Tropes vs Women in video games

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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Drum wrote:Calm down and re-read that post. You come off as a guy with serious issues.
Not very mature of you to resort to personal attacks without actually addressing what specifically you find objectionable about his post.
evil_ash_xero wrote:Dude, if we get to the point where rescuing a girl in a game is sexist, then we're fucked.

And how in the fuck is Ico sexist? Are you kidding me? Just because a woman isn't shown as strong and kick ass and all that shit, that means it's sexist?
I think the problem is people are so actively worried about sexism nowadays (good thing) that people are sometimes interpreting video games as being sexist in cases where it isn't really (bad thing). A lot of video games have male leads probably because, historically, it's been marketed as more of an activity for boys. Rather unfortunate, especially with something that has no reason be marketed to one gender over another compared to... I don't know, tampons or erectile dysfunction treatment or something, where obviously marketing should be aimed at a particular gender. If you're marketing a product to boys over girls I suppose it makes sense to have more boys playable (not that that's right), even though it seems incredibly silly to market something as broad and diverse as video games more to one gender than another. Thankfully that's slowly changing and female leads or more selectable character options are becoming a norm. I think the idea that all skill based sports need sex segregation too is a bit silly, but that's a whole issue unto itself.

At any rate, Ico isn't sexist. If Ico's plot stated that a boy was rescuing a girl because girls are weaklings or useless or whatever stupid, that would be sexist. It's not however; it's about a boy rescuing a girl who has been seriously fucked up and tortuired by a batshit crazy evil queen. It's no wonder Yorda is presented as being frail; anyone regardless of gender would be seriously messed up if they were in her position. Yorda actually is presented as being very useful considering she needs protection - she'll actively point you in the right direction towards objects, and is fairly helpful considering the game is all about protecting an AI character (which usually sucks).

RE4 was pretty good for tagalong AI, but then Ashley will specifically follow behind Leon or stay put when told to. Sure, she wasn't much good in a fight, but she was less annoying than the partner AI in RE5 which delights in using up precious healing items unnecessarily.

Don't get me wrong, I think games that used a generic princess or maiden being kidnapped as an excuse plot is really lazy and stupid game writing (tons of arcade games like Double Dragon did this). But I can't find anything sexist when the game actively fleshes out the characters and makes them important enough to be worth capturing.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by Zerst »

This ico discussion reminded me of a psychology course I took in college a number of years ago. Our textbooks had random clipart-style drawings of people related to whatever the chapter was about on every page. I think my professor spent half of the lecture time throughout the semester telling us to skip through pages of racially diverse images lining the borders of text (which we didn't go through in class, but were expected to read in our study time) to cherry pick the single ones where a person of minority ethnicity was in a "lower" position (such as an african-american nurse next to a caucasian doctor) and rant about how racist that image was.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Randorama wrote:I am actually surprised that she did not enroll in a graduate school, to outstanding academic success.
She's probably too busy making money for any academic things. She's certainly doing a good job of milking her unwarranted popularity for all it's worth.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by evil_ash_xero »

You know...It seems like we have two things that are being pushed as sexist right now.

First would be the helpless female thing. Which I think most people would find absurd. At least in a game like Super Mario Bros.. But it has seemed to find enough support in the journalist community.

The other would be the "objectifying of women" thing. This one is more understandable. At the same time, is it wrong to have a game like Dead Or Alive, every once in a while, that is marketed towards a certain audience? I mean, they're acting like these types of games are like RapeLay or something.

Are we at the point now where something "sexy" is "sexist"(I'm having flashbacks to Spinal Tap)?

I can at least understand that argument more, but is everything supposed to be for everyone? I mean, the people that critique these games act is if they should not exist, or should be changed dramatically to fit our new enlightened society.
I also find it to be...amusing...and typical..that this is being an "issue", whereas if anyone critiques violence in games, about 98 percent of gamers and journalists will piss on that argument.

So, it's bad if I see some girl with a huge rack in a game, than to shoot tons of people(even civilians) in game? If seeing sexualized images of women is damaging and teaching our kids the wrong thing.....letting people play games where you can beat hookers up, or rip someone's head off(GOW III) is not even worth thinking about?

