Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[jdubs]

possible, if you have a true analogue chassis that might work. Possibly a nice PC CRT as well, but the Sony BVM (if they do 31khz like the D or A series) are geared towards the few standard broadcast refresh rates.

Yeah, definitely. Some PC CRT monitors can / should be able to do it:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... 352.0.html

I'd really just like to have just one monitor, though, capable of 15khz on up.

I sent an e-mail to the Sony Pro folks to see if they can comment on it for the 20E1 / F1. Would be awesome if so.

-Jim

[Svovl]

Hi,
I was going through some old stuff in my parents basement today and found the monitor from our first PC (an Atari branded 8088).
The computer had an EGA based graphics card running 16 colors, and the monitor is a Philips CM9043.
Would it be possible to hook this monitor up with a console through RGB?

I didn't get a chance to take a picture of it, but I found (a bit poor) one on the internet:


And it has one of these connectors:

[trap15]

EGA is a digital signal over 6 pins (1 per color bit), so (sadly) no.

[fogueman]

Hi guys, i´ve been reading about your love for PVM monitors and I can get a Sony Pvm 2130qm nearby, for 75 euro. Is that a good deal?

I don´t now if I should get it because I just bought the framemeister and i´m more than happy with it, but i´m a serious retro gamer and they seem the scanline nirvana. I also happen to own a trinitron 25 crt tv!

[kamiboy]

That is a good price. Also, my personal opinion, but once you go CRT you wont want to go back.

[Jelly]

Und here we go!

Inspired by this thread, despite several people advicing me not to, I ended up finally ordering and now receiving a Sony BVM-20F1E. First impression -- this thing is a monster, how will I make it blend into my living room?

But all doubt went away once I got Battle Garegga running in TATE mode. Gorgeous.

If I can spend $200 on making one of my favorite interests a little more enjoyable, why shouldn't I?

[shadowman]

I recently snatched a BVM D32E1WU and have been trying out a bunch of consoles the last few days. SNES, Playstation, Genesis, RGB modded N64, Jaguar, RGB modded 3DO, AV modded 2600, AV modded Odyssey 2, and Xbox all work fine. Saturn works but there is some sort of wavy pattern in the picture that's annoying.

However I have a few consoles that just don't work right.

RGB modded PC Engine Duo




RGB modded SuperGrafx




This same effect happens with the Sega Master System and also AV modded 7800, Colecovision and Intellivision consoles. Anyone have an idea what causes this?

[kamiboy]

There is some sort of option that might fix that. It sounded something like the tracking option found on old VCRs. Try to find said option and give it a go, might do the trick.

[Fudoh]

On the D32 the AFC option should take care of this.

[kamiboy]

Yeah, AFC, that is the one.

[shadowman]

I couldn't find anything labeled AFC in the menus. However, in the extended menu there is a VCR mode option. Setting that to 'on' fixed the problem! I assume that's the same setting you guys were talking about. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

[Fudoh]

Oh, you might be right. The function is called AFC on the 20" models, not the 32" ones. But anyway, if VCR fixes your problem, then that's the way to go

[burgerkingdiamond]

Fudoh or anyone else thats interested, I have a bvm remote control unit that I dont need. Pm me if your interested.

[burgerkingdiamond]

Don't make me try and sell this remote on ebay. I picked it up because I snagged a BVM in Japan while visiting Rancor for 2000Y. Unfortunately we couldn't get it shipped home. Now I have this remote.

[philexile]

I had this same issue with my 32" BVM. When you play PCE for a while, does the screen shake very slightly? I've noticed this happening seemingly at random – but only with the PCE and only on my 32" BVM. The 20" doesn't need VCR (AFC) mode activated and is completely stable. I guess the later BVM models were more picky.

I couldn't find anything labeled AFC in the menus. However, in the extended menu there is a VCR mode option. Setting that to 'on' fixed the problem! I assume that's the same setting you guys were talking about. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

[shadowman]

I haven't noticed any shakiness with the PCE yet, but I have experienced this with the SuperGrafx.

[BubbaMc]

Fudoh or anyone else thats interested, I have a bvm remote control unit that I dont need. Pm me if your interested.

PM Sent.

[ExitPlanetDust]

PVM get!

Some mild convergence issues and the image is a bit warm, but the geometry is perfect. I just need to find a way to dial it in. It's a 14n2u.

