Pope Resigns

[antron]

i seems to me at least that atheists are not to much different than people who follow traditional (or personal) religions. The believe something about the nature of the universe without any proof. Specifically, that god does not exist. They leave no maybes. If they did they would fall under agnosticism (at least that's they way I currently understand it).

That's correct in a strict sense, but in a practical sense if we say "agnostic" it usually tends to convey the idea that we're "unsure" and thus open to conversion (which is almost always attempted via bogus pseudo-arguments and other philosophical shenanigans) rather than being pretty damn sure but open to evidence as a matter of principle. Bertrand Russell and Richard Dawkins have written and spoken about this.

Does your existence strike you as something profound? Mine (and your's) certainly does to me. I tried to deny it for a while, but gave up, and it seems that was truly the end of atheism for me. But being unable to accept the god I was taught, I simply accepted a different definition of god. This pleases me greatly, as I think more and more people will do this over time, and will lead to the practical destruction of the traditional religions that so much deserve that (in my opinion, but I'm sure there are a few that don't). The statistics of religiously affiliated people in the US are clearly showing this trend. Respondents use the word "spiritual", but I think they have replaced God with their own.

[Lord Satori]

I've never been much for organized religion, teachings vary so greatly from church to church that sometimes you wonder if they're the same religion. I had a friend who was taught that the ACLU stood for Anti-Christ Lawyers Union, and it was their mission to snuff out christianity.
Not only this, but the general biggotry, closed mindedness, and delusions that come with it are dangerous to modern society. It's not that I hate religion PERIOD, I'm open to the possibility of there being a god. In fact, I'm pretty sure some aspect the afterlife awaits us, given the evidence I've seen for myself over the years. I've grown up with science, but its not all I believe in. As Einstein said "Science without religion is boring. Religion without science is blind." It's far better to grown up with both side by side, than to grow up with an ancient prehistoric text whose teachings might not even make sense for modern society. Not to mention the fact that the book begins and ends with bogus fairytales.

(Wow, this post is all over the place. Thats how I post, I guess)

[Skykid]

Well it'll probably last longer than the Vita.

Masterful.

[Ex-Cyber]

Does your existence strike you as something profound?

Yes. I have no idea how that implies anything divine (in the literal sense), though.

[Friendly]

Does your existence strike you as something profound?

Yes. I have no idea how that implies anything divine (in the literal sense), though.

That's because it doesn't.

[antron]

Does your existence strike you as something profound?

Yes. I have no idea how that implies anything divine (in the literal sense), though.

That's because it doesn't.

I see here a perfect example of the contrasts between an atheist and agnostic. Ex-Cyber, I can understand your aversion to appearing persuadable if labeled an agnostic, but personally I would find being grouped with believers like Friendly to be even more undesirable.

[Vyxx]

Pope now seeking Immunity Protection

Such a classy guy.

[BryanM]

Teh Catholic Church.

This fad is kind of appalling. Nanna-Suen was The Guy. I mean, the guy. From the onset of civilization, he was the object of worship for ~50,000 years. (1/4th the length of time human beings existed I think? And god knows how much of the beginning of that we were still just animals for.) The god of space and time?

It's appalling that he's been reduced to a footnote in stories, like a Guy Fawkes mask in the background at a Korean Occupy rally. At least he gets to say "moo" in the Quran.

I like to pretend he's just in the middle of a very, very long Time Warp, and will come back in vogue after his journey. (Related: Ever notice that Yahweh's spells weaken as time goes on? Part of that is from the Obvious Plagiarism of much more potent gods, who weren't just storm wizards. Flesh to Salt and Expel Bowels, while hardcore, aren't really any stronger than what a middle level sorcerer like Moses could do.

Anyway, you could theorize that he's simply tapped out on mana. There's really only two reasons to explain why he would want life to exist, and feel that it's special:

a. He loves watching porn. From the tiniest bacteria, to the largest space whale.

b. He found an unused mulch garden, and planted some souls for scoobie snacks later. How much "closer to god" can you get, than to become his poo?)

---

tldr: DnD players never like to get rid of their old books (they paid good money for that stuff), pagan religions make good campaign settings, uh, and the next pope 'oughta be someone under the age of a million for a change. But won't be >_>

[Moniker]

the next pope 'oughta be someone under the age of a million for a change. But won't be >_>

JPII was only 58 when elected...

[EmperorIng]

Pope now seeking Immunity Protection

Such a classy guy.

You have to understand though, that the Italian government has been run by publicity-seeking crooks and robbers since the founding of Italy. They will do anything to deflect the public eye from their numerous scandals, bribes, and their own "evasion of justice." It's no surprise to me that a successor to Berlusconi would want to do something sensational like this when so much of the Italian population seems to give less than two fucks about their government (at least this is how I take no one in Italy celebrating their own 150th 'Risorgiomento' [sp] anniversary).

[antron]

Italians aren't exactly known for their class these days. Bunga! Bunga!

[mesh control]

I see here a perfect example of the contrasts between an atheist and agnostic. Ex-Cyber, I can understand your aversion to appearing persuadable if labeled an agnostic, but personally I would find being grouped with believers like Friendly to be even more undesirable.

I still don't understand why our species groups everything like we do.
The more I study physics, biology and mathematics, life just appear to be a random thing. However, I don't need any answers to why we're here, only how. I hope more people have similar thoughts on the subject, however I'm doubtful.

Just a tangent after browsing through the debate through the last few pages.

[trap15]

I still don't understand why our species groups everything like we do.
The more I study physics, biology and mathematics, life just appear to be a random thing. However, I don't need any answers to why we're here, only how. I hope more people have similar thoughts on the subject, however I'm doubtful.

Same. Everything is much more abstract and general than people like to believe.

[KAI]

Fight the life randomness is one of the most biggest and beautiful challenges we people have.
To hell with existentialism, to hell with religions.

[Vyxx]

I see here a perfect example of the contrasts between an atheist and agnostic. Ex-Cyber, I can understand your aversion to appearing persuadable if labeled an agnostic, but personally I would find being grouped with believers like Friendly to be even more undesirable.

I still don't understand why our species groups everything like we do.
The more I study physics, biology and mathematics, life just appear to be a random thing. However, I don't need any answers to why we're here, only how. I hope more people have similar thoughts on the subject, however I'm doubtful.

Just a tangent after browsing through the debate through the last few pages.

People are scared. If you can attribute the unknown to "god" people feel more comfortable, although ignorant.

[Siren2011]

I can think of very few things more disgusting than "transcendental value". Don't get me wrong, I do not see it as something that must be changed at all! It is a very good thing that the vast majority of people are so insufferably stupid. When I was younger and more naive, I found this to be the chief problem with existence. I became an insufferable little nihilist. But how lucky I was to experience that dread! How lucky was I to be smart enough to clearly see religion and trusting others