Pretty typical American bullshit, if you ask me. Priorities are mixed up.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by Randorama »

BareknuckleRoo wrote:
She's probably too busy making money for any academic things. She's certainly doing a good job of milking her unwarranted popularity for all it's worth.
Oh, she will enrolls later on, when the fad is gone. Not a bad move.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by evil_ash_xero »

BareknuckleRoo wrote:
Randorama wrote:I am actually surprised that she did not enroll in a graduate school, to outstanding academic success.
She's probably too busy making money for any academic things. She's certainly doing a good job of milking her unwarranted popularity for all it's worth.

And there ya go. Critiquing a FPS, which is quite violent by nature, for being sexist. And that's as far as the critiquing will go. "Women need to slaughter people too!".
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

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evil_ash_xero wrote:I also find it to be...amusing...and typical..that this is being an "issue", whereas if anyone critiques violence in games, about 98 percent of gamers and journalists will piss on that argument
You say that as if you don't kill more people in a typical run of dodonpachi than any of these kids can kill in a COD match.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Zerst wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote:I also find it to be...amusing...and typical..that this is being an "issue", whereas if anyone critiques violence in games, about 98 percent of gamers and journalists will piss on that argument
You say that as if you don't kill more people in a typical run of dodonpachi than any of these kids can kill in a COD match.

Oh, I'm just saying it's hypocritical. I don't have major issues with violence in games. That being said, there is a difference between graphic violence and...you know, DDP violence. :wink:

I do have problems with how so many boys and young men only like violent games. I have a friend who tells me he only wants games where he's blowing people away, and complained how Vanquish should have had people as enemies, rather than robots.

And he's a conservative Christian. lol
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

evil_ash_xero wrote:Pretty typical American bullshit, if you ask me. Priorities are mixed up.
That reminds me of this South Park episode.
Zerst wrote:You say that as if you don't kill more people in a typical run of dodonpachi than any of these kids can kill in a COD match.
To be fair, Cave is a very interesting developer in that their games often depict the violence in a very negative light with respect to the plot. I posted something about this on that thread with all the guns. Donpachi and Dodonpachi have rather gut-wrenching second loop reveals that you've been killing your own comrades and your reasons for fighting were flawed and you're actually slaughtering your allies...
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by Randorama »

Speaking of which, "the inner enemy" is fairly solid trope in shumps, which goes back at least until R-type, off the top of my head.

I would add that anyone* who would study tropes in shmups would discover fairly interesting tropes in the genre, such as a very early tendency to portrait women pilots as either player (Proco and Tiat from Darius, Taito 1986). Whether this says anything about the arcade market, japanese approach to gender in fiction, etc. is anyone's guess, but at least the facts suggesting a different picture than Sarkaseesian's non-sense are out there.

Really, the key point that she fails to properly assess is that in progression ("story-based") games, where the programmer forces a linear progression on players, there has been a surge of old and ugly tropes to sell to a supposed demographic: dumb, mostly anglo frat jocks. Since this phenomenon does not apply to several historical gaming periods, emergent ("mechanics-based") games and non-frat markets, it cannot be said to be a key factor of how women are portrayed in videogames.

In other words, my bold claim is that if we actually look at the facts (!) and try to assess them in a sober, objective way (!!), the "vs. women tropes" are a problem within a type of games that cater to darwin awards waiting to happen. Then again, "humanities" are about having arguments and trying to force them on the facts, aren't they?

Oh, and just to be sure: there are like 5 different versions of feminism, and she does not really represent any of them. People, stfu on this, thank you.













*I plan to do that as a research side-project in the fall, in fact.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

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"There are no more feminists. There are women who want more for doing less, and men who want to go out with them and are willing to sacrifice their dignity for it."
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by Udderdude »

Not getting the "Ico is sexist" angle either, I think you could only come to that conclusion if you never played the game or understood the story. If Yorda was a captive prince who had no clue how to fight, or what to do, he'd be just as useless as female Yorda. Plus they're both kids, and they're both in a bad situation where they're barely managing to survive. Also Yorda is the only one who can unlock doors, etc.

In addition the main villian is a powerful female, so .. completely ignore that too, please!
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by Mortificator »

In fact, you find out near the end of the game that (SPOILERS) the shadow creatures you've been fighting the whole time are really the spirits of other boys with horns. The Queen has been having them brought to her castle for centuries and sealed up until they die.

