PGM Conversins - your opinion?

[system11]

It's surface mount parts unmounting themselves that does this, and I suspect usually as a result of the board being flexed over a period of time.

[brokenhalo]

Some people quite enjoy the search and acquisition part of the hobby, as well as the playing, and are prepared to spend a large part of their income to do so. It's a shame there's such a lassez faire attitude to someone diminishing desirability because he wants to make a fast buck for himself.

But some people don't have the luck or the money. How many people on this forum are willing to drop stupid amounts of money for Rapid Hero? What if suddenly a perfect bootleg popped up in plentiful numbers? Would we complain that now everyone can play the game, or would we celebrate that now everyone can play the game?

And if the game is any good, the desirability won't drop whatsoever. the price might. but the (sometimes perceived) rarity almost always acts like an artificial crutch propping up inflated prices.

[Skykid]

And if the game is any good, the desirability won't drop whatsoever. the price might. but the (sometimes perceived) rarity almost always acts like an artificial crutch propping up inflated prices.

Scarcity is what makes any aspect of collecting viable. Prices are just a reflection.

I can't afford (or find) a Rapid Hero, but that doesn't mean I'd encourage bootlegging it. Play it in mame any time you like.

[cools]

It's exactly the same profiteering as everyone is complaining about with regards to STV...

[Hagane]

Leaving morals aside, I don't see the point of buying a bootleg. I only buy stuff if I really like it, to support the makers (if they are still active) and to have the real thing. If you want to play the game and can't find/afford it, you always have MAME until your situation changes.

[Ed Oscuro]

You know, all the time I see people doing terrible things to nice games because they think they have a better use for them.

It so turns out that most people have awful, awful taste. i.e. using "common" NES games as "sac carts." I saw Shadowgate mentioned the other day. You're kidding me, you're going to rip off the label and dump the PCB in the trash so you can play some translation?

Same deal here. I wonder how many people would destroy Sengeki Striker for Cyvern? Cyvern might be (emphasis "might") a slightly nicer game but that's just punishing people in the future who might actually like Striker just as well.

/me conveniently forgets he politely respected the destruction of an xbox 360 a week ago...to be fair that was political art, a one-time-deal, and nobody was told that it was the one true cross when he was done with it. Of course there must be some level of generation of new things from what is old, but tone matters, not ripping people off matters, and I think people had better have a good reason for fucking around with old hardware. There is a lot of different opinion on this, of course, and it's not clear most of it rises beyond the level of a legal or conventional violation of norms.

[chempop]

First off, I'm glad my Cyvern conversion is getting this much attention
I bought the game knowing that it was a "rom conversion", but not fully understanding the whole story. Still, I'm happy I bought it because I'm enjoying the game a lot and I'll certainly get my money's worth of entertainment out of it (even if the value is much less than I paid).

I'd also like to point out that I would have had to spend at least an extra $100-150 if I wanted to play a legit cart, and for me that was a breaking point. The game plays just fine, unlike the Mame version from what I have heard. Also I don't have a mame rig, but I do have a cab, so buying this was the obvious choice for me.

I understand the points on each side of the argument. But as a collector AND a gamer, I try to buy legit products when I can, but when the price is too demanding I do sometimes go with the alternative.

Gley Lancer is another boot I've bought and enjoyed a ton. Not something I'd spend $200 on, but for $15 it was well worth it.

As for the PGM Conversions, I'm somewhat interested. I don't own Ketsui, Galuda, DOJ, or whatever else is being worked on, so if they play faithfully and are a decent price I'd certainly consider them down the road.

[trap15]

The main issue with conversions IMO, is that they're generally vastly overpriced. A conversion is only worth the cheapest game for the system, plus maybe $10. Then you go and look at Osman conversions and those sell for over $400 when the cheapest game that can be converted to it is... around $50 or so.

If a conversion gives the converter very little profit, I have no problem. It's the blatant profiteering that bugs the ever-loving fuck out of me.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'd also like to point out that I would have had to spend at least an extra $100-150 if I wanted to play a legit cart, and for me that was a breaking point.

Ultimately this is going to cost you a lot more money, though - you can't sell this at the asking price in good conscience now, whereas shelling out (admitting it apparently is a bit of a crapshoot / detective game these days) for the real thing would let you sell it later if you wish.

I also really have no confidence in hand-soldering compared to factory soldering, in almost any case, and it's just a last ditch measure for me to fix something or possibly to mod something...now apply that possibility of unseen flaws in the soldering to a whole board's worth of IC and EPROM pins, blegh.

If a conversion gives the converter very little profit, I have no problem. It's the blatant profiteering that bugs the ever-loving fuck out of me.

Maybe if we're lucky they'll end up flooding themselves out of the market.

