for SD gaming in my experience, but the behaviour of this set seems strange - it's like it won't let RGB be all that it can be!
Are there any internal adjustments I can make to get around this?

Thanks for the help guys. One never stops learning.

[blizzz]

Composite and S-Video are over saturated on the MX4000. You can blame the contrast screen for the dull RGB look. If you remove it, it will be much more vibrant.

For the SNES issue, try playing around with Hfq in the service menu.

[Skykid]

Composite and S-Video are over saturated on the MX4000. You can blame the contrast screen for the dull RGB look. If you remove it, it will be much more vibrant.

For the SNES issue, try playing around with Hfq in the service menu.

They are? Perhaps... they looked pretty stunning to me though, since RGB is so much less vibrant.

I did toy with the frequency already, pushed it one way and then the other. I could do a little more: are you sure that's the problem? (Have you managed the same setup on your own set?)

As for the contrast screen, are you sure RGB's going to look that much improved with it off? I can imagine it being more vivid, but the range is so limited currently.

[Fudoh]

1) I can't imagine. The set certainly does not have a field or frame buffer, so all the "deinterlacing" does, is remove the line offset from every 2nd field to make them appear on the same height.

2) PAL60 problem ?

3) I've seen this on low-end tubes, where RGB disables the aperture/sharpness controls and in result looks rather lame to composite or s-video...

[Skykid]

1) I can't imagine. The set certainly does not have a field or frame buffer, so all the "deinterlacing" does, is remove the line offset from every 2nd field to make them appear on the same height.

2) PAL60 problem ?

3) I've seen this on low-end tubes, where RGB disables the aperture/sharpness controls and in result looks rather lame to composite or s-video...

1) Must just be my imagination! I seemed to up my SFIV game straight after. The magic of scanlines.

2) Don't think so, the 360 is PAL 60 with no probs, and when I switch the Snes to 50hz the screen kind of conks out entirely. Will fiddle more with the frequency.

3) That's pretty sucky. So this is a low-end tube then? I know it's a Philips, but the general quality seems excellent - just not so colourful outside of composite (haven't tried S-Video.)

[blizzz]

2) Don't think so, the 360 is PAL 60 with no probs, and when I switch the Snes to 50hz the screen kind of conks out entirely. Will fiddle more with the frequency.

3) That's pretty sucky. So this is a low-end tube then? I know it's a Philips, but the general quality seems excellent - just not so colourful outside of composite (haven't tried S-Video.)

2) Now that I think about it, I had the same effect when the Scart block wasn't 100% plugged in. I know that sounds stupid, but did you try plugging it in again? A PAL SNES should work with any method (rf, composite, s-video, rgb).

3) S-Video looks the same as composite color wise. If you're curious, I would recommend that you take off the right plastic part and slide out the contrast screen.

MX4000 with partially slid out contrast screen. On the left it looks more vivid.

Some pics of the side piece: pic1 pic2 pic3
Just target that spot and push a bit until it pops out.

[Drachenherz]

Ah, I finally, finally set up my game room in my new home (moved beginning of august ito an old (1795!!!!!) house and had to lead ma attention to more important things (living room(s), bedroom etc.)

Thanks guys! The last couple of post have been massively helpful.

Skykid, I used your settings as a starting point, as I was fiddling with the default settings when I got my set, without noting the default settings my set came with... Now I got a good base to calibrate my set specifically.

Blizzz: thanks for the pics of the smoke screen coming of. That is the next think I intend to do with my set, your guide comes just at the perfect time.

Pics will follow when I can spare some time.

[fagin]

Skykid,
And you wonder why I prefer Sony Trinitrons!

Sorry... but that's about as helpful as I'm going to get, especially when your making reference to anything composhite related.

[Skykid]

Blizzz, great shots dude, definitely going to try to remove the smoke screen today using your info. Can see how much of a difference it makes now!

My Scarts are plugged in fully, it's just that scart appears naturally less vivid than composite, but I think the screen removal should help.

Drach, regarding my geometry, it's impossible to get perfect across multiple systems. My settings worked ok for the Supergun for instance, but the FM Towns image tends to sit small within its own black border ratio and has slightly curved edges, while Blizzz's settings worked better on other stuff like the SNES etc.