[mastercello]

Sony PVM 1450QM - with Pana Custom SG connected

[22point8]

I thought I might have been imagining it, but your picture confirms it, my 1454qm screen looks very rectangular like yours as does a 21 inch flat trinitron tv, but any 20 inch pvm/bvm model I've seen looks almost perfectly square, is there any reason for this?

[Fudoh]

you're imagining it Probably because you're used to see the 20 inchers in Yoko orientation. Seeing 3:4 in tate looks much narrower - in reality the aspect ratio is exactly the same.

[Jelly]

I'm sure this has been answered before, but can anyone point me into the direction of which would be the best solution for displaying 480i content (Wii, 360, PS2, PS3) to 240p on a BVM-20F1E? Preferably something that works with my RGB SCART cables.

[Thamiel]

Bloke selling this has another, letting it go for $35. Thinking it's too small but might work nicely as a desk monitor for close range playing. Can't find much info on it though, worth the bother?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/261241994044?redirect=mobile

[angryswede]

PVM get!

Some mild convergence issues and the image is a bit warm, but the geometry is perfect. I just need to find a way to dial it in. It's a 14n2u.

I have the service manual as a pdf. PM me your email if you need it.

[SNES_is_the_Best]

The BVM's 240p picture is much closer to a digital LCD display with emulated scanlines than it is to classic CRT. If you take a look at the close up shots below, you'll see how fine the mask actually is. When playing my head was about 70cm (2 ft) from the screen and I couldn't see anything mask-related. Needless to say that the BVM is of course lag-free with all input signals.

Hey Fudoh......quick question.

I'm looking to pick up a calibrated PVM-20L5. I'll be playing mostly my SNES via RGB on it.

HOWEVER, the quote above leads me to believe that the 20L5 (800 lines) will be TOO sharp (I hate LCDs or Plasmas) and may actually hurt the graphically complex SNES games like Rareware games (DKC, KI, etc) and later Squaresoft games, and many more late-SNES titles that look almost like a painting (ie; Star Ocean).

To quote someone from digitpress

This monitor [Mitsubishi AM-3501R] is not quite as razor sharp as the PVM series. However, that is not necessarily a bad thing. You only want the display to be clear enough to display all the detail of the game. If the dot pitch of a monitor is too fine then the scanlines of the display will be too visible. You actually want a rather coarse pitch when it comes to 240p gaming. With a course pitch you get a fuller, brighter image. IMO the older the 15khz RGB capable monitor you can find, the better.

And then to quote a friend of mine

The 20L5 may be a little too sharp. If you look at something like Donkey Kong Country, you can see that it was designed with some natural smoothing in mind. If every pixel is too perfectly defined, the shading effects don't blend together, they don't work.

And thus this brings me to my question to you. I for one, want these games to look their best (I am currently using RGB-to-Component on my Wega), but overkill is not something I have in mind. (I kinda doubt that the RGB monitors that Nintendo developed their SNES games on were 800+ lines)

So..........do you think a 600 line PVM like the 20M2U would be better? (hopefully there's an option to soften the picture below 0 in its aperture -sharpness- control)

Your complete thoughts?

[Fudoh]

I don't think sharpness is the problem. The TVL rating basically tells you, if you'll be able to see the RGB dots (the actual mask) or not. On a 800 TVL set at 20" you hardly will. That's what gives the picture it's LCD quality. I don't think that a 600 TVL pro monitor is much "better" in this regard, especially if you're coming from a TV set with a rather course mask.

A real problem for many people are the scanlines though. Those are extremely pronounced on those sets and will usually look completely different compared to your usual TV set. As stupid as it sounds, but there's a good chance that you'll be better off with a much lower end set - possibly something like a 2130 or a 2044.

And no, there's no way to soften the picture. You can just disable the aperture function, but that's the standard setting anyway.

Check this posting for the appearing differences of scanlines on a BVM or high-end PVM versus a "classic" tube (arcade monitor in this case, but a 2130 or 2044 are more similar to that than to a BVM). http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 90#p893290

[22point8]

Outrun 2006 480i


Metal Slug (Retroarch Wii 304x224p)



240p test suite

This is the 2044qm with the focus tuned as best as possible (an easy adjustment to make, just find some small text like the numberplate in outrun 2006), but on the whole the 2044 is a bastard to adjust, there is no menu, you have to go inside to adjust the pots. The geometry pots aren't too bad, but H-Freq and V-Blank are underneath the electron gun. Screen volts is on the board attached to the gun, but on the side facing the screen so hard to get to, and the colour temperature controls on the front panel the green gain didn't work on mine (not sure if it's meant to), so again have to go inside, and the only green gain is for the 9300 colour temp (also adjusts the 6500), so you end up with a green mess 9300) and these pots are right next to the power supply bits so you get a bit of a suprising shock!

