Tropes vs Women in video games

[BryanM]

how much "complex" videogames (the opposite of mobile apps) are played by females? The only genre I know there is a similar number of female and male gamers is on the RPGs.

This is as silly as saying DS or Wii gamers aren't "real" gamers, because only Gears of War is a real game.

Well, not so much "as" since that is actually what you're saying here.

Just because violence isn't the only solution in Civilization, doesn't make it a "fake game".

[O. Van Bruce]

how much "complex" videogames (the opposite of mobile apps) are played by females? The only genre I know there is a similar number of female and male gamers is on the RPGs.

This is as silly as saying DS or Wii gamers aren't "real" gamers, because only Gears of War is a real game.

Well, not so much "as" since that is actually what you're saying here.

Just because violence isn't the only solution in Civilization, doesn't make it a "fake game".

I consider any Mario Game a "complex" game... I've played plenty of Wii or DS titles. Although there are titles like Cooking Mama or any Mario Party Game that fails to get beyond the point in which you are in front of a challenge that require some effort or skill.

Curiously enough, the only FPS I've played consistently is Team Fortress 2 I'm not interested in macho military first person shooters

PD: My favourite victory in Civ is the cultural, with few cities and as little wars as possible.

[Skykid]

Being knee deep in Monster Hunter right now, I think it's safe to say that Japanese antipathy extends to the entirety of humanity as a whole, and not just a small subset.

Perhaps this is true. They're probably just more vocal. And this 17 year ol... I mean 20yr old... ah fuck it, I'm drunk, who's counting.

The question is why are you posting here about feminism and the wickedness of men instead of talking with her...

Talking I've done . It's all I'm allowed to do.

[BryanM]

'xactly.

I don't expect everyone to enjoy the before-mentioned Monster Hunter, or the best game of all time Dangun Feveron (there's no debating that fact); why be so mean to Angry Birds?

South Korea may have already passed this event horizon, and they're probably not playing a pick-up slingshot game, after all.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I consider any Mario Game a "complex" game...

Mario is a mugger. Damsel in distress is only an excuse for looting in his case.
What women appear to enjoy is co-op in the likes of Diablo. Also, Heroes of Might & Magic.

[greg]

When will people, specially women, understand that you can't try to equallize everything in the world? There is a range of things a woman can do and a men can do... and obviously, there is a common range for both sexes. how about we start defining that common range?

That's true feminism for me. Not women trying to become ruthless individuals that hate any men that likes women because they are cute or sexy... hell, women are more fatty, has rounder faces, softer expressions and voices that your average male and that, in our animal subconscious, is considered cute/sexy. lots of hormones defines our behaviour and, although the power of "culture" is quite strong, things like a man being attracted to a supple breast or a woman to a muscular body is something inscribed in our genes.

Exactly. This sums up what I was trying to say last night (yet more soberly).

[Hagane]

The only reason why there are few women playing games is because they are indoctrinated from childhood to be subservient instead of competitive. So they are given toys that encourage birthing, housework and looking good to get a good husband instead. It's something the established society order does, not their genes.

In the (not so far) past women didn't even receive education because males thought they were barely above animals and incapable of learning. But they have proven they can be as proficient as men in intellectual jobs. If girls were given the same toys as boys, we would see more women playing games, and more of them would play at a competitive level. As long as physical strength is not involved, they can be as good as men (best example: the Polgar sisters).

[Udderdude]

The only reason why there are few women playing games

BZZT wrong. http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp

[Hagane]

I don't think social/smartphone games qualify as the type of games I was talking about in my post.

[R79]

I agree with Brooker (of course, lol), the only way some of these appalling troglodytes are going to change their views and horrid statements online, is through, y'know, growing up a bit, putting down the game controller, leaving the house and actually interacting with people a bit. Middle-class, white male privilege feeling under threat is probably another factor here.

Any sensible woman should know the hatred is often coming from a man who has seriously failed in life, and just sits there spamming from his screen, all his bitter contempt for things that are wonderful and pure.

Ironically, in all 3 of the sad, loser genres I heavily play (shooters, fighters and JRPGs), there's an absolute plethora of really strong female characters, who look fantastic, and not just in an erotic sense.

Perhaps Final Fantasy X-2 was the turning point?

[Squire Grooktook]

The blank slate is a myth. There are observed physical differences between male and female brains.

