Practice modes and Save States - What do you think?

[TheSyllogist]

What do you guys think of using practice modes and save states (MAME) when playing shmups?

Some shmup purists might be against it, as they are not included in pcbs and not originally intended to be part of the playing experience. I remember reading Prometheus's article on getting better at shmups and he advocates using save states. They can dramatically increase the success of completing a difficult part of a game.

Do you guys use them? For or against them? Why?

[chempop]

Am I being baited?

[Aquas]

Don't want to take shit from a game? Use save states. Fuck 'em up. Want to take shit like a man? Well, that's alright too.

I go both ways, it depends on the game for me and how vital practice is to 1cc within a reasonable amount of time. The subject has been discussed on these forums time and time again, it will come to preference. Some are more pure and others aren't. And again, it's 2013 for the hobby, and the most effective practice I think, (save states or stage select) will be a clear solution for many.

The main argument against them seems to be that the achievement is greater (or perhaps just feels like a heavier load off) if done without. But with many games having stage select and practice modes, the point seems a bit outdated. Even old Namco arcades like Dragon Spirit/Saber, Rolling Thunder I & II had stage selects built into the normal game, and other arcade STGs as well (though some are hidden).

I understand that owning a PCB there is something to not tainting the experience with save state practice. But at the same time, one gets fed up by sniper tanks. You can credit feed to practice in some cases, or change the difficulty.

[Ed Oscuro]

Please read Zen Koan #43.

[Nasirosuchus]

Considering that most shmups today have stage select and some even allow you to select powerups and bomb stock, I don't see anything wrong with using save states as practice.

PCB purist might not be as accepting of it, but they have the ability to use emulators and save states to practice as well.

[dan76]

I don't like save states or stage select. I never use them, that's why I suck. You will get better quicker if you use either method, but it seems cheap.

Also, I don't like grinding the same stage over and over, it takes any fun out of the game and turns it into work.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Just stuffed Futari back into the machine out of interest. Game is still as ridiculous as I remember it. Utterly impenetrable without complete memorisation of each stage and a second by second route through the game that cannot be deviated from. Case in point. NMNB stage 1+ 2. lost 4 lives stage 3. Reason? can't remember route.. not possible to wing it.

No-one is clearing games like that without grinding stages hundreds of times in practice mode and as such they are a necessary inclusion in ports, and are unfortunately the only way to economically get enough time on latter stages. Without practice mode I can play it again and lose 4 lives on stage 3, the play again and lose 4 lives on stage 3 and then again. All in all I'll get about 10 minutes practice on stage 3 for about 45 minutes worth of play. Extremely uneconomical especially as stages in these games get exponentially harder.

[DrInfy]

Just stuffed Futari back into the machine out of interest. Game is still as ridiculous as I remember it. Utterly impenetrable without complete memorisation of each stage and a second by second route through the game that cannot be deviated from. Case in point. NMNB stage 1+ 2. lost 4 lives stage 3. Reason? can't remember route.. not possible to wing it.

No-one is clearing games like that without grinding stages hundreds of times in practice mode and as such they are a necessary inclusion in ports, and are unfortunately the only way to economically get enough time on latter stages. Without practice mode I can play it again and lose 4 lives on stage 3, the play again and lose 4 lives on stage 3 and then again. All in all I'll get about 10 minutes practice on stage 3 for about 45 minutes worth of play. Extremely uneconomical especially as stages in these games get exponentially harder.

Did you also use all your bombs while doing that? If you are complaining about not remembering route then those deaths weren't accidental mistakes, but you instead got cornered in a bad spot and should've used a bomb. I have somehow hard time believing you used 15 bombs and still died 4 times because you didn't remember the correct route. I'll agree with you that no one scores well in these games without ridiculous amount of practice, but clearing them isn't quite that hard if you're smart about using the resources you have (lifes and bombs in most games).

