These are my Shmup confessions...

[jonny5]

- I believe if you play any video game for or judge any video game based on the aesthetics, you are a secondary, a casual, a scrub

They are video games; aesthetics/imagery do play a part in the overall presentation. Mechanics can make or break a game, but so can the visuals. I don't care how great a game plays, if it hurts my eyes to look at it, I probably won't play it for long.

[trap15]

- I believe if you play any video game for or judge any video game based on the aesthetics, you are a secondary, a casual, a scrub

Sorry but no. Aesthetics are a huge huge huge thing in video games. This doesn't necessarily mean the graphics or music have to be good, but it has to flow and be appealing. Would you want to play an STG where everything feels lifeless and boring and there's no sense of you actually even doing anything? No explosion sound effects, no explosion graphics, no shot-hitting-enemy sounds, nothing? Probably not.

[Hagane]

Yes, these are video games, but the emphasis is on games. You can have a good game if the mechanics and system are good, but you absoultely can't have a good game based on visuals/presentation/story/whatever alone.

Does that mean that presentation doesn't matter? Absolutely not, developers should strive to give a complete package, and a good game will be even better if it has good presentation. But that doesn't mean we should be calling games good if they are actually terrible for playing but have nice aesthetics, or ignore good ones just because they aren't up to standard in that department, like most mainstream media does. That's just missing the point of what games are about, and that's the main reason why modern gaming sucks so bad in general.

Games are about mechanics first, and the rest is a nice bonus. A paper cut chess set will play better than a checkers set made of gold.

Oh, and most people who complain about memorization don't know what memorization really is.

[ptoing]

Oh, and most people who complain about memorization don't know what memorization really is.

So, what is it then, really? I always thought it is remembering stuff? Might be wrong tho, my memory might fail me.

[trap15]

Hagane said it much more eloquently than I ever could

[casualcoder]

In the vast majority of cases, memorization refers only to the fixed stage scroll and enemy placement. It is not possible to memorize bullet trajectories, speed and patterns if they change dependent upon your ship placement, rank level, etc. Maybe in parts (such a dead zones) but not for the entire game. Any way you cut it, you will have to think on the fly and rely on reflexes or you are dead.

[ptoing]

Well yeah, that is pretty obvious. He just made it sound like this memorisation business is some arcane knowledge. I think it is something that just happens when you play a game, no matter what. You can play any game, if you play it enough, you will memorise what is happening in it and what you have to do in given situations, in cases where it is possible without freestyling. That's it imo, nothing more, nothing less.

[Hagane]

Yeah, memorization is simply having knowledge of what comes next to perform better. It's in every single good game in the genre. So complaining that you have to know what comes next to advance in the game is pointless. The only instances where memo is bad are when knowledge alone lets you bypass something. But those instances are very few. Memorizing is always the easiest part, even in supposedly "memorization heavy" games. You memorize stuff with a few plays or watching some replays. Actually understanding the game and then executing your plans is the hardest part, freestyling and reactions being very (very) secondary aspects of STGs.

So, that's why I think that when people complain about memorization 99% of the time they really don't know what they are complaining about.

[ptoing]

I can agree with that sentiment.

[ACSeraph]

I generally agree with everyone's sentiments here on memorization in games, but I do think that those rare instances where its totally impossible to avoid something if you didn't know it was coming beforehand are examples of bad game design.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I generally agree with everyone's sentiments here on memorization in games, but I do think that those rare instances where its totally impossible to avoid something if you didn't know it was coming beforehand are examples of bad game design.

Most good shmups generally don't throw crazy patterns where it's a "dodge this exactly this way or die". Especially ones with smaller hitboxes give you much more leeway, and then there's bombs, which further gives you a bigger margin of error.

Memorization also applies to games like RPGs, where sometimes knowing a boss's weaknesses or what weapons/spells work best at a certain point makes a huge difference in success. Really, the only difference is a shmup (or any other fast-paced game like a racing game) requires remembering good positioning throughout key spots in the stage, not just every so often.

[Formless God]

Aesthetics are a huge huge huge thing in video games.

Don't wanna hear this from a programmer.

Would you want to play an STG where everything feels lifeless and boring

If it's just the visual style and visibility isn't affected, yes, because the only things I look at when playing an STG are: my own sprite, my resources, the counters on the screen, the areas surrounding the collectibles, and the areas surrounding the collidables.
If both survival and score play feel lifeless and boring, that game can fuck right off.

and there's no sense of you actually even doing anything? No explosion sound effects, no explosion graphics, no shot-hitting-enemy sounds, nothing? Probably not.

