Rank consoles by shmups

[Skykid]

This is ridiculous.

[Ed Oscuro]

Giest, you are wrong. Thankfully, it doesn't matter. Everybody grab a beer!

[NTSC-J]

I have to go with Skykid on this one, I also did not receive the memo that "gaming console" includes PCs. I look at the list of video game consoles on wiki and I can't find my HP laptop or my Sony Vaio. In fact, every website that lists consoles seems to have made this error.

With this in mind, I would like to change my vote to PC being the best console for STGs because it has all of them. That is what the idea behind this thread was, right?

[Ed Oscuro]

That is what the idea behind this thread was, right?

What I want to know is why the OP lurked for a year while deciding whether to make this thread...and why didn't you grab a beer? Very disappointed.

[Ganelon]

You will note that "a device on which video games are played" is not among these. This means that everyone in this thread is in fact using a colloquial definition of the word "console," which is not recognized by the English dictionary. This means that the definition of what a "console" is is muddled and highly debatable, and you have no basis on which to classify a given device as a console or not a console.

First, I'd advise a more comprehensive dictionary, such as Merriam-Webster's (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/console). Second, dictionaries aren't reliable sources for modern age gaming lingo. Calling a PC a console is about as linguistically accurate and jargonistically nonsensical as calling Madden NFL an RPG. The fact is that the word "console" has remained unchanged when used by gaming media since at least the late 80s and has never referred to computers.

It's possible that the lines will blur in the future, rendering this distinction moot, but there's a difference for the time being. I'm only making a distinction of this seemingly trivial issue because we all need common terms to communicate concepts effectively. If the TC wanted to include computers—of which there's more than just the PC—then it's his responsibility to make that clear to everyone. As for Ed's point, maybe if I liked beer, I'd have one instead of discussing semantics.

[Giest118]

I suppose my issue is that I've been using "gaming console" and "gaming platform" interchangeably. I will refrain from this heinous act in the future.

[Ed Oscuro]

Actually, my point was why does it matter that PCs aren't shumps, and also why does it matter which is the "best"

You can only choose one answer or there's a beatin' in store for ya.

Sorry you haven't encountered a beer to your liking, by the way. I'm sure there's one out there, you just haven't happened upon it yet.

[Ganelon]

Yup, "platform" is indeed the optimal word for what you're describing.

And yeah, mainstream light beer is too bland for me and the popular drafts I've tried are too hoppy. Somewhere... but that's for another topic before I get grilled for ranking beer instead of consoles.

[e_tank]

my top 10 for consoles and handhelds

consoles:
1. xbox 360
2. saturn
3. ps2
4. psx
5. dreamcast
6. pce/cd
7. megadrive/cd
8. sfc
9. famicom
10. sms - fantasy zone 2! (and power strike 2)

handhelds:
1. wonderswan - yes, judgement silversword and cardinal sins alone are just that good
2. psp
3. nds
4. gba
5. gamegear
6. gameboy
7. lynx - zaku saves the lynx from the bottom of my handheld list! zaku is absolutely stunning graphically, but is boring at times and devoid of nearly all challenge once you've seen any given enemy's (simple) attack pattern in advance just once
8. ngpc - iirc has only one shmup, a crap port of cotton
9-10. ???

[Special World]

1. 360
2. Dreamcast
3. Turbografx-16 CD

Never really got to play any shooters on my Saturn when I had one, so I can't speak for that.

[Teufel_in_Blau]

Consoles:
1. 360
2. Dreamcast
3. Saturn

Beer:
1. Guinness
2. Köstritzer
3. Duckstein

[chempop]

1ST PLACE (TIE): Saturn + 360

Saturn has the basically grandest selection and best versions of classics, Konami's, Psikyo's, and nearly everything in between. While PS1 has many of these days too, when it comes to exclusives the Saturn (for me) wins out. I do recognize that it's missing several of the PS1's best, mainly the R-Type games, G-Darius, Gradius Gaiden, and a few of the obscure titles such as Harmful Park. For Vertical games... the Saturn is destroys.

The 360 was never imagined to be a STG console, I certainly never thought I'd own one. Then Deathsmiles came out and Futari was announced and the rest is history. Nearly 3/4 of cave's entire STG library released within a few quick years... for any fan, a dream come true. As incredible as Deathsmiles and Futari were, it just got better and better and other developers started hopping on the 360 train following cave's lead.

2ND PLACE: Megadrive/Genesis

A bit of a controversial choice that might not reflect the grand scheme, but it certainly the choice from my experience. I never collected for the PS1 and PCE, if I had, they would almost certainly be up for this position... PCE might honestly even be #1. Vertical Genesis ports might have some display adjustments and simplified graphics, but I actually find in most cases it doesn't make the games unplayable. Twin Cobra, Raiden Trad, Fireshark, etc all play solid, and the soundtracks are absolutely awesome... the selection goes on and on. For horis you won't be disappointed either.