[brokenhalo]

The main issue with conversions IMO, is that they're generally vastly overpriced. A conversion is only worth the cheapest game for the system, plus maybe $10. Then you go and look at Osman conversions and those sell for over $400 when the cheapest game that can be converted to it is... around $50 or so.

If a conversion gives the converter very little profit, I have no problem. It's the blatant profiteering that bugs the ever-loving fuck out of me.

The pricing of the pgm conversions doesn't bother me. You have to consider the makers time to rewrite the code, and his labor. By no means is that only worth $10. The case of Osman does seem rediculous, but all it would take is for someone to step up and do it cheaper and the problem would be fixed.

[brokenhalo]

I'd also like to point out that I would have had to spend at least an extra $100-150 if I wanted to play a legit cart, and for me that was a breaking point.

Ultimately this is going to cost you a lot more money, though - you can't sell this at the asking price in good conscience now, whereas shelling out (admitting it apparently is a bit of a crapshoot / detective game these days) for the real thing would let you sell it later if you wish.

I also really have no confidence in hand-soldering compared to factory soldering, in almost any case, and it's just a last ditch measure for me to fix something or possibly to mod something...now apply that possibility of unseen flaws in the soldering to a whole board's worth of IC and EPROM pins

Other than the fact that this board doesn't allow the sale of bootlegs, i don't see how anyone would have an issue selling a bootleg cyvern or bootleg pgm cart. There's a market for these. That's been established already. Price it a bit lower than a cart from "the source" and be honest about what it is and you'll have no problem finding a buyer.

And sure, factory soldering would be preferable to hand-soldering. But as long as it's reasonably clean work there shouldn't be any issues. Especially with these being in carts. Less flexing and wear and tear on the boards.

[trap15]

The pricing of the pgm conversions doesn't bother me. You have to consider the makers time to rewrite the code, and his labor. By no means is that only worth $10.

The time to rework the code isn't that long. From my experience hacking around in Ketsui and DOJ, it takes very little effort. In fact, DOJ requires no code modifications at all to be converted to a cart. Past that, the EPROMs necessary is surely under $10, and the code re-work is a 'one-time cost', so it shouldn't add up to that much per-cart.

[cools]

I actually have no problem with genuine bootlegs, it's only these damn destructive conversions.

You don't melt down historical artifacts of lower value to make copies of more valuable ones...

[Ed Oscuro]

I actually have no problem with genuine bootlegs, it's only these damn destructive conversions.

You don't melt down historical artifacts of lower value to make copies of more valuable ones...

That's pretty much my take on it. Boots can be interesting in of themselves. It took some real skill to make them. It doesn't mean that it's great they were taking sales from the bigger names, though it did help some hardware hackers get their feet in the door. It's hard to see what purpose lazy bootlegging serves, though.

There's also the problem (a selfish one, to be sure) that it's easier to take bootlegging when it's up to the company with the original release to crack down on it, and when you aren't being asked to pay much more for a bootleg than just the costs of materials and the bootlegger's time in redesigning the board somewhat. It's different when somebody "serves" the hobby by destroying, as you rightly point out, "lesser" games (which may or may not be worse games after all), might devalue somebody else's originals, and quite often isn't honest about it. I don't know if HD is honest or not, but there certainly are tons of "conversion" boots of Neo Geo games on eBay that aren't advertised as such.

[chempop]

His games are listed as "rom conversions". If he's sacrificing Gals Panic and Mahjong games, I don't think it's a big loss. I also don't particularly mind CPS2 conversions, I believe my Dimahoo is one which I paid $150 for. Kinda pricey but again - it's a game I want to PLAY and I will never sell it.

[trap15]

I'd rather buy Gals Panic and Mahjong games than Cyvern, personally (Nothing against Cyvern, I just really like Gals Panic and Mahjong)

[Skykid]

His games are listed as "rom conversions". If he's sacrificing Gals Panic and Mahjong games, I don't think it's a big loss. I also don't particularly mind CPS2 conversions, I believe my Dimahoo is one which I paid $150 for. Kinda pricey but again - it's a game I want to PLAY and I will never sell it.

Isn't that about what a regular Dimahoo costs - or at least the JP ver (GMD)?

[undamned]

Same deal here. I wonder how many people would destroy Sengeki Striker for Cyvern?

I find it impossible to believe that anyone is converting Sengeki Striker carts into anything else.

If he's sacrificing Gals Panic and Mahjong games, I don't think it's a big loss.

This.

I also don't particularly mind CPS2 conversions, I believe my Dimahoo is one which I paid $150 for. Kinda pricey but again - it's a game I want to PLAY and I will never sell it.

You payed $150 for a Dimahoo conversion?
-ud