I fixed the screen rolling prob I had with the SNES btw... plugged it into the other scart socket and it worked fine! Weird the different sockets seem to handle things differently.

Skykid,
And you wonder why I prefer Sony Trinitrons!

Sorry... but that's about as helpful as I'm going to get, especially when your making reference to anything composhite related.

Trinitrons are sex, but this isn't far off. Form factor is a plus point too. Honestly, I've never seen composite look so good.

[Skykid]

Wow, so the screen came off right before my head! What a difference, the SNES through RGB is absolutely beautiful. Thumbs down to B&O for a service mode the average human can't get to and a contrast screen that mutes the tones of a very impressive CRT, but thumbs up for such an immaculate display.

These shots don't do it justice I'm sure, but I snapped some turbo without contrast screen for the thread record:





And this is composite 360 de-interlaced:



Now, more questions!

When you use S-Video, how do you get sound? There are no audio sockets?

Also, for the record, even though it has no effect on RGB, what are your colour settings in service mode (the RGB stuff.) I've got all mine set to 50 currently.

[blizzz]

When you use S-Video, how do you get sound? There are no audio sockets?

You use a Scart adapter for the audio.

[Skykid]

When you use S-Video, how do you get sound? There are no audio sockets?

You use a Scart adapter for the audio.

Sweet, didn't know you could combine like that. Will get the FM Towns going in S-video then for a slightly cleaner image. Much thanks.

[Jelly]

Have any one of you gotten the 480i to 240p deinterlacing to work on a MX8000 model? I'm following the instructions in the futurematt5 video, but I seem to have a different system menu.

Silly, I still havn't gotten the instructions for the 480i to 240p deinterlacing to work on the MX8000 now, half a year later, despite trying on several occasions with different consoles.
Can anyone confirm that it works on the MX8000? The menu seems to be different from the older models.

[Skykid]

Have any one of you gotten the 480i to 240p deinterlacing to work on a MX8000 model? I'm following the instructions in the futurematt5 video, but I seem to have a different system menu.

Silly, I still havn't gotten the instructions for the 480i to 240p deinterlacing to work on the MX8000 now, half a year later, despite trying on several occasions with different consoles.
Can anyone confirm that it works on the MX8000? The menu seems to be different from the older models.

For me, pressing 'picture','shift','7' in that order does the trick.

[Skykid]

Grahh!

I'm pretty sure my B&O has some crappy geometry issues that seem largely unfixable by tweaking the service mode - there simply aren't enough options in there. Compared to Blizzz's image, where his pincushion blocks seem to be a similar size on the outside edge as the inside, my screen contracts at the edges and has a slight sag in the middle, as if concave, and makes the image appear to stretch as it pulls away from either side.

On games with 3D backgrounds (like Strider 2) it's impossible to notice. Shmup backgrounds seem to scroll too slowly to make it apparent too, but sidescrolling platformers really show up the issue. Here's a pic highlighting the areas I've noted and how they're affected:



RED BLOCKS - Edges of screen contract. Pincushion blocks slightly thinner in width than centre. Image is pulled toward either edge of the screen in motion.

BLUE BLOCKS - Centre of screen almost slightly concave. After pulling away from contraction on edges of screen, it appears to stretch and 'wave' into the middle and then out again on the other side.

GREEN WAVE - To give an impression of how the image waves when moving.

YELLOW BLOCK - Pincushion contraction also at the bottom of the screen, makes the image appear to shorten and 'suck' down on vertical scrollers like Undeadline.

Obviously this is exaggerated to highlight how it looks (and the pic is an older one). It's not something you see on a static image or at first glance, you have to have the image going at a steady and average pace to see it, but that's the general gist.

I didn't notice any of this until I took the contrast screen off and played a few sidescrollers on the SNES! Try as I might, I can't seem to fix it much, but when the screen scrolls there's an obvious wave going on: an undulation that contracts on either edge of the screen, with a slight downward bowing in the centre that makes it roll (well, wave) while in motion. If you pay attention to anything except your character, it's quite easy to see through RGB.