Anyway this is a 600TVL CRT with the super fine pitch tube and EBU phosphor, the 2130 just has fine pitch. I'd say the aperture grill is a quarter of the size per stripe compared to a regular triniton.

I wouldn't recommend the 2044, mines 23 years old and lacking a bit in brightness, no service menu, awkward to adjust.
I'd recommened a 1954qm or 2054qm, its the same quality (based on my 1454qm) but newer and still has the professional phosphors.

[SNES_is_the_Best]

I don't think sharpness is the problem. The TVL rating basically tells you, if you'll be able to see the RGB dots (the actual mask) or not. On a 800 TVL set at 20" you hardly will. That's what gives the picture it's LCD quality. I don't think that a 600 TVL pro monitor is much "better" in this regard, especially if you're coming from a TV set with a rather course mask.

A real problem for many people are the scanlines though. Those are extremely pronounced on those sets and will usually look completely different compared to your usual TV set. As stupid as it sounds, but there's a good chance that you'll be better off with a much lower end set - possibly something like a 2130 or a 2044.

And no, there's no way to soften the picture. You can just disable the aperture function, but that's the standard setting anyway.

Check this posting for the appearing differences of scanlines on a BVM or high-end PVM versus a "classic" tube (arcade monitor in this case, but a 2130 or 2044 are more similar to that than to a BVM). http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 90#p893290

Ok let me see if I can give you more info.....

I have 2 CRT's. My primary is a Sony Wega/Trinitron 20". I sit between 4 1/2 - 5 feet away from it. I keep the contrast low enough so that the whites do not cause the scanlines to disappear.

My other is a Hitachi Ultravision 60" RPTV (from 1998, so its SDTV). I sit 15 feet away from it. The scanlines are very pronouced on this monster and I don't have any issues with it as long as I keep the sharpness to a minimum. But its in a cold basement. Haha.

Nevertheless, I still prefer 20". And I would love to finally have a CRT with a sufficient power supply that prevent bending of white lines AND has RGB inputs (my 2 CRT's are YPbPr as I'm in the USA).

Now I'm sure you've seen how pronounced scanlines can be on a big RPTV that isn't HD. Now its possible that the scanlines may be even more noticeable on the PVM-20L5, or not....I'm not sure. But now that you have more info, and now that you know that I don't have a problem with the scanlines on the Hitachi, what are your thoughts? (the amount of input I can get from you or anyone else would be of great help because the calibrated PVM on eBay is $475 with shipping, and it has very high emissions - which equals very low hours of use according to the retired Sony tech who calibrated it)

[fagin]

SNES,
Instead of replying to your PM I'll post here - hope you don't mind.

Firstly..... if you're only looking at retro consoles why are you considering a L5? IMO that is way too much money for a PVM (especially in the US). Look elsewhere if you're not looking for 480p input (I have a feeling you are).

A 60" scanlined projection image will be totally different to an 800 TVL PVM - you can't compare.

The clarity and sharpness of a 800+ TVL is not to everyone's taste. At times when I use mine I do think "That just looks wrong!".

You'll probably be better off getting a cheaper and lower spec model - you can then see how you get on without blowing nearly $500!

[jdubs]

SNES, I'll reply here, too.

I have a very-low-hours 20L5 and I picked up for $225. Getting one in the U.S. for that price doesn't seem to be too tough.

Its a great CRT, imo. I really love the flexibility the multi-sync provides. I run a MAME PC, Dreamcast, and 360 into it via an Extron Emotia. Its switched, though, so I can run at 480p OR 240p. This is especially nice for the 360. Plus the L5 takes component input, so your Wii and / or PS2 are also plug and play.

I, in fact, love the scanlines as is! That said, I don't exactly have a ton of experience with other PVMs / BVMs.

If you can pick one up for a decent price, I say go for it...you can always resell it.

-Jim