PVM's and monitors

[andykara2003]

Hi All -

I have a question that I have been pondering for a while........

I'm looking at possibly purchasing a brand new PVM 20M2E

I've read & researched quite extensively on the net about PVM's and other arcade/broadcast monitors & TV's. I seem to be in the minority that think that PVM's & other monitors of this type have too pronounced scanlines and too fine a dot pitch to produce a picture that is bright and authentic - like the CRT's we used to use with our consoles in the 80's/90's. I want to find a TV for my N64. I've been put off monitors a bit as I feel that a TV feels more authentic for my N64. Also, the picture is pretty blurry on this console & I think that a monitor that is very sharp with strong scanlines would just make the picture look worse....

I have a Sony trinitron (from the UK so it has RGB scart - my N64 is RGB modded too) I've always loved these TV's but can't seem to find one with good geometry - I am waiting for a new one to pop up on eBay. I've heard, though, that even these Sony's TV's have more pronounced scanlines than other TV's -

Does anyone know of any CRT TV's of this size that are as high quality as the Sony that has less pronounced scanlines?

My problem is that I really like a 25 inch screen for the immersion but at 25 inches, the scanlines are quite obvious on my Sony KV-25X5U......

[Fudoh]

I seem to be in the minority that think that PVM's & other monitors of this type have too pronounced scanlines

no, you're not. It's like playing 15khz PCBs on a Egret3/Atomiswave tri-sync chassis.

[andykara2003]

Thanks for your reply Fudoh - you are exactly the person who I would have liked to have answer this post..

As to your answer - Am I not correct in saying that you tend to prefer the strongly scanlined look - I see you really like the BVM's..

Also, do you have any recommendations for a softly scanlined 25 inch TV/monitor for my N64 (Softer even than the Sony trinitron consumer TV's)?

[Fudoh]

Am I not correct in saying that you tend to prefer the strongly scanlined look - I see you really like the BVM's..

not at all. That's about the only thing I dislike about the professional monitor sets.

The Trinitrons always were on the heavier side already, at least the later ones in the 90s. You should go for more curved tube. I don't know what's available in your area. Blaupunkt, Loewe, Metz would be my choices here in Germany. They should have a more pleasing scanline appearance.

[andykara2003]

Thanks for that Fudoh - I've heard that some of the Loewes are even better than the sony trinitrons - do you think that they would have softer scanlines also?

Also, I understand what you mean about getting a curved rather than flat screen version - as they would be non digital, have better geometry etc. Do you have an idea which model ranges to go for in these sets?

Thanks again

[andykara2003]

Sorry Fudoh - If I may clarify - are you saying that the Loewes, Blaupunkts etc would have less obvious scanlines than the Sony trinitrons (assuming they are the same size)?

[Fudoh]

From what I remember from back in the days, yes - those sets should have less pronounced scanlines.

No idea about particular models, sorry. I guess you just have to pick a few manufacturers and browse some european eBay sites to get an idea about the available models. By checking for online manuals or service manuals you can usually pretty narrow it down pretty good when those sets have been released.

[andykara2003]

That's fantastic, thanks - I think I'll look into Loewe as I've heard they're better than the Sonys. I think I've also read that the pronounced scanlines on the Sonys are due to the trinitron manufacture process - Does that sound right to you?

If so, that rules out the mitsubishi as their post 1992 models are trinitron, so Loewe it is..

[Overkill]

Maybe you can give a check on this blog, it's from a guy who test several European CRT tv sets http://scarthunter.blogspot.pt/

[andykara2003]

Wow thanks overkill - this is an amazing source of information

[rugdoctor]

subscribe to this guy: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBJRCv0tNMQ2rnCm7VKYOkA He takes the full hands on approach, including opening up the beasts!

[andykara2003]

Thanks rugdoctor, this guy's awesome too - subscribed

[Fudoh]

Seeing all those wonderful CRTs sitting there on the shelves and not being used nearly hurts - nearly as bad as sealed game collecting

[rugdoctor]

I chatted to him a few times and he really really loves his crts.

[andykara2003]

Just pm'd him. I feel the need to bag a few great condition low usage old CRT's before they get incredibly rare - which won't be too far off I think....

[andykara2003]

So I've sussed out a couple more things:

Scart hunter says the Loewe e3000 chassis are amazing but problematic and are missing some lines of resolution (233 lines only in NTSC mode)

He says that possibly the best consumer CRT for retro stuff is the Blaupunkt IS 70-101 VT M (with a Grundig CUC 6851 chassis)

These appear to be very hard to find but incredible quality.

Does anyone know of alternative Blaupunkts that might have a similar quality? (and therefore might be easier to find)

Cheers

[Fudoh]

Does anyone know of alternative Blaupunkts that might have a similar quality?

probably most in the same size and from the same era.

(233 lines only in NTSC mode)

this is something I would not worry about, since you usually apply some overscan on CRTs anway and most systems run at 224p instead of the full 240p res.

[andykara2003]

Thanks for that Fudoh - I think these are early to mid 90's - I'll do some research. The guy found one in practically mint condition, the photos are incredible.

You're right - I'm using it for N64 so the loewe's 233 lines are only 7 less than the N64's resolution.

