Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu, my new crack.

[HeLGeN-X]

Sorry to say, but I find it way more challenge and complex than SDJ. I remember playing it in Mikado in Shinjuku and thought it was a remix of DOJ, then immediately changed my thought when I felt how much harder it was.

I was dying to play SDJ, but when I saw some videos of DFK, I bought it and I think I like it better than SDJ.

Anyway, who likes it, and who can tell me how to fight the TLB? Can't seem to find out how anywhere.

[AntiFritz]

I'm not sure of the entire requirements but I'm fairly sure hibachi requires you to beat the ura loop...

[BareKnuckleRoo]

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=44187

Basically, after you clear the game the 1st time, assuming you meet the requirements to loop the game, you get either the Normal 2nd Loop or the Secret/Ura) 2nd Loop. Which loop you get determines the TLB you face. The normal 2nd loop has only the first TLB, Golden Disaster. The Secret/Ura Loop has you face Golden Disaster followed by Hibachi.

Once you're in either loop, all you need to do is survive to get to the TLBs. The real difficulty is actually looping the game - the normal 2nd loop isn't too bad as you just need to learn where the bees are (and the Novice mode on the Xbox port has them all revealed), but the Ura loop is very strict.

[Special World]

My least favorite Cave game by a large margin :\

Arrange A is fun though!

[KAI]

My least favorite Cave game by a large margin :\

Welcome to the club.

[HeLGeN-X]

Why do some people not like this game?

[trap15]

The autobomb ruins a lot, the hypers are easily abuseable, below-average stage design in CAVE standards, and FUCKING LASER WHEELS

[Giest118]

Why do some people not like this game?

It crosses a threshold where its scoring has... too much depth. For a lot of people this makes it really annoying to play, as one slip-up can break an otherwise perfectly good scoring run.

Also, it's not really that much of a survival challenge compared to other Cave games.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The hypers aren't really that abuseable since hyper rank quickly makes it difficult (or impossible when maxed) to cancel bullets. In the second loop, hyper rank doesn't drop as much between stages or after each death, especially on the Ura route, so if you rely on hypers to save you, you are going to be fucked.

Not using hypers is actually important to scoring as when you have a full hyper, you get a point multiplier based on your current combo count, so scoring is usually about hypering a few times early on, then not touching your hypers for the rest of the stage as you chain everything. Black Label is really where you're motivated to hyper constantly to cancel everything...

The autobomb is a nice convenience but you can only use 2 bombs max if you want the Ura loop, so it's more a case of there's a big difference between going for a 1-All and going for a good scoring loop clear. The laser wheels can definitely fuck off, though, they make stage 5 absolutely hellish, and are part of the reason why Arrange A rocks (you can destroy them!).

[Special World]

Why do some people not like this game?

Autobomb makes survival play unsatisfying
The game feels like it builds up to scoring rather than scoring right away, so if you die you feel like you wasted everything up to that point
Really weak visuals and audio
Loli bosses are kinda lame imo... I didn't mind them at the time but looking back they're really very bland
Too fiddly; I don't like Cave's 4-button controls even though I like some of their 4-button games
Two of the ships are p much inconsequential for scoring
Feels like you have to do every single thing perfectly or you're punished for it
Scoring is obtuse even by Cave standards

It's the only Cave game that I just don't have any fun with. I can enjoy everything else. DFK though... can't stand it.

[HeLGeN-X]

I can't go too in depth with the scoring system and what not, but I rarely use bombs or hypers. I do tend to copy what I see when a good player plays to see if it works for me, but it usually doesn't, and I just tend to try to survive. But these days, I am trying to get high scores, and it's very challenging in this one I see.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

The Black Label version if you include requirements/beating of the ex boss golden asshat is a really fun challenge to 1CC even with "hyper abuse" and they made the chaining actually be fun. Hardly anyone here has done it according to the hiscore tables. 1.0/1.5 I need more time with before being able to really review but does feel like something is missing...so far.

[lothies]

FUCKING LASER WHEELS

THIS. SO MUCH.

