XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Aatos]

Yeah you are right, if you can find a good composite sync source inside the SNES and swap it in for the composite video pin on the video out port then that should work.

Didn't occur to me that the SNES might have such a source somewhere on the inside.

... I really appreciate you guys trying to help but I really didn't understand almost anything you just said .. Um, any good pages to brush up on the differences between the different syncs? What do you think the cable uses now if it isn't either composite sync or luma sync? Why doesn't that current thing work?

Kamiboy, so I need some part from.. SNES? From the board? And I need to take it and do what with it exactly, and this is the only way? Coincidentally I do happen to have a broken US SNES board lying around somewhere that might even have that part, but so far I've never soldered anything / never worked with anything on boards, etc., so I'd still prefer some external way, opposed to.. well, learning to do all this from the beginning?

[Fudoh]

If luma is available on PAL N64 units, then it's definitely the best solution before buying anyhing else.

Luma is part of the s-video signal. You can either change a pin in the SNES-end of the cable, of swap the line internally, so the cable uses luma instead of composite video without modding the cable.

[kamiboy]

... I really appreciate you guys trying to help but I really didn't understand almost anything you just said .. Um, any good pages to brush up on the differences between the different syncs? What do you think the cable uses now if it isn't either composite sync or luma sync? Why doesn't that current thing work?

Kamiboy, so I need some part from.. SNES? From the board? And I need to take it and do what with it exactly, and this is the only way? Coincidentally I do happen to have a broken US SNES board lying around somewhere that might even have that part, but so far I've never soldered anything / never worked with anything on boards, etc., so I'd still prefer some external way, opposed to.. well, learning to do all this from the beginning?

Bah, I thought we were talking about the SNES, so disregard what I said about that system, I meant the N64.

Basically what you need to do is either open up your N64 and do some modifications to the video/audio output port, or just open up the console end of the SCART cable you use and do the rewiring there.

I am not sure, but I believe the housing of Nintendo AV cables are easy to open. Then all you would need to do is to desolder the composite video wire from its pin and solder it onto the luma pin and you should be golden.

I've never opened the console end of a SNES/N64 cable, so I have no idea how much work that is. Or if the luma pin is even connected on the console end of a SCART cable.

[mart_ben]

Hi Guys

Newbie here after some advice. I have just purchased an XRGB Framemeister from Solaris in Japan.

I have it connected via the HDMI out to a SHARP 40" LCD TV & I have also tried on my Optoma Projector. The problem I'm experiencing is red dots scatted on the screen. The actual menu system of the Framemeister displays fine but as soon as I try to use any device with it I seem to get these red dots appear. I have tried various input sources.

1) Jap Sega Saturn via RGB SCART
2) PC Engine Duo R via composite
3) DVD Player (connected to HDMI In)

All of them work but appear with these red dots. Does any body have any idea what this could be? I have downloaded the latest firmware v1.7a and have tried altering ALL the settings on the menu but I can't seem to shift these damn red dots.

If anyone has any advice I would really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.

Mart

[RGB32E]

Converting the composite video to composite sync should help...... it certainly get's rid of the checkerboard effect on the NTSC N64.

Did you observe the checkerboard interference with an official RGB cable?

[fagin]

Converting the composite video to composite sync should help...... it certainly get's rid of the checkerboard effect on the NTSC N64.

Did you observe the checkerboard interference with an official RGB cable?

I can't remember if it was present on my official lead as my official lead is PAL and my N64 is NTSC. The image using the PAL cable is very dull, so I used another RGB SCART cable I had without all the Nintendo bullshit in the SCART end. Switched to composite sync on the unofficial lead and checkerboard was removed.

[fagin]

If luma is available on PAL N64 units, then it's definitely the best solution before buying anyhing else.

PIN 7 on the AV may provide it.

[Aatos]

If luma is available on PAL N64 units, then it's definitely the best solution before buying anyhing else.

Luma is part of the s-video signal. You can either change a pin in the SNES-end of the cable, of swap the line internally, so the cable uses luma instead of composite video without modding the cable.

By the way, why does it need to be the SNES/console end, not the scart end? (Is it because PIN7/luma isn't connected to anything currently?) It seems the scart end can be opened easily while as far as I can tell, the SNES/console connector end is practically welded shut.. would anyone know if there's a some practical way of getting inside one? EDIT: I also found a N64 composite cable that has the console end so that it could probably be opened easier, but looking inside the connector it seems there's only like 3 pins whereas the RGB lead is full of them, so it probably can't be used as a substitute..