A powerful woman imprisons dozens of males and one female... and females are the ones being portrayed as helpless?
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

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Bananamatic wrote:"There are no more feminists."
Not on Internet blogs at any rate. The articles I always see linked and sparking OMFGOUTRAGE are always these thoughtless articles written by pissed-off wannabe-academic college kids. :(

Don't trust anyone under 30 ;)
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by Drum »

BareknuckleRoo wrote:
Drum wrote:Calm down and re-read that post. You come off as a guy with serious issues.
Not very mature of you to resort to personal attacks without actually addressing what specifically you find objectionable about his post.
He flew off the handle and asked me why I thought the game was sexist when I specifically said I wouldn't call it outright sexist.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Drum wrote:He flew off the handle and asked me why I thought the game was sexist when I specifically said I wouldn't call it outright sexist.
Actually, what you said was:
Drum wrote:I'm not confident enough to say it's outright sexist, but it's hovering on a line there.
To which he responded:
evil_ash_xero wrote:And how in the fuck is Ico sexist? Are you kidding me? Just because a woman isn't shown as strong and kick ass and all that shit, that means it's sexist?
And then you tried to change the subject with a one-liner without addressing specifically how you think Ico is supposedly "hovering on a line" with respect to being sexist, let alone sexist whatsoever.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by Weak Boson »

I always thought the 'knight saves princess' story was one of the least offensive ones imaginable. It's a simple, totally sincere, no-questions asked justification for a quest. Perfect for a video game.

I also think she's missing a point that I doubt is mysterious to many of us: characters aren't always important in games. In fact in many of the games she talks about they don't matter at all. Not even a bit.

I mean if we can put aside our reservations about undressing little girls and enjoy the actual games is there anything to suggest that anyone's going to be at all influenced by the pernicious aspects of having a man save a woman?
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by Drum »

BareknuckleRoo wrote:
Drum wrote:He flew off the handle and asked me why I thought the game was sexist when I specifically said I wouldn't call it outright sexist.
Actually, what you said was:
Drum wrote:I'm not confident enough to say it's outright sexist, but it's hovering on a line there.
To which he responded:
evil_ash_xero wrote:And how in the fuck is Ico sexist? Are you kidding me? Just because a woman isn't shown as strong and kick ass and all that shit, that means it's sexist?
And then you tried to change the subject with a one-liner without addressing specifically how you think Ico is supposedly "hovering on a line" with respect to being sexist, let alone sexist whatsoever.
Are you fucking serious? Christ.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by evil_ash_xero »

My mistake there was kind of sounding angry at Drum. Where I am just basically angry at hearing about this all the time(and of course my permaban from NeoGAF), and it came out like I was angry at Drum.

So, let's not dwell on it guys.
Weak Boson wrote:I always thought the 'knight saves princess' story was one of the least offensive ones imaginable. It's a simple, totally sincere, no-questions asked justification for a quest. Perfect for a video game.

I also think she's missing a point that I doubt is mysterious to many of us: characters aren't always important in games. In fact in many of the games she talks about they don't matter at all. Not even a bit.

I mean if we can put aside our reservations about undressing little girls and enjoy the actual games is there anything to suggest that anyone's going to be at all influenced by the pernicious aspects of having a man save a woman?
When I think of a true gaming hero, I think of this guy:

Image

Just chillin' in the graveyard with your princess girlfriend(in your underwear might I add), and she gets swiped..by SATAN. So of course you're gonna save her. Ah, the good old days.

Now, too controversial for your game system!

Seriously though...what the heck is she looking at?
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by Bananamatic »

http://michaelurbina.com/101-everyday-w ... -to-women/

Why aren't you doing these things already?
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

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I get my daily dose of self-flagellation from game development, TYVM.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

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Bananamatic wrote:"There are no more feminists. There are women who want more for doing less, and men who want to go out with them and are willing to sacrifice their dignity for it."
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Bananamatic wrote:http://michaelurbina.com/101-everyday-w ... -to-women/

Why aren't you doing these things already?
Some good ideas, a bit of harmless nonsense, and way too much to read. Unfortunately not self-consistent either (as one commenter pointed out, "don't force your opinions" and the points about being pro-choice don't sit together comfortably), although it is very hard to make any kind of a "system" that is actually consistent throughout.