[kathy]

My *only* hate for dfk sits with the stage 5 lasers.. a couple of lasers would have been a cool novelty but by the time you are finished with them there usually will have been at least one casualty = )

Power mode in dfk is my favorite Cave game mode (I suck at playing and don't play for score) but it's fun to stay in hyper mode for 70% of the game

The arrange is also sexy - i can't think of any other game from any developer that starts you off with so much fire power?

God bless your ass Cave

[Skykid]

Also, it's not really that much of a survival challenge compared to other Cave games.

It is if you play Power Style, harder than the original Dodonpachi.

The niggling issue with DFK is scoring, which is really an all or nothing thing. Lose a life hallway through stage four and you may as well jack it in if you're trying to make any impact on the leaderboards. DFK is a slightly uncomfortable blend of relaxed and strict that people find tough to buy into.

Additionally, IKD's bullet patterns aren't up to scratch in terms of clever arrangements and intricacies, it's more a bombardment requiring strategic hyper usage to move through, and lots of snappy danger lasers to snuff out. That goes for the bosses too, Leinyan fucking sucks.

My least favorite Cave game by a large margin :\

Welcome to the club.

It's superior to Deathsmiles however.

Really weak visuals and audio

I can see most of your criticisms but weak visuals?! Compared to what? Mushi Futari?

If there's one thing DFK does pretty well, it's graphics.

[7711]

Maybe what I think don't really matters since I've never played this game, but I've watched a certain ammount of replays and its THE game I want to play. For some reason I'm bored as hell whan watching Saidaioujou gameplay but this one looks so damn good.
I don't think it does everything right tought, the scoring system sounds weird and the game looks too easy, but when I hear people saying stuff like its the worst Cave game I'm a bit puzzled.

[lemonhead]

Arrange A is my favourite game now. I like it more than SDOJ.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

If there's one thing DFK does pretty well, it's graphics.

Yeah, they put a ton of effort into the backgrounds and it shows. I especially love the effect during the stage 2 ura route midboss.

[Skykid]

Maybe what I think don't really matters since I've never played this game, but I've watched a certain ammount of replays and its THE game I want to play. For some reason I'm bored as hell whan watching Saidaioujou gameplay but this one looks so damn good.
I don't think it does everything right tought, the scoring system sounds weird and the game looks too easy, but when I hear people saying stuff like its the worst Cave game I'm a bit puzzled.

It's the design decisions. Honestly, 1.5 is one of the ultimate eye-candy shmups from a spectator perspective. When I had it demoed firsthand by an expert it was the first time I'd sat back and properly observed: and it's beautiful to look at. The screen roams constantly and shit's exploding all over the place, enormous Ura bosses leaping through quantum screen ripples and an incessant flow of enemies. It's a real looker.

But put the scoring into practice and there's a lot of patience required. I can easily go Ura route and maximum chain stage 1, but just chaining through the stage 2 mid-boss is absolutely irritating. Drop a large chain by dying or autobombing (if you have a bomb in stock) and you may as well walk away - you're basically done for when it comes to score because you've just blown a shit ton of points, especially on the last two stages. On the flip, Bomb style is just as annoying when played for score, but far too easy when played for survival.

DFK is just very uneven, but it's still a good game. The laser wheels are actually the poorest design decision I've seen IKD ever implement: just a cheap way to create challenge that really should have been done by original bullet patterns.

[Weak Boson]

For me the thing that made DFK click with me was the novice mode. You can actually flail about in that mode and get to grips with how the game works. For me it happened in stage 5 when I'd got a reasonably high hit counter in the run up to the boss, then my hyper gauge filled and my score went through the roof! It was pretty cool. The decepticon schoolgirls are stupid though.

But yeah, I like the system, if there was any DDP game I'd like to learn to chain properly it'd be this one (can't judge SDOJ yet). Last I played I was struggling to do stage 2 consistently but I do intend to go back to it.

[Special World]

I can see most of your criticisms but weak visuals?! Compared to what? Mushi Futari?

I mean that they lack style. They look totally generic to me. The game has no uniting feel to it.

For some reason Black Label feels a lot better to me, though. It's like they took 1.5 and shoved it into overdrive and made excess the point rather than just the result.