3RD PLACE: (TIE): Dreamcast + PS2

I'm a bit bias because the Dreamcast got me back into videogames, the PS2 probably has the superior selection as well as some heavy hitters such as the Cave's, GradiusV, etc. Then again, so does DC with the Takumi's, and many near perfect Naomi ports. And the Dreamcast's selection is still growing with Sturmwind, Ghost Blade, and NEOYXY...

[Hagane]

Saturn has the basically grandest selection and best versions of classics, Konami's, Psikyo's, and nearly everything in between.

That would be the PS2, at least for Psikyo.

[DrTrouserPlank]

1. Breville pie maker
2. Whirlpool dishwasher
3. Hotpoint tumble dryer.

[psoslayer]

An PC is no console... but if peeps prefer PC over console it's a valid vote imho.

[Skykid]

An PC is no console... but if peeps prefer PC over console it's a valid vote imho.

Thread lock. Reset.

[Zaarock]

The 360 was never imagined to be a STG console, I certainly never thought I'd own one. Then Deathsmiles came out and Futari was announced and the rest is history. Nearly 3/4 of cave's entire STG library released within a few quick years... for any fan, a dream come true. As incredible as Deathsmiles and Futari were, it just got better and better and other developers started hopping on the 360 train following cave's lead.

Wasn't Ikaruga being announced for XBLA one of the first shmup related things on 360? (sure took it's while to actually get released though.. and it was on DC) Senko no Ronde Rev.X also came out in 2006. Buying a 360 back then and expecting G.Rev and Treasure + other shmup devs to make more releases for the console certainly turned out to be the right choice for me. Quite a few shmup releases before deathsmiles which came out in 2009, it already started to have more shmups than other consoles without Cave's involvement :p

I definitely need to get a Saturn and Dreamcast at some point.

[psoslayer]

An PC is no console... but if peeps prefer PC over console it's a valid vote imho.

Thread lock. Reset.

Put the PC out of the race and re-calculate the result by yourself. Done.

Incredible how some people take the Internet serious.

[sharpfork2]

I guess I need to take a closer look at the Saturn. For me personally the ranking is as follows:
-x360
-PS2
-Dreamcast
-Xbox 1 (emulators and a couple of native ports).

I have a PC in my tate cab too but the title of this thread is "console".

[Ed Oscuro]

1. Breville pie maker
2. Whirlpool dishwasher
3. Hotpoint tumble dryer.

fuck that maytag is best

[Aleksei]

[quote= I think that depends on the tastes of the person playing. But please stop with this Xbox 360 = LOLCAVEBOX nonsense.[/quote]

hear, hear, cheers to that.

[casualcoder]

I don't see the fundamental distinction between consoles and PC. They're both computers, one can just do things other than just play games and videos.

Given that only fundamental difference, would then the PS3 (in its original state anyways) qualify as a console by the standards of some of this threads posters? I mean, its capable of running Linux, which would make it a fully capable computer such as a PC, thereby negating its claim as a genuine console?

Clearly not. That being the case, the inverse should also be true, that a game-playing device such as a computer (PC) could also be regarded as a console.

[Rex Cavalier]

I don't see the fundamental distinction between consoles and PC. They're both computers, one can just do things other than just play games and videos.

Given that only fundamental difference, would then the PS3 (in its original state anyways) qualify as a console by the standards of some of this threads posters? I mean, its capable of running Linux, which would make it a fully capable computer such as a PC, thereby negating its claim as a genuine console?

Clearly not. That being the case, the inverse should also be true, that a game-playing device such as a computer (PC) could also be regarded as a console.

QFT

[louisg]

I don't see the fundamental distinction between consoles and PC. They're both computers, one can just do things other than just play games and videos.

Given that only fundamental difference, would then the PS3 (in its original state anyways) qualify as a console by the standards of some of this threads posters? I mean, its capable of running Linux, which would make it a fully capable computer such as a PC, thereby negating its claim as a genuine console?

Clearly not. That being the case, the inverse should also be true, that a game-playing device such as a computer (PC) could also be regarded as a console.

Not really. *Everything* is a full-fledged computer. NES had a BASIC language and a disk drive for it in Japan. Consoles generally had as much RAM as the previous generation's computers, and they were definitely capable of being a full blown computer system had someone decided to make a full-featured OS for it. Not that it would've been as suitable for it as a computer just due to memory constraints and possibly some architectural differences that I'm not aware of.