I think videogames are firmly marketed at heterosexual males because videogaming is ultimately a toy on which you spend hours of your life killing things for imaginary kudos points. Frankly, women know better, and as such I assume their commitment to gaming is far more fleeting when it does occur.

Noooooooooooooooooo.

I refuse to believe that my gender or hormones determines my love of games. You can't make me believe it! YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!


[serious]Also Skykid, that statement is kinda silly. Because all art is basically asking you to have an emotional reaction to something imaginary. Saying woman know better then to get invested in an imaginary adventure, you might as well say they know better then to get involved in a movie or a work of literature.

Sure, testosterone might fuel an interest in young boys to play action games as they are growing up. But as I've grown up, I've realized that there is far more to action and adventure games then "WOO! GUNS! TITS! EXPLOSIONS! VIOLENCE!". The true beauty of action games like shmups and whatnot, is the sense of immersion. The merging of player and avatar, to the point that you really do feel like your a part of this strange and alien world.

Heck, when I was a kid, I was more interested in games that had an exploration/puzzle element then action games. Placing action games above all else has been the result of my maturing and coming to terms with what I really cherished in video games.[/serious]

[Skykid]

^ Judging by all the comments in the thread I'd say it's a very common perception. I appreciate your immersion and experience sentiment, but my entire life I think I've known three girls seriously into gaming. Obviously there are plenty more (not including mobile phone stuff) but I'd still wager males are vastly more invested in the hobby.

For further proof, check out the male to female ratio of this forum.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yes I know. But in situations where it's hard to conclude what the cause of a phenomenon is, I generally look to a combination of all the factors rather then a singular one being the most powerful. Like in this case, I don't think it's so much "Woman are from Venus and do not like the things we like" so much as it's hormone/genetic predisposition + cultural stuff + games being marketed to men = lower percentage of woman playing games overall.

I don't think that any one of these factors is so insurmountable by itself. I mean, my Mom loves the Marvel cinematic universe and makes sure to not miss a single entry, even though those movies are basically the distilling of everything people think of when contemplating testosterone fueled one liner ridden action films. On the flip side, I've met many men who absolutely fucking hate action films in all their forms and refuse to watch them for any reason (Me, I'm sort of in between. I'm skeptical of the action film genre in general, but I'll enjoy it if it's well executed.) To say that testosterone vs estrogen governs what we like or don't like so strongly is very questionable IMO.

Anyway, personally, I'm inclined to believe that as video games gradually become more wide spread as a hobby, more and more kids male and female will be growing up with classics like Mario, Zelda, and whatnot. And one day almost everyone will be playing video games just like almost everyone watches tv or reads books today. Not everyone will be a "gamer" just like not everyone today is a film buff or a couch potato or belongs to a book club, but it will be more widely recognized as art and entertainment.

Of course, the disturbing alternative is that video games go the way of comic books and become even more isolated and niche as time goes on. But the way things are going, I don't see that happening honestly.

For the present at least, I don't think anybody should worry about getting girls into games or anything silly like that. We're all mature human beings looking for entertainment in life, we can all pick what intrigues us, and to each his own.


Also one more thing, the thing that disturbed me in your post is that you used self deprecating humor to describe your hobby. Now don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of self deprecating humor being used on one's self, but I feel that people should try to describe the things they love in the most beautiful way possible, to try and communicate why they love it and a bit about who they are in the process. Spread the love.

[shmuppyLove]

For further proof, check out the male to female ratio of this forum.

Rule 37

[Hagane]

If women don't play games because of their genes, does that mean that the girls who do play are mutants?

[trap15]

Everyone is a mutant.

So, possibly.

[Squire Grooktook]

Everyone is a mutant.

I think I can agree with this.

[trap15]

Well, I actually wasn't kidding, but sure.

Nobody has the exact same genes other than twins.

[mesh control]

good thread.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Women play cards. That and epistolography are things they don't even need men for.
I didn't hear about any female chess masters, but maybe the male chess gaming population is just bigger, or female chess players aren't quite as famous for similar reasons TV doesn't show male volleyball players (unfathomable to me as I find men's volleyball way more spectacular).

[drauch]

good thread.

If you build it, they will come.

[mesh control]

Anita Sarkeesian is giving a lecture at my school next month.
I will go.