Well, no, I wouldn't want that. The explosion graphics need to be there so that I know I just killed an enemy. The death animation needs to stand out enough so that I know precisely where I messed up. Do the graphics and SFX need to be there? Yes. Do they suddenly make the game a pile of shit if they're not AWESOME TO THE MAX? No.

Hagane already put it nicely here:

that doesn't mean we should be calling games good if they are actually terrible for playing but have nice aesthetics, or ignore good ones just because they aren't up to standard in that department

[AntiFritz]

Would you want to play an STG where everything feels lifeless and boring

If it's just the visual style and visibility isn't affected, yes, because the only things I look at when playing an STG are: my own sprite, my resources, the counters on the screen, the areas surrounding the collectibles, and the areas surrounding the collidables.

You sound like one of those fighting game fans which would want nothing more then square hitboxes attacking each other. Simply absurd.

[HeLGeN-X]

I listen to the SDJ soundtrack almost day as well as DOJ...

I play the iOS versions hardcore while straphanging...

[oboewan42]

Would you want to play an STG where everything feels lifeless and boring

If it's just the visual style and visibility isn't affected, yes, because the only things I look at when playing an STG are: my own sprite, my resources, the counters on the screen, the areas surrounding the collectibles, and the areas surrounding the collidables.

You sound like one of those fighting game fans which would want nothing more then square hitboxes attacking each other. Simply absurd.

here you go (similar concept, but not quite the same)

[HeLGeN-X]

I think Basugun is one of the definitive shmup games next to Gradius...

[KAI]

-IMO, if you don't like Ibara and PS it's because they are 2 deep 4 you.
-Played DFK Strong today and I'm still hating it,
-Psykyo games are all about memorization.
-Radirgy is perfect.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

PS2DEEP4U

But I still hate this thread.

[Skykid]

I've been on this forum for nearly 6 years and I've never been on IRC.

[CStarFlare]

I've been on this forum for nearly 6 years and I've never been on IRC.

I wanted to a while back but don't know where to go.

[Herr Schatten]

I've been on this forum for nearly 6 years and I've never been on IRC.

I've been on this forum for 10 years and I've never been on IRC.

[Skykid]

Damn we're too cool for school.

[nasty_wolverine]

I've been on this forum for nearly 6 years and I've never been on IRC.

I wanted to a while back but don't know where to go.

#shmups on efnet. xchat2 makes it easy.

[Bonus!]

Here's mine: I don't like playing shmups that don't have autofire. I think Cave did it fantastically with the optional autofire extra button, which you can enable via the BIOS settings in MAME. I just find it tedious to hammer the same key thousands of times in an hour...

[Astraea FGA Mk. I]

I turn on extends for Pink Sweets.......

I know I will never be truly good at this game. With extends to match arrange I can actually enjoy it and make it reasonably far.

[Marurun]

- I am horrible at 1CCing any danmaku game unless it has bullet nullifying scoring systems.
- I'm better at arrange modes than regular arcade modes for some weird reason.
- I really, REALLY hate all the loli stuff in shmups now; Pink Sweets excluded since it has WOMEN in it.
- Progear's gem collection noise makes me feel like I'm playing a slot machine with bullets and war machines.
- I think M.U.S.H.A is one of the most rad shmups ever made.
- Thunderforce III and IV are also pretty rad.
- I find Aero Fighters 2 a lot of fun, but Psikyo games not so fun.
- Shmups with flying people are stupid looking to me even if the games themselves are good.
- Guwange's play style where you're walking on the ground instead of flying hurts my brain for some reason.
- Games without autofire irritate me if I'm required to mash too much (Looking at you Blazing Star...)

[trap15]

Aside from Touhou (obvious), DeathSmiles and I guess Otomedius... what other STG actually have lolis?

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

I just took a huge shmup in the bathroom. First I pissed and then I shmupped my ass. I hate it when I'm in public and I feel a shmup coming on. I don't like shmupping in the bathroom at work either but all that coffee... If you don't like it then shmup you shmuphead. Shmup off.

[Bananamatic]

Aside from Touhou (obvious), DeathSmiles and I guess Otomedius... what other STG actually have lolis?

Gunbird

[trap15]

Which character is a loli there? Marion couldn't be younger than ~14?