The thing that probably bothers me most about that list is that it seems to suppose that men's reproductive or social aims aren't to be factored in as legitimate aims. Surely there's some way of being a respectable human being while not worrying overly much about other peoples' aims coming into conflict with yours. There is, of course, mostly an area of agreement, and the tips don't emphasize that enough, either - instead emphasizing those areas where there is disagreement. The entire effect is that it casts into doubt whether a man (or any person, for that matter) can really sit comfortably in his own skin while still being respectable. Of course some people would do very well to pay more attention to all of these issues and ramp it down more, but not everybody is a slovenly cat-calling ogler. A surprising amount of this is summed up by learning the rules of being a gentleman and practicing equality (which Urbina aptly calls chivalry for all).
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Randorama wrote:I would add that anyone* who would study tropes in shmups would discover fairly interesting tropes in the genre, such as a very early tendency to portrait women pilots as either player (Proco and Tiat from Darius, Taito 1986).
On the other hand, Darius won't win any awards for racial diversity in its representation of likely futuristic humans, with their idealized white-complected designs, nor will it gain the adoration of activists against human supremism, as it is essentially Jaws in space. Metroid is also from 1986, but its gender content is so slim that it's really hard to parse out whether it is trying to teach us a story about a female protagonist's struggles, or just reward us (as all the sequels have done throughout the years) with some male-oriented fanservice (the smart money is on the latter).

Tying in with what you write later, Darius is quite fairly linear. It seems more apt right to go for the heart of the matter and talk about games with social content. One can make a story about geometric primitives; while it might escape certain tropes, it will also struggle to remain relevant to most people. The biggest problem here, for escaping the trope of dumb games catering to the lowest denominators, is that (to steal an idea from Red Dead Redemption) attempting to avoid making a choice is still making a choice; you can't escape being a part of the discussion. Some approaches attempt to sidestep the issue entirely, and wave it away; others confront it head-on and generally need to be fairly blunt (to the point of being forced and unnatural) in order to try to make an impact. Again, Red Dead Redemption has some good ideas in this area (with its many depictions of male misbehavior, and its fairly realistic portrayal of women in various roles in random events) but ends up getting history hilariously wrong. Of course, the fact that I even have to talk about Red Dead Redemption is sobering; despite the glory heaped on the game for being an "open-world" title, it is barely playable and clearly people are putting much more stock in that "freedom" and the story elements than any actual gameplay elements. Picking herbs in the wilderness? Have the world learned nothing since The Elder Scrolls III?

From the standpoint of games that have been catering to those dumb anglo jock stereotypes, I've always had fun trying to pick apart exactly what message Resident Evil 4's attempting to convey, as it offers a few challenging remarks which aren't undermined entirely by the fact that those challenges to American assumptions about the American place in the world are coming from deluded, hideous monsters.
Really, the key point that she fails to properly assess is that in progression ("story-based") games, where the programmer forces a linear progression on players, there has been a surge of old and ugly tropes to sell to a supposed demographic: dumb, mostly anglo frat jocks. Since this phenomenon does not apply to several historical gaming periods, emergent ("mechanics-based") games and non-frat markets, it cannot be said to be a key factor of how women are portrayed in videogames.
So would you deal with Ms. Pac-Man? Some people enjoyed that it attempted to cater to a different market; others resented the lazy and hamstrung implementation of a gender-dysphoric Pac-Man. The wise realized that it hadn't been necessary at all, except as a marketing gimmick to sell people on what was essentially a minor expansion of the original game. Even in its original incarnations, it seems that the designers quickly constructed a world around Mr. Pac-Man; he has a wife, a brat, lives in a town, and essentially acts more like a person than a pill with a mouth.

I think that this is a perfect example to show where I disagree slightly with your analysis - it's not that there are any genres or historical periods in gaming that have been immune from social considerations, but that some games have been more able to sidestep some issues than others, either due to scarcity of time for storytelling, or the general unsuitability of the material. There probably have been as many riffs on the anime Akira's rather clumsy take on the coming-of-age story in shmups (Master of Weapon, Esp.Ra.De, and Progear, clearly) as there have been cogent treatments of gender issue in games with content more developed than "oh look, a pilot is a woman!" I'm happy for your thesis, but Hellfire S's port turns the woman pilots into typical anime bimbos (and blows them away!), while Namco's Phelios and Capcom's Last Battle are more "guy saves the princess, in space" stories. The more game developers are able to say about these issues, the more it tends to slide back towards these assumptions, at least in some games. Frankly, I wonder where the most egregious examples are. I'm not qualified to talk about the typical pattern in the average blockbuster game, but to bring up Red Dead Redemption one last time, a lot of people seem to have played it and its GOTY compilation packaging crows about having received 160 GOTY awards - but otherwise it seems pretty much solely targeted towards the same "dumb anglo jock" demographic you mention.