[DrTrouserPlank]

Just stuffed Futari back into the machine out of interest. Game is still as ridiculous as I remember it. Utterly impenetrable without complete memorisation of each stage and a second by second route through the game that cannot be deviated from. Case in point. NMNB stage 1+ 2. lost 4 lives stage 3. Reason? can't remember route.. not possible to wing it.

No-one is clearing games like that without grinding stages hundreds of times in practice mode and as such they are a necessary inclusion in ports, and are unfortunately the only way to economically get enough time on latter stages. Without practice mode I can play it again and lose 4 lives on stage 3, the play again and lose 4 lives on stage 3 and then again. All in all I'll get about 10 minutes practice on stage 3 for about 45 minutes worth of play. Extremely uneconomical especially as stages in these games get exponentially harder.

Did you also use all your bombs while doing that? If you are complaining about not remembering route then those deaths weren't accidental mistakes, but you instead got cornered in a bad spot and should've used a bomb. I have somehow hard time believing you used 15 bombs and still died 4 times because you didn't remember the correct route. I'll agree with you that no one scores well in these games without ridiculous amount of practice, but clearing them isn't quite that hard if you're smart about using the resources you have (lifes and bombs in most games).

I used a few bombs. Don't know how many but I only ever bomb when I somehow screw up and end up in the wrong place. With the exception of the odd boss pattern where bombing is just easier than hoping you get through it, I don't see bombing as an option. If you plan bombs it means you haven't got an answer for the pattern, and I don't see that as a solution for completing games because you might as well just bomb anything you aren't completely sure about.. but of course you can't.

95% of the time in a game I know inside out, I die through mis-judgment by hitting something that I had already dodged as such, or just nudging a bullet that was a complete irrelevancy. Many hundreds of runs on stages hasn't changed this one bit. As a result of this however, I will often go down with 3 bombs.

I don't really need bombs, and because of the way that I die in most cases I can't use them.

[DrInfy]

I can totally understand as I don't like using bombs either, it's just easy mode that doesn't teach you how play! But still unless you're using all the resources given and purely focusing on survival you really can't complain that the game is too hard to clear, or that clearing requires hundreds of hours, when you are trying something else yourself. Just the bomb the shit out of everything that is not 100% sure and hope to stay alive after you run out.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I don't really need bombs, and because of the way that I die in most cases I can't use them.

This is a terrible excuse, as always. If you die with bombs in stock consistently, then you should remember to bomb more aggressively there. When you're going for your first clear of a game don't be afraid to bomb in cases where you might be able to survive, losing one bomb is far better than a death.

Hoarding bombs too much can easily make a game more frustrating than it actually is.

If you plan bombs it means you haven't got an answer for the pattern, and I don't see that as a solution for completing games because you might as well just bomb anything you aren't completely sure about.. but of course you can't.

Not all patterns are made equal - so long as you have bombs to use, use 'em, then when you're out of bombs you can safely make those riskier dodges without having to worry about a death costing you those additional bombs. You're out of bombs at that point so you should be more comfortable making those dodges. There's also patterns where even when knowing what to do, you may find your success rate so low that you prefer a bomb to the risk. It sounds like you're focusing way too much on saving bombs for the sake of score (bombing doesn't hurt score much in 1.5) and then complaining when the game seems too hard.

Utterly impenetrable without complete memorisation of each stage and a second by second route through the game that cannot be deviated from.

Such nonsense. The game is not nearly as demanding as you claim it is, certainly not in Original, and the whole point of bombs is to secure an escape if you accidentally find yourself trapped, yet you vehemently refuse to learn to use them more.

[ptoing]

DTP: You are projecting so hard it's not even funny. Just because you seem to suck at this stuff does not mean everyone does. Also needing precise routes is bullshit too. Futari is one of the games by Cave in which huge amounts of winging stuff works.

Do you even enjoy playing these games? Or are you just getting frustrated every time you play them because you can not get past how other people seem to be better at them than you (and you seem to try to rationalise that those people somehow must be deceptive about how much they actually play/use practise mode.)