[MX7]

Fuck, I just read the Wikipedia article on this woman: the Internet really is a pit of scum. With hatred of women so endemic across the internet, no wonder women are so reluctant to speak up. I know at least one woman who's been discouraged from posting on these forums, and this is by far the most agreeable place I've found on the internet to talk about games.

[Mortificator]

I know several males who've been discouraged from posting on these forums.

The tropes video doesn't have comments enabled, but there's commentary in the response which is more interesting than the response itself.

[Skykid]

I checked it out:

On May 17, 2012, Sarkeesian began a Kickstarter campaign to fund a new series of short videos that would examine gender tropes in video games. The campaign was featured as a campaign of note on the official Kickstarter blog,[11] and reached its funding goal of $6,000 within 24 hours.[12] In June 2012, prominent video game developer Bungie invited Sarkeesian to its offices to present on the creation of female characters in games.[13] The first video, titled "The Damsel in Distress", was released on March 7, 2013.[14]
The project triggered a campaign of sexist harassment that Slate described as an "absolute avalanche of misogynist abuse." Slate wrote that "[e]very access point they could exploit was used to try to get to her ..."[15] The New York Times reported that she was e-mailed images of herself being raped by video game characters.[16] Attempts were made to hack her Twitter and Google accounts, doctored images of her were posted online, negative comments were posted to her YouTube and Facebook pages, and an Internet game was created – Beat Up Anita Sarkeesian – where users could punch her image until the screen turned red.[17] Her Wikipedia article was repeatedly vandalized with images of sex acts.[18] Her website was subjected to denial-of-service attacks, and there were efforts to obtain and distribute her personal contact information.[19] The people behind the campaign would return to the forums they normally posted on to award each other points for the abuse; Sarkeesian argued that they had "gamified" misogyny.[16]
Sarkeesian posted examples of the harassment on her blog, and supporters responded by donating over $150,000 to her project.[17] The situation helped to bring the issue of pervasive sexual harassment in the video game culture to mainstream media attention, with discussions occurring in a range of publications and outlets, including The New York Times, The Guardian and New Statesman.[20] Sarkeesian told the news show 16x9 that online harassment and threats have become the norm for female gamers.[21] She told The New York Times: "The gaming industry is actually in the process of changing. That's a really positive thing, but I think there is a small group of male gamers who feel like gaming belongs to them, and are really terrified of that change happening."[17]

Is anyone really surprised? We've already covered that videogaming miscreants are raging misogynists online to get over their own insecurities when in the vicinity of flesh and blood females.

Also, she made $156k out of the shitstorm, so it's not all downhill. One wonders why a $6 grand kickstarter was necessary for the video initially, since it presents about three hours worth of research.

Utterly ridiculous and totally expected backlash aside, it still doesn't change the fact she made a frankly silly video about the sexist nature of videogame damsels in distress, focusses largely on a nascent period in the 1980's, and nitpicks the shit out of several innocent works.

Nothing wrong with feminism, everything wrong with poor arguments.

[Mortificator]

Unfortunately, that kind of disgusting retaliation is likely to convince one that the arguments eliciting it were especially insightful.

On recent games with crappy female portrayal, I like the SA piece replacing Lara with Indy in the new Tomb Raider. I guess this is part of the positive change in the game industry.

[Squire Grooktook]

This might be off topic from the current road this discussion, but I just wanted to mention two things that I should have said in my previous post

1: Action games for me aren't JUST about the immersion, I don't want to misrepresent myself. I also feel that the genre can trigger a wealth of emotions through pure interactivity. Excitement, achievement, immersion, hyperactivity, or just your brain feeling good from being extremely active and utilizing creativity and skills that are often left to atrophy otherwise.

2: My belief is that video games are art, and are capable of every reaction and emotion that art is capable of. I believe art is universal and capable of being enjoyed by all human beings, so to pass off games as "not for woman" is wrong IMO.

Just wanted to clear that up.

[Mischief Maker]

lso, she made $156k out of the shitstorm, so it's not all downhill. One wonders why a $6 grand kickstarter was necessary for the video initially, since it presents about three hours worth of research.

For this:



My view is, if the conclusions she draws from this pile of toys she bought with other people's money draws a collective, "No shit, Sherlock," then she's cheated the kickstarter system just as much as Penny Arcade.

[system11]

Aww bless, look - they got a woman to pose next to some games she knows nothing about <3

[Squire Grooktook]

Am I the only one who finds most of those games incredibly uninteresting?