Speaking of which, it would be a disservice not to mention the other fairly sizable demographics in other places that are at least as offensive as the "supposed dumb anglo jock" one, like pretty much any Japanese visual novel I've seen (but I think the counter-criticism is fair and should not be completely avoided - "you just haven't seen the right ones." Indeed, I've just happened to see all the strange ones with tentacles, enthusiastic bondage training, male pregnancies, and goodness knows what else.)

In a word I think that you are on the right track, but I have some issue with how you've tried to delineate the boundaries between games that succeed or fail in a treatment of these issues, and I also don't think (though I might be wrong) that you really are up-to-date on mass-market game attempts to deal with these issues, nor with the reality that probably the most "offensive" material is really being made for a niche audience.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by Randorama »

Ed Oscuro wrote:
Randorama wrote:I would add that anyone* who would study tropes in shmups would discover fairly interesting tropes in the genre, such as a very early tendency to portrait women pilots as either player (Proco and Tiat from Darius, Taito 1986).
On the other hand, Darius won't win any awards for racial diversity in its representation of likely futuristic humans, with their idealized white-complected designs, nor will it gain the adoration of activists against human supremism, as it is essentially Jaws in space. Metroid is also from 1986, but its gender content is so slim that it's really hard to parse out whether it is trying to teach us a story about a female protagonist's struggles, or just reward us (as all the sequels have done throughout the years) with some male-oriented fanservice (the smart money is on the latter).
But it was 1986, and still a step ahead that current machismo games. Plus, skin diversity (I abhor the term "race") had to wait for Chase HQ, one year later (both Proco and Tiat are blond with blue eyes, too). Besides, we all know that Darius is actually a tragic story in which the "bad guys" are actually trying to preserve the nature's balance (from G-Darius's plot, 1997).


Tying in with what you write later, Darius is quite fairly linear.


Welcome to emergent games. Their main focus is the game itself, not a "narrative" that aims to hide the lack of a game system, contrary to what people like Ian Bogost want to believe, by flying against the facts. Plots were traditionally ornamental, with some companies (Taito, as Zuntata mentioned in an interview) trying to place more effort than others to design compelling settings.

me wrote:Really, the key point that she fails to properly assess is that in progression ("story-based") games, where the programmer forces a linear progression on players, there has been a surge of old and ugly tropes to sell to a supposed demographic: dumb, mostly anglo frat jocks. Since this phenomenon does not apply to several historical gaming periods, emergent ("mechanics-based") games and non-frat markets, it cannot be said to be a key factor of how women are portrayed in videogames.
Ed wrote:So would you deal with Ms. Pac-Man?
If I recall correctly, one of the programmers said something like this:
he wise realized that it hadn't been necessary at all, except as a marketing gimmick to sell people on what was essentially a minor expansion of the original game. Even in its original incarnations, it seems that the designers quickly constructed a world around Mr. Pac-Man; he has a wife, a brat, lives in a town, and essentially acts more like a person than a pill with a mouth.

I think that this is a perfect example to show where I disagree slightly with your analysis - it's not that there are any genres or historical periods in gaming that have been immune from social considerations, but that some games have been more able to sidestep some issues than others, either due to scarcity of time for storytelling, or the general unsuitability of the material.
Againt, progression games are (surprisingly) a modern invention, in videogames. Storytelling was mostly an ornament, in arcade games.


Speaking of which, it would be a disservice not to mention the other fairly sizable demographics in other places that are at least as offensive as the "supposed dumb anglo jock" one
Those would be a possible target for heavy-metal criticism, but were not in the video under discussion.
In a word I think that you are on the right track, but I have some issue with how you've tried to delineate the boundaries between games that succeed or fail in a treatment of these issues.
I didn't really try, though.
and I also don't think (though I might be wrong) that you really are up-to-date on mass-market game attempts to deal with these issues, nor with the reality that probably the most "offensive" material is really being made for a niche audience.
I don't, really. I don't play non-arcade games, and will not bother with progression games unless under torture. To each one's own research topic.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Randorama wrote:Againt, progression games are (surprisingly) a modern invention, in videogames. Storytelling was mostly an ornament, in arcade games.
I would say that storytelling wasn't even paid much attention to in early console days. Super Mario Bros has an absurd setting that it ties into saving a generic princess, Zelda has a long text scroll that amounted to 'save some princess and her magic triangles' (people like it for the huge map and exploration, not because of the story) and all of the early Megaman games were just 'Wily is evil, Wily gets captured, Wily escapes, repeat' with slight variations of having a new fake bad guy appear before we get the 'oh it's just Wily again' reveal. It wasn't until the later Mega Man X games that they even tried to seriously work at characterization or a major overarching plot that you could care about.