The key difference is a design tailored explicitly to play games, at which point everything else is gravy. Or, a design tailored to run applications, at which point playing games is a nice bonus. And then there's the argument that computers are just incredibly homogenized now in a way that consoles still are not and old computers weren't.

That said, I wouldn't consider emulation really that valid in an argument about what shooters are available for a system. Emulation is not only *not* exclusive to computers, but it is generally much non-ideal in terms of performance unless that emulator is tweaked well.

But most importantly, it also doesn't answer the topic's question which is really a platform-specific question -- how hardware works shapes what games are on a system and how those games are written. I think that's actually the most interesting part. Writing a shmup for NES will place different restrictions than writing one for a Genesis, which has different restrictions than writing one for SNES. And it's something you can really feel as you play these older games. So even though the Wii has a great shmup selection and they did an amazing job with their Genesis and Neo Geo emulators compared to their computer counterparts (and probably others), I'd be hesitant to say it's the best shmup system just because those aren't really Wii games.

And by that token, considering Tohou and Siter Skain games.. why not? Those are no less valid than an Amiga or C64 shmup.

[Ed Oscuro]

lol arguing over market placement as if it's the laws of physics

actually I don't know what I was thinking, I meant Whirlpool earlier, not Maytag Maytag is a part of Whirlpool now, though, so you can get the best of both (hopefully)

Whirlpool is better 'cuz they're made right here. Don't know anything about those Samsungs you see all over the place.

[casualcoder]

The key difference is a design tailored explicitly to play games, at which point everything else is gravy. Or, a design tailored to run applications, at which point playing games is a nice bonus.

That distinction is tenuous at best given that current "consoles" and "PCs" are designed to run games and applications depending on the purpose YOU, the end user, ascribe to it. There is nothing fundamental within the machinery, or even the software, that separates the two. What you are saying is essentially that marketing determines the nature of a device. That seems absurd given that you can market ANYTHING as ANYTHING. It is completely arbitrary. But you are not arguing that it's arbitrary. You are arguing a type of essentialism that *this* device is, at it's core, different from *that* device. Restrictions are also arbitrary. But even if they were not, does a console port not then qualify as a console game, given that it's restrictions were originally shaped outside of that particular console?

I think what's really at play is that, especially for those of us who have been around since the advent of PCs and consoles, there is a particular affinity given to the history of each device. And it makes some of us feel like our beloved device is becoming blurred with everything else available. Kind of like how Blues blended with Rock and eventually every other genre. The purists out there want to hold onto a specific history, probably to preserve pleasant memories.

[scrilla4rella]

Avoiding the, "are PCs consoles?" debate I'd like to post my list. In general I have to agree with Skykid, the Saturn is king. Arcade shooters were perfected during the 8, 16, and 32-bit consoles. without these games modern bullet hell wouldn't exist. And the best STGs of those eras, IMO, are on these consoles:

1)Saturn
2)PC-Engine and CD
3)Mega Drive
4)PSX

I guess my fifth spot would be DC or XBOX360. 360 will probably best DC in the long run for me but I've only just recently got a 360. As of now I've put more time in my DC

[Ed Oscuro]

That distinction is tenuous at best given that current "consoles" and "PCs" are designed to run games and applications depending on the purpose YOU, the end user, ascribe to it.

You mean according to the purpose the manufacturer intended and Congress has restricted you to. Otherwise, yes...

[louisg]

The key difference is a design tailored explicitly to play games, at which point everything else is gravy. Or, a design tailored to run applications, at which point playing games is a nice bonus.

That distinction is tenuous at best given that current "consoles" and "PCs" are designed to run games and applications depending on the purpose YOU, the end user, ascribe to it. There is nothing fundamental within the machinery, or even the software, that separates the two. What you are saying is essentially that marketing determines the nature of a device. That seems absurd

It actually has the most to do with the operating system and how it's tuned, as well as the predictability of the hardware. Since game designers insist on shipping games for general-purpose operating systems and for no hardware in particular, then this is a pretty big factor. Last time we went into this discussion it turned out that some PC gamers were afraid to enable vsync because it was adding hundreds of milliseconds of lag. Just as one example. So.. yeah, it's fairly sub-optimal.

[Ed Oscuro]

Funny story, activating vsync in Eternity Engine (a BOOM-compatible source port for dehacked DOOM WADs) doesn't evidence obvious lag, and while using SDL too. It really comes down to how you use the hardware. It's quite possible to produce a system (RTOSes anyone?) that is a "PC" but performs with the fluidity of a computer. A good example of this is FPSes - almost all of them perform better (or can be made to perform better) on a PC than on console. OS overhead doesn't have to be crippling. Of course many console games tear, too.

So, again it looks like a distinction that often doesn't demonstrate a play difference (my bitching about vsync in most PC games notwithstanding).