Maybe what I think don't really matters since I've never played this game, but I've watched a certain ammount of replays and its THE game I want to play. For some reason I'm bored as hell whan watching Saidaioujou gameplay but this one looks so damn good.

Sometimes what looks fun and what is fun is totally different. The patterns in SDOJ are incredibly fun to actually play, but there's very little flashy bullet patterns in that game. They're entirely functional. But you might have a different experience.

[7711]

Sometimes what looks fun and what is fun is totally different. The patterns in SDOJ are incredibly fun to actually play, but there's very little flashy bullet patterns in that game. They're entirely functional. But you might have a different experience.

Yes, I'm really waiting to finally play these games to confirm this, but for Daifukkatsu its all about patterns. I can easily hate a game if I don't like the patterns, but most of the ones I see in Daifukkatsu (including boss attacks) looks so exciting from my perspective, and since the game itself looks beautifull and I love the general design...

I really understand people disagreeing whith the direction the Dodonpachi series took after Daioujou, but when I see most players hating on this game and praising Saidaioujou it makes no sense to me.

Of course I don't like scoring, so its obvious that I'm not looking at it from the same angle as most of you do, but from a "playing for fun/clearing" point of view Daifukkatsu looks as good as the previous games in the series.

[Special World]

My favorite patterns in Daiffukkatsu were the third boss patterns, I think. Those are just great.

But I think Cave's aimed shots don't get enough love, and I'm really happy when they feature prominently. Ketsui had amazing boss patterns, but it's those brutal aimed shots throughout the stages that really got me. Same with SDOJ - they're just incredibly fun. The bosses though, are maybe too crazy. They feel like the furthest extension of Cave's classic style; they're very straighforward but incredibly difficult. I'm really loving the game though, and it feels like a successful attempt at what DFK tried and failed to do: making chaining more accessible and more fun. People say the chaining in DFK is easier/more/lenient than DOJ, but DOJ's scoring at least feels consistent, whereas in DFK I was always saying to myself "Why did my chain break?" It's incredibly irritating, imo.

Also, the autobomb really does get in the way of enjoying your 1CC. "Yay, I cleared it... in what was essentially 15 lives."

[ratsflif]

Honestly I think my biggest gripe with DFK is with the bosses. I absolutely hate that they each transform into giant robot girls, there was none of that nonsense in the other DDP games. I really like how each game from DP - DDP - DOJ each increased the scale of the games, bosses from the prior games became smaller or popcorn enemies and you revisit areas from the previous games. DFK just seemed to depart from all the previous iterations.

[Skykid]

I mean that they lack style. They look totally generic to me. The game has no uniting feel to it.

Yes, that makes sense. I think the general style somehow lacks soul, despite being like a non-stop firework display. I think part of that emptiness also results from the system and the fact the patterns just aren't really patterns very often. More on that in a second...

Otherwise it's graphically very accomplished indeed, the only thing I don't like are the Loli bosses. Not because they're Lolis so much as because they look like pre-rendered garbage and it's a very stupid idea that doesn't feel right in the game. In comparison all the Ura bosses look absolutely ass-kickingly amazing... but that's because they come from previous Donpachis. Go figure.

For some reason Black Label feels a lot better to me, though. It's like they took 1.5 and shoved it into overdrive and made excess the point rather than just the result.

You're certainly not alone. I think 1.5 has its perks honestly, it is a good game no doubt, but I can see why after a while of trying to crack its scoring someone would just give in a jump back on BL's off the cuff score building insanity.

People say the chaining in DFK is easier/more/lenient than DOJ, but DOJ's scoring at least feels consistent, whereas in DFK I was always saying to myself "Why did my chain break?" It's incredibly irritating, imo.

Agreed. There are several ways to break a chain in DFK, and sometimes ways you almost can't break it at all. It's fucking annoying, definitely, and far too convoluted.

I really understand people disagreeing whith the direction the Dodonpachi series took after Daioujou

It's one of, if not the greatest shmup ever made, the purest dilution of Ikeda's beautiful bullet filled brain - how can you possibly follow it?

DFK is the answer (and that you can't.)