Even early RPGs were off to a rocky start with respect to the plot. Wizardry's first couple of plots were entirely forgettable, Ultima and Phantasie were more interesting because of the overall setting and game world but had little to no characterization of any of the antagonists as they showed up pretty much at the end of the game for you to kill. Dragon Quest had some interesting 'look at all this cool shit your ancestors left you!' but was basically just a long powergrind/hunt for cool stuff to beat the Dragonlord (and it had a princess to save too, though this wasn't actually necessary to beat the game). Final Fantasy had a princess rescue at the start then a 'now the game begins!' but you had very little important character interaction overall aside from maybe with the Sages at Crescent Lake, and the whole time loop thing basically makes little to no sense to anyone who's beaten the game and is just an excuse for Garland to somehow also be the big bad guy all along.

Phantasy Star and SaGa made much better attempts at creating genuinely interesting/unique scenarios as far as early RPGs go.
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RNGmaster
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by RNGmaster »

Bananamatic wrote:"There are no more feminists. There are women who want more for doing less, and men who want to go out with them and are willing to sacrifice their dignity for it."
There are, but people ignore them because they think all feminists are fire-spewing radicals. Honestly, Sarkesian isn't all that bad as feminists go, compared to the radical feminists who encourage trans women to commit suicide and believe that being born with testicles is some sort of irredeemable sin. It's possible to support equal wages for equal work, work to stop rape culture at home and abroad, and discourage objectification without, as you say, "wanting more for doing less". Being treated equally isn't, in my mind, the same as wanting to be treated specially.

It's pretty weird IMO that feminism 101 (even if it's really unpolished and heavy-handed like the femfreq videos) is causing so many people to dramatically lose their shit. I don't know what could explain that.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by BryanM »

RNGmaster wrote:I don't know what could explain that.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by Udderdude »

BryanM wrote:
RNGmaster wrote:I don't know what could explain that.
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Uh no, some crazy racist dudes did not run around planting the idea that feminists are radicals in other people's heads. Radical feminism did that all on it's own.

People associate both feminism and radical feminism because they tend to be louder and more obnoxious.
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Re: Tropes vs Women in video games

Post by louisg »

Udderdude wrote: Uh no, some crazy racist dudes did not run around planting the idea that feminists are radicals in other people's heads. Radical feminism did that all on it's own.

People associate both feminism and radical feminism because they tend to be louder and more obnoxious.
I've never read any books on serious feminism, so I think I'll have to give it the benefit of the doubt. But I can safely say what I'm going to call Blog Feminism, like so much other blog content, is just angry, thoughtless, and full of fallacies. When I read an article a friend links that they think is thoughtful, it too often seems to willfully (or unconsciously..?) misinterpret statements or messages in order to be outraged, or sometimes even appears to be a piece blasting male sexuality in general (probably from a lack of understanding, like so many things.. and that's not a dig, so many problems are caused by people not understanding one another).

There also seems to be a serious "kick geeks" problem, where there's an article with a headline about how horribly misogynistic geek culture is, you click, and it's inevitably something where the guilty party is outside of the tech culture and is an ad firm or some other contract business, or it's something like, "at a conference of 100,000 people, there was one minor harassment case and this proves geeks are so horrible". As a techy geeky guy, that shit doesn't earn many points with me. I don't know if it's a case of "I never ventured out into the real world before joining the tech industry and I'm shocked by what I see", or "I'm going to pick on a vulnerable group of males who are already seen as a little weird, because I'm mad at how women are treated in our culture, and it's easier to do that than to tackle society as a whole".

I'm not saying people don't have a right or a good reason to be angry at the status quo, because there are a lot of problems with equality within our society and plenty of shitty attitudes towards women. But I think these kinds of blog articles end up trivializing the very cause they seek to support.
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