Service mode options, parabola, east and west corners etc, just can't even out the centre sag. If I could get that from its slight concave to a slight convex, that would be enough, since the contraction of the edges wouldn't be so apparent if they didn't roll into the centre.

As a consumer set, I suppose these sorts of things are largely unfixable, but any suggestions? Magnets? Chassis pots?

Anyone else notice anything like this on an MX4000?

I took some video of Xmen: Mutant Apocalypse that I can post later perhaps, but I think this should be clear enough.

[22point8]

Isn't that capcom grid 384x224p, making it wider than standard? I think it was done so that they could make more impressive artwork when it was squashed to fit a 4:3 display. You could try reducing the picture size, get the geometry as good as possible, then increase the size and tweak it again. Or the opposite make the picture too big, do the geometry then reduce it and tweak.

[Jelly]

Have any one of you gotten the 480i to 240p deinterlacing to work on a MX8000 model? I'm following the instructions in the futurematt5 video, but I seem to have a different system menu.

Silly, I still havn't gotten the instructions for the 480i to 240p deinterlacing to work on the MX8000 now, half a year later, despite trying on several occasions with different consoles.
Can anyone confirm that it works on the MX8000? The menu seems to be different from the older models.

For me, pressing 'picture','shift','7' in that order does the trick.

Thanks, it doesn't seem to work for me. I've tried variations of the GO, shift and 7 in both the picture menu, options menu, with different AV ports and in the TV mode, with no success.
Perhaps it's because the menu is different on the MX8000 compared to the MX7000 videos I've seen.
My menu doesn't seem to be an overlay menu like yours, it only displays the picture when I'm in the picture mode as shown in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swVGjQBFrAA

Anyone with any ideas?

[Skykid]

Isn't that capcom grid 384x224p, making it wider than standard? I think it was done so that they could make more impressive artwork when it was squashed to fit a 4:3 display. You could try reducing the picture size, get the geometry as good as possible, then increase the size and tweak it again. Or the opposite make the picture too big, do the geometry then reduce it and tweak.

Making the image small and tweaking is usually how I do it. Even when small, it's impossible to solve certain aspects of the geometry, but I can usually get the edges mostly square (the bottom right corner is completely stubborn and will not get in line, but there's nothing I can do to tweak it without putting the rest out.)

Sadly, on expanding I still get the probs outlined above. I'm probably being OCD to an extent, as lots of games look great, but those SNES sidescrollers are just painful if you focus on the backgrounds.

If anyone knows anything about this (or has similar probs) I'd be interested to hear.

[blizzz]

It's pretty much the same for me. You can see that the squares on the right border are a lot smaller than those in the middle. This was completely normal back then and even though it might be annoying compared to a LCD, you shouldn't pay too much attention to it.

[Skykid]

It's pretty much the same for me. You can see that the squares on the right border are a lot smaller than those in the middle. This was completely normal back then and even though it might be annoying compared to a LCD, you shouldn't pay too much attention to it.

I guess I've been out of touch with CRT's for a while - but that said, can you actually see a warping of the scrolling background on say, the Yoshi's Island you had on earlier? That's a good candidate, and if it were on my set I'd see the periphery contractions and mid-screen expansions on that game as the screen scrolled along (if I'm focussing on the background of course, but it becomes a little annoying when you're trying not to focus on it!)

Thanks blizzz!

[fagin]

Skykid,
You have some serious OCD man!

Your test grid does not indicate you're getting a pinch effect in the middle. Either way you have no way of correcting that. I personally go for geometry that is even across the screen and I don't follow the curvature to achieve that. I play "head on" so set geometry to reflect that position. Pinching can be caused by pincushion (which on pro gear you can alter both the top/bottom and sides separately). If you're getting compression (which again your grid does not dictate to any great level, based on your picture) you're stuck with it in reality. Minor tweaks to compression may be achieved with screen position and vert / hori holds - it's normally about compromise though.

Step away.... stop fiddling and get playing games!

You do appear to have slight rotation (but that could be the camera angle). You could adjust this by turning the yoke..... but I wouldn't be bothering personally.