By the way, do you know of a cheap external scart box that will allow me to adjust the horizontal shift with a pot? My Sony can't totally correct my RGB shift from the service menu. I can only get it to within an inch. I could just widen the picture but that just lowers resolution & I like a centered picture

[andykara2003]

Actually what would be great to have would be an external rgb based box (for consoles so scart or similar non-VGA) that could adjust both horizontal and vertical positions and width/height. It would be great for on the fly adjustments on the older sets when using different consoles & games. Does anyone know of such a box?

[Fudoh]

For positioning: Extron RGB 302, 304, 201, 203. They require clean sync though. If you just require a horizontal shift, there are more alternatives.

http://scarthunter.blogspot.pt/2013/05/ ... xtron.html

Width adjustment is complicated and height adjustment is impossible.

[andykara2003]

Thanks v. much for that. I had checked out scarthunter's page on the 201 & looked at the other models on extron's website but by the look of it they all have a VGA - type input. The BNC outputs are no problem as I can get BNC-scart cables but I don't think the inputs of these units are for plain old RGB. The scarthunter guy was using it with his PC for Mame I think.

Am I missing something here? I'm not an expert in the least. The specs say the input is for RGBHV, RGBS, RGsB, RsGsBs signals - I'm not sure my RGB modded N64 would comply with that.

I hope I'm wrong about this as I'll definitely get one if they'll work...

[Fudoh]

Your N64 outputs RGBs, but with composite video for sync. To utilize an Extron witha that you'd need a Sync Strike to adapt from Scart to HD15 and to clean the sync signal.

[andykara2003]

Wow that's amazing, cheers Fudoh. I just checked it out on the Arcadeforge site. I think I would just need a standard VGA cable to connect the 2 together and some BNC to scart leads on the output of the extron. A bit of a complicated route but Brilliant if it works well -

May I ask, though, what the other alternatives you mentioned are for just altering the horizontal shift? This might end up being a more practical route...

[Fudoh]

Quite similar. I meant there are more Extron interfaces to choose from when you just require horizontal shifting. Many of the $20 units already have this.

[andykara2003]

Ahh thanks - I guess a simple RGB scart in, RGB scart out unit for horizontal shift is out of the question then... Your earlier suggestions seem to be the way then - very much appreciated!

I also have decided to look for a Loewe CRT TV with e3000 chassis. They seem to be more common than the Blaupunkts, Metz etc.

As far as I know, the calida, contur & profil types have the e3000 chassis but there may be more. I'm trying to filter through which are the high end models but I like the look of the Calida best from a style standpoint - it hasnt got the speakers each side of the screen, so is about 3/4 of the width of the others. The only thing I'm worried about is if you'd have to open the back to do width/height/geometry alignments. I'd much rather be able to do this from a service menu but I'm not sure if these are too old for that. More research, I think!

[Fudoh]

Ahh thanks - I guess a simple RGB scart in, RGB scart out unit for horizontal shift is out of the question then...

not at all. That would be Moosmann's Scart shifter for example. But he hasn't built any in many many years and it's next to impossible to find them.

[andykara2003]

Thanks again - its good to know people have done it - I just found the schematic for that online but its a bit complex for me to build. I'll keep a lookout for other scart shift units (if there are any) as well as the moosmann ones.

I'm drawing a bit of a blank with the Loewes - Do you know the best method of research to find out which model numbers mean what? I'm looking to sift out the better/top of the range models for different years and also the point at which 100hz & other processing came in so I can rule those out - but the info is scarce out there. So far the best thing I can think of is to download as many service manuals as possible & cross reference them but they often cost money, which is fine for the odd one or two but could get expensive!....

[andykara2003]

Paid a few quid & got a comprehensive list of models - I'm on my way I think

Having identified all the e3000 chassis models (the best for this purpose), the more time consuming and difficult task is going to be sorting the models according to time of release and feature set....

[Paradroid]

Hi Andy,

Sorry I didn't comment earlier...

Firstly, nice work in finding a "brand new" Sony PVM 20M2E! Pretty rare to find any "brand new" CRTs these days...

I'm with you in regards to PVMs. I know they have awesome build quality but they don't look "right" to me. A consumer TV gets me closer to that "classic" arcade look I know from my days in the arcades.

Also, I can concur that not all Sonys have great geometry. The KV-C27s I've had area built to amazing specs but I've never seen the geometry perfect on them. Loewes and Grundigs have gotten far closer for me.

Certainly the Blaupunkt/Grundig/Siemens sets have less pronounced scanlines. There is more bleed on bright colors while darker colors have more distinct scanlines. This effect is very pleasing to my eye.

Now, the good thing about an Extron unit is that you can control the look of the scanlines as well as the H and V positioning. The "Boost" control can overdrive the RGB input and create a more saturated, softer look. You can then compensate the brightness and contrast using your TV's controls. Highly recommended!

Next, the E3000 sounds like a good choice for your N64. If you're planning on 224+ lines, I would recommend the C9003 chassis. It will do 256 lines. Older and harder to find though.

Lastly, don't pay for anymore Service Manuals! I have stacks and can help you out there... Also, there are many sites that have comprehensive Grundig/Loewe/Sony SMs for free. Check the links section on my blog.

Also, email for a special list with Loewe model to chassis match ups. I use it all the time in the hunt... I also have a Grundig/Blaupunkt/Siemens chart.

[Stan]

...Now, the good thing about an Extron unit is that you can control the look of the scanlines as well as the H and V positioning. The "Boost" control can overdrive the RGB input and create a more saturated, softer look. You can then compensate the brightness and contrast using your TV's controls. Highly recommended!
...

Which Extron unit has these features?