I found that when I just tried to compete with myself, getting better gradually was very visible, and it did not take 100s of runs. Recently for example I played Futari BL Original again after like half a year and managed to improve my score by almost 60mil in the few times I played since then. Not getting a 1CC because I focused on scoring more, but who cares. I managed to get better overall and be more secure during certain boss patterns.

As to practise modes and save states. Whatever helps. Time is a limited and valuable (arguably most valuable) resource, so if you can focus on the bits where you suck, why not do that?

[Hagane]

Stop responding to that idiot, damn.

OT: I want to make the best use of my time, so I always use savestates. They are the best way to practice these games and get consistent at them. Some people say that stage "grinding" is boring, yet I have more fun trying to discover new strategies, tune existing ones and practicing my execution at the hardest parts than going many times through the easy parts I've already mastered. It keeps things fresh. If I got tired of doing a certain part, I just load another problem spot and practice there. Then I try to put everything together in a credit, or play through the rest of the game from a certain savestate.

It's OK if you want to do things the long way, but clearing a game with savestate practice doesn't diminish the accomplishment at all.

[ptoing]

Stop responding to that idiot, damn.

Sorry Wont happen again (TRIES HARD!)

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

I think they are cheap but if they were waved in my face I don't know if I could turn them down. I don't own an X360. That said, my SDOJ clear rules and all of you guys suck because you will cheat with practice mode to get it. Dirty dirty cheaters, dirty dirty cheaters! Neener.

[Erppo]

It kind of depends for me. If I just play something randomly to clear it and it's not all that hard, I usually use practice modes little or not at all. I think the last game I cleared with no use of them whatsoever was Maniac Max in Mushi 1.5. I didn't really use stage practice when I was starting out either.

If I feel like really learning to play some game, I use them all the time, simply because that makes everything so much more fun.

That said, my SDOJ clear rules and all of you guys suck because you will cheat with practice mode to get it. Dirty dirty cheaters, dirty dirty cheaters! Neener.

You're indeed the best player of the forum. I don't think anyone else is capable of that, especially not with more than twice your score.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

That's awesome, you changed what I wrote into something it wasn't and also missed the fact that it was an obvious joke. Even the neener didn't tip you off. Great shot kid that was one in a million.

[ancestral-knowledge]

Owww erppo got troll'd hard

I use stage practise all the time. It's super effective!

[Erppo]

Uhh, what? Nobody cares if that's a joke or not when the same thing gets repeated over and over ad infinitum.

[CoolgyFurlough]

If you aren't using savestates, then you aren't playing to The Full Extent of the Jam.

'nuff said.

[Giest118]

As I wrote in the other thread: I tend to use practice mode to practice the last two stages of a game, and the rest of the game I tend to get enough practice on just by attempts to beat the game.

If a game is too easy to really need practice mode though, I don't bother.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

I've only recently started using save states and for me I can say without doubt it's improved my playing dramatically. If I can clear the first few stages without trying but get massacred every time on the later stages then it makes sense to me to practice those parts where i'm dying. I'm not getting any better replaying those first few stages but I am improving every time I play a later stage that challenges me.

However, no matter how well-planned my practiced routes are things will inevitably go wrong during a proper run. Save-stated practice can't really help you there.

[Meseki]

I rarely ever use practice mode/save states because most of the shmups I play enough to use such I'm not necessarily consistent on the first two stages, so a full run isn't a huge waste of time.
I did use practice mode for Stage 5-B of TWilight INSanity (on Easy) in order to get a B route clear and for Stage 2 Boss of Mushihimesama Original to develop a no-miss route for beating the boss, but aside from those, most of my practice mode time was just playing around doing things like trying to 1CC just the Stage 4/5 Boss of Akashicverse and getting through Stage 2 of Crimson Clover on Unlimited (with Type I and the ten lives practice mode gives); stuff that won't really help that much in a real run due to not being good enough to get that far.