I can easily hate a game if I don't like the patterns, but most of the ones I see in Daifukkatsu (including boss attacks) looks so exciting from my perspective

You'll need to hold fire until you play it. The problem with the patterns in DFK is there aren't enough of them. Usually it's about bombardment, and because you're forced to hyper to build chain, you won't see many patterns anyway: you're not supposed to do much dodging during a hyper, but splice now and then from laser to shot to cancel bullets to keep you alive. Doing this constantly means you're really never seeing any patterns as such, until the latter half of each stage and the bosses - but even then, there are very few that are memorable. The stage 3 drones that shoot twin shots are quite fun, as you can get right in the middle of the heat, the giant ships that come on from the screen extremities are ok I suppose, a tad easy, and you'll just hate the laser wheels for ruining every run you do. You can do amazingly up to that point and no miss, and then it'll just swipe several lives off you if it goes wrong - a horrible idea that takes a LOT of practice to learn. As I said before, not very smart design from IKD.

[Special World]

It's one of, if not the greatest shmup ever made, the purest dilution of Ikeda's beautiful bullet filled brain - how can you possibly follow it?

DFK is the answer (and that you can't.)

I think SDOJ really does a great job of it. I'm not sure that it *quite* lives up to DOJ, but I also admit that DOJ was one that took me a *long* time to warm to. I think the reason for that is that the scoring amounts to "be here now," and so it feels incredibly strict. But the thing I've come to realize is that it's such a pure, fantastic survival challenge that all that doesn't matter so much, and the fact is, the Dodonpachi scoring system is completely rooted in the fundamentals of the genre. So even though it's "be here now," that's where you'd want to be anyways: in that spot, rapid-firing popcorn enemies and lasering big guys. There are a number of points where you need to stagger things in a sort of unnatural way to keep your chain going, but overall its an incredibly intuitive system.

SDOJ though, I think really addresses the problems I initially had with DOJ scoring. Things are a lot less strict, but not in such a way that it feels the game is giving you points. You're still being penalized for letting your meter drop, but it's typically a lowering of your combo rather than an outright break. So there's no real complete defeat, unless you die hypering. Plus, they've really ratcheted up the visual scoring for this one, and I think its visual scoring is second only to Futari Black. I think DOJ still has better bullets though - it feels like Cave was completely in control, like they structured every area just so, like each bullet was methodically analyzed for play. SDOJ has really fun areas, but I don't think it's so purely laid out as DOJ.

Both great games though, and two of my favorites. I'm hoping SDOJ keeps growing on me, and that this isn't just a new Cave game love affair. I can see myself getting discouraged though - it's insanely hard. I think it might be too hard, for once. I can't clear many Cave games, but most feel do-able with practice. SDOJ feels like the game you play every day for 10 years before completing. It's a legacy game. DOJ is hard as hell, but I feel like I'd get that clear if I stuck with it.

[jepjepjep]

Honestly I think my biggest gripe with DFK is with the bosses. I absolutely hate that they each transform into giant robot girls, there was none of that nonsense in the other DDP games.

Me too. Other than that, I really enjoy the game.

[Bananamatic]

watch a replay or something, laser wheels arent that hard if you know what to do

why are there almost no omote clears on the scoreboard? it's like 1 and a quarter of the average cave clear with strong and ura isn't all that hard to clear either, way easier than any 2-all out there

You'll need to hold fire until you play it. The problem with the patterns in DFK is there aren't enough of them. Usually it's about bombardment, and because you're forced to hyper to build chain, you won't see many patterns anyway: you're not supposed to do much dodging during a hyper, but splice now and then from laser to shot to cancel bullets to keep you alive. Doing this constantly means you're really never seeing any patterns as such, until the latter half of each stage and the bosses - but even then, there are very few that are memorable.

go hyper something on the second loop with max rank

laser wheels are a pattern too

[Marc]

Because the laser wheels are a period of having to get it absolutely right or else, and it's tedious. If I fuck up earlier it's my fault. I accept that. The laser wheels are the Shmup equivalent of Rick Dangerous, and if you don't like credit feeding or practise runs, you're fucked.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

I've always hated the merry go rounds and just accepted I wouldn't be able to chain through them and bomb spam through those bitches. Still a fun clear (black label at least, for 1.5 you might have to figure out making it to the second loop to get much clear challenge).