[Joelepain]

Hi Aatos,

I have myself a PAL RGB modded N64 (a french one more specifically, that's important). I don't have the checkerboard problem that you have but I have huge amount of screen tearing, but only when I play NTSC games (through passport III plus or 64drive, doesn't change a thing). Pal games work fine. I think it's because PAL n64 have internal clocks slightly different than NTSC ones, and NTSC games seem to run closer to 61hz than 60hz, according to the xrgb mini status screen.
The sync level option didn't solve my problem so I bought a sync strike and now it works perfectly.
I think you could try sync strike or the luma solution that other people told you, but you have to be careful :
There is two PAL n64 model, the "generic" one, named NUS-001(EUR) under the deck, and the "french" one named NUS-001(FRA). You have to check this before trying the luma solution because the french ones don't have s-video (that's ironic because as it, it's the worst n64 because only composite available, but at the same time it's the easiest model to RGB mod)

[Aatos]

Hi Aatos,

I have myself a PAL RGB modded N64 (a french one more specifically, that's important). I don't have the checkerboard problem that you have but I have huge amount of screen tearing, but only when I play NTSC games (through passport III plus or 64drive, doesn't change a thing). Pal games work fine. I think it's because PAL n64 have internal clocks slightly different than NTSC ones, and NTSC games seem to run closer to 61hz than 60hz, according to the xrgb mini status screen.
The sync level option didn't solve my problem so I bought a sync strike and now it works perfectly.
I think you could try sync strike or the luma solution that other people told you, but you have to be careful :
There is two PAL n64 model, the "generic" one, named NUS-001(EUR) under the deck, and the "french" one named NUS-001(FRA). You have to check this before trying the luma solution because the french ones don't have s-video (that's ironic because as it, it's the worst n64 because only composite available, but at the same time it's the easiest model to RGB mod)

Thanks, that was informative. I'm sure I don't have the famous French one, since I'm pretty sure it would've been advertised as such.. yeah, NUS-001(EUR) it is. Incidentally, do you or anyone else know how the mod has been done when the unit ISN'T the french (or ntsc) one? All over the internet there is discussion how it needs to be the french one or ntsc to be able to mod to rbg, but someone clearly figured out another way (albeit more difficult? How?) ? I know it's a shame I don't know too much about my own unit but there doesn't seem to be much at all info about this on the web..

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I actually read somewhere that the generic PAL unit doesn't have composite sync connected to the output at all leaving the luma my only option as far as I understand..

[Joelepain]

I might be wrong, but I think the PAL n64 have a video encoder that regroup the DAC and the AMP/transcoder : the encoder take the digital rgb signal and output composite and s-video, and there is no analog rgb at all). So your rgb mod is very strange (perhaps a custom DAC). Maybe it's the reason of the checkerboard.
NTSC and French n64 have two seperate chips : a DAC that output low level analog rgb, and another chip that take this and output composite and svideo (and amplified rgb for the french ones).

I think before trying to buy or solder anything, you should try your n64 on other systems (various televisions and video processors) to be sure it's not the mod that is faulty.

But as I said, I might be wrong.

[pyrotek85]

Might want to open it up and verify what kind of mod was used exactly as well. As others have said there are a number of revisions and some need something specific.

[Konsolkongen]

Yes, those N64s that couldn't normally be RGB modified, now can with a custom built DAC. Information here:
http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/sh ... ed-PAL-N64

I did this to two US N64s this week, and if I have the time I will do it to a PAL one next week.
It looks decent enough. The picture is quite soft and there is some noticeable screen flickering going on, but I'm lead to believe that might be a power supply issue. But it could also be the XRGB-Mini, which is super anal about flickering anyway, because it doesn't show when I tried it on a CRT. No checkerboard from what I've seen, but I've really only been playing Sin and Punishment on it. Will get Kirby 64 next week, so it should be pretty easy to spot a checkerboard on a game like that.

[Fudoh]

By the way, why does it need to be the SNES/console end, not the scart end? (Is it because PIN7/luma isn't connected to anything currently?)

that's right.

If your RGB cable can't be opened on the SNES's side, you're out of luck. You have open up the system and rewire one of the contacts. That's a very easy mod though, so nothing to be afraid of. While you're at it, post some pics of your RGB mod. Would be interesting to see how an older PAL RGB mod like this looks like.

[Aatos]

Yes, those N64s that couldn't normally be RGB modified, now can with a custom built DAC. Information here:
http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/sh ... ed-PAL-N64

I did this to two US N64s this week, and if I have the time I will do it to a PAL one next week.
It looks decent enough. The picture is quite soft and there is some noticeable screen flickering going on, but I'm lead to believe that might be a power supply issue. But it could also be the XRGB-Mini, which is super anal about flickering anyway, because it doesn't show when I tried it on a CRT. No checkerboard from what I've seen, but I've really only been playing Sin and Punishment on it. Will get Kirby 64 next week, so it should be pretty easy to spot a checkerboard on a game like that.

Thanks, that was surely interesting to read. Now that I've been googling around, I'm not entirely sure if it's the same pattern as what is commonly referred to as checkerboard.. it's not as even as some that I've seen and there's definately annoying flicker going on, it's like the checkerboard is constantly moving.. anyone know if the common checkerboard is like this?

So this would point out more to the same flickering effect that you described, can you take a picture of it/describe it better? Do you have any explanation why different PSUs would be any different? In case you're actually referring to the box that is attached to the end (it does have external psu, right?), I think I've tried two but my effect persists.. on the other hand the serious tearing issues still point out to a syncing issue that could probably be corrected with the luma switch. However I think if I go meddling inside the machine it might be tougher for me to return it should the need arise.. I asked my supplier Wolfsoft about the issue, see what he responds. In the meantime, let me know Konsolkongen if you come up with anything new/try this mod out with PAL console etc. And everyone, thanks again for looking into this!

[howami]

Hey guys,

maybe you can help me a bit further. I have a Neo Geo AES and Neo Geo MVS. The AES runs very smooth on the Framemeister.
But i have a big Problem with MVS. At first i had no signal so i turned off the vsync and started to search the sync Levels.
28,29 and 30 have some kind of Signals but they are shacking. No steady Picture at all.

Do you have anymore hints for me?
Thx

[Joelepain]

Hi Aatos,

To reassure you (and for my own knowledge too), I tried to use luma instead of composite video on my rgb mod, with really basic wiring (not even soldering), and the problem of tearing that I have with NTSC games is gone, just like when I use the sync strike. And the sync level in the xrgb was on 10.
I normally don't have your checkerboard issue, but because I did some basic wiring (like wrapping wires around resistor leg, pushing wires into scart pins, without any soldering at all, that kind of dirty stuff), the quality of the picture wasn't as good as with the official cable properly plugged. As I touched the wires and slightly moved them, the pictures got sometimes a little blurry, sometimes some color delay appeared, and sometimes I got some kind of a checkerboard, but it was really hard to see, and it look more like oblique rolling parasites, it's hard to explain. So maybe you should check for a bad soldering somewhere too.

But you definitively should try the luma thing, and if you don't feel able to do it, there is still the lm1881/sync strike solution.

[gatsu25]

I am interested in getting a Framemeister, but I would like to know how well it works with old Japanese PC stuff. How well does it work with FM Towns and X68000 Computers? Do you need anything special for it to work well? Also, how about the FM Towns Marty? Thanks for any advice/help.

[Krakko]

Anyone have any clue as to when we might expect the next firmware update? It was teased about a month ago now.

[Konsolkongen]

So this would point out more to the same flickering effect that you described, can you take a picture of it/describe it better?

I can't take a picture of it. It's a wave-like pattern that moves up the screen at variable speed. It starts really fast, but after about five minutes it slows down to the point where it's almost not noticeable anymore, and then it speeds up again.

Do you have any explanation why different PSUs would be any different? In case you're actually referring to the box that is attached to the end (it does have external psu, right?), I think I've tried two but my effect persists..

Nope sorry. I was just suggested replacing my PSU as a possible solution to the problem. I remember that someones image problems with their SNES was solved by replacing the PSU, so it's not impossible it would work. But then again, if you have tried two different PSUs then it would be pretty strange if both were bad.

In the meantime, let me know Konsolkongen if you come up with anything new/try this mod out with PAL console etc. And everyone, thanks again for looking into this!

I will

[Rock Man]

Will the Framemeister defeat white flashes that occur on PS1 & PS2 games? I get that a lot on my XRGB-3 if I play games with high signal levels like KOF XI. Here's a good example from the Orochi series: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnGUO9iR86g

So what's the situation with the FM? Say would an LM1881 sync stripper help any?

[fagin]

I experienced no sync issues yesterday testing one of the GG series of games on the PS2. I'm using the retro accessories din to SCART cables that house a sync circuit.

[Rock Man]

As it turns out the XRGB-3 can't handle it. Everytime I try to play KOF XI on PS2 I see blinking every where. I see blinking during the intro, I get blinking on the versus screen, blinking at player select and it all goes to hell if I'm on the main menu screen. SNK just had to make the main menu screen all light colors. >_<* It's reoccurring white flashes each time I'm there. Thing that gets me is, I don't have these problems with the Saturn, Dreamcast or the Neo CD. It's always the PS systems such a bummer.

My friend has a Framemeister guess I'll ask him to bring his by here so I could try it on KOF. I'll report my findings soon as I'm done.

[Fudoh]

As it turns out the XRGB-3 can't handle it. Everytime I try to play KOF XI on PS2 I see blinking every where

It's been some time, but I played KOFXI on XRGB-3 without any dropouts. If your signal levels are too high, you can set the input termination to 220 ohm instead of 75ohm and readjust the picture brightness instead. This, or you need to modifiy your cable. Either way, it should not happen on either the XRGB or the Mini and you don't need a LM1881 for a PS2.

[Rock Man]

As it turns out the XRGB-3 can't handle it. Everytime I try to play KOF XI on PS2 I see blinking every where

It's been some time, but I played KOFXI on XRGB-3 without any dropouts. If your signal levels are too high, you can set the input termination to 220 ohm instead of 75ohm and readjust the picture brightness instead. This, or you need to modifiy your cable. Either way, it should not happen on either the XRGB or the Mini and you don't need a LM1881 for a PS2.

Negative, already tried switching over the SCART termination and lowered the brightness yet the problem continually to persists. I've used modded PS cables with resisters and polymer caps but nothing seems to do it. My TV must be really stubborn. It likes the PC Engine, CPS2 and the NeoGeo but hates the PS2.

What's your advice for any additional cable mods? What else could I possibly do to lower the signal level?

[fagin]

For anyone tempted by the mini but unsure....... perhaps this video will make up your decision to buy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqW03NvDXmY

[Konsolkongen]

Nice review

You should really try composite from something like a Mega Drive or a Neo Geo (anything with a Sony CXA1145 encoder really), because that will look absolutely ass. The PC-Engine has, by far, the best composite picture I have seen on any console. Not that thats saying a lot
But I thought that would be worth mentioning in an update since all other composite signals will look worse than the one you tried.

Also, I'm not sure if you tried this or not. But you can effectively use the same settings you use for 480p for 480i games to improve picture quality. V_Scaler at 7 and Sharpness at 1

[Fudoh]

You should really try composite from something like a Mega Drive or a Neo Geo (anything with a Sony CXA1145 encoder really), because that will look absolutely ass.

and try a PAL NES via composite for the best non-RGB quality you've seen yet from a NES Set the XRGB to 576p50 output.

[Overkill]

Negative, already tried switching over the SCART termination and lowered the brightness yet the problem continually to persists. I've used modded PS cables with resisters and polymer caps but nothing seems to do it. My TV must be really stubborn. It likes the PC Engine, CPS2 and the NeoGeo but hates the PS2.

What's your advice for any additional cable mods? What else could I possibly do to lower the signal level?

Rock Man, if i remember right (i now use mini) i never have solved the sync loss in white flashes, with adicional cables or hardware. For the PS2 case i used an scart RGB to the Game in port, and in games like KOF i change from RGB to YePbr in the ps2 menu and in the Xrgb 3 menu (Xrgb3 allows this using the scart/game in port). And then the games are ok. Alternatively you can use B0 mode just for that games, but it won't look so good.

[Fudoh]

fagin, just watching your video - a few comments:

I actually don't need or use a sync stripper on ANY of my systems and that includes a lot of systems. Did you actually encounter any problems in using the Mini without a sync stripper ? Not according to your review, right ? I think Micomsoft paid good attention to this point and made sure no pure sync is needed - especially since they brought the sync level function with the last update.

It's interesting that you mention different responsiveness in different deinterlacing modes, since lag tests with the various modes showed the same delay. What you can try on 480i titles is to stay on picture mode (just weaves the field) and adjust the V_SCALER level instead until the field offset disappears. This is something which works fine for some 480i titles like Sengoku Blade or Dragon Blaze on PS2.

If you upscale 480p, then 720p vs. 1080p on the output makes a huge difference. Definitely use 1080p if you don't need scanlines.

PS: put away that toilet paper
PPS: in case it got lost before: try a PAL NES using composite and 576p output. Looks surprisingly well.