However, I would totally practice Stage 5 of RefRain ~prism memories~ if it had a practice mode. Just getting to the real boss (using Tee) already takes me down to at most two extra lives, and unlike most shmups, I'm very consistent on the first three stages (and practically have a full route for the first stage).

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Imo a run and practice are too separate things. A musician wouldn't just play the whole song when practicing or a footballer only play full 90 minute matches, they break it down into segments that they need to improve on. That's what practice is. Not to knock the purists though if you can get away with just runs that's great.

BTW does any version of MAME give the player a 2 sec invulnerability when loading a save state? It make loading half way through a stage easier rather than be limited to saving when there's a lull in the action.

[Nasirosuchus]

I've only recently started using save states and for me I can say without doubt it's improved my playing dramatically. If I can clear the first few stages without trying but get massacred every time on the later stages then it makes sense to me to practice those parts where i'm dying. I'm not getting any better replaying those first few stages but I am improving every time I play a later stage that challenges me.

However, no matter how well-planned my practiced routes are things will inevitably go wrong during a proper run. Save-stated practice can't really help you there.

It can't help you execute but it can help you to become more familiar with the areas of the game with which you're having trouble. Reacting to it and executing is up to you.

[KAI]

People improving a lot when using them. Sounds like cheating to me.

[NTSC-J]

Imo a run and practice are too separate things. A musician wouldn't just play the whole song when practicing or a footballer only play full 90 minute matches, they break it down into segments that they need to improve on. That's what practice is. Not to knock the purists though if you can get away with just runs that's great.

This is what I wanted to say. I've gone back and forth between my feelings on save states for practice, but ultimately I think they are as acceptable as any other method of learning a game.

Their controversy I think is mainly from the fact that the top players don't use them and instead just play the games in the arcades. I understand why people say that since they're playing with the tools provided to them by the programmers and nothing more, it's more legit. The thing is, these guys also record their runs and use equipment like auto-fire circuits that weren't made available to them by the developers, so they aren't without their own advantages when practicing.

Save states are smart and available to everyone, if people choose not to use them that's their business but I don't think people should be knocked if they do. If a boxer prepares for a fight by skipping rope and hitting the heavy bag, it isn't considered more noble than if the other guy studies video tape of his opponent's fights to look for weaknesses and focuses on those aspects in his training; it's considered being smart.

However, no matter how well-planned my practiced routes are things will inevitably go wrong during a proper run. Save-stated practice can't really help you there.

???

The point of using them is so you know what to do at every point in the game. If you're having success when practicing the stage separately but flub things up during a run, it's an issue of your nerves getting to you or maybe a lack of concentration which is a skill in itself. Usually experience will help you get over those problems.

[chempop]

So it's okay for athletes to use steroids while training because it's a method of becoming stronger?

[Nasirosuchus]

So it's okay for athletes to use steroids while training because it's a method of becoming stronger?

Save states don't enhance someone's reflexes and perception. They just help someone become more familiar with the game. It's no different than a sports team studying film of their opponents. Doing so doesn't enhance the physical attributes or performance of the team. They just help the team to become more familiar with their opponents.

In American Football, teams study films of their opponents and even have members of their practice squad mimic the play of certain members of the opposing teams to get their players ready for what they'll be facing.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

So it's okay for athletes to use steroids while training because it's a method of becoming stronger?

That's a terrible analogy. You're not taking drugs to enhance your body beyond its natural limits when you're practicing a stage, you're simply replaying one section over and over until you're confident with it so that when it comes time for an actual full run you're prepared. Cave added stage practice to its ports so clearly it doesn't see a problem with them.

A musician wouldn't just play the whole song when practicing or a footballer only play full 90 minute matches, they break it down into segments that they need to improve on. That's what practice is. Not to knock the purists though if you can get away with just runs that's great.

This analogy is an extremely apt comparison; a musician doesn't restart a piece of music from scratch if he messes up a difficult section near the end, when you're learning a piece of music you will often spend time replaying the tougher bars alone just to learn a difficult section/solo portion, then when you're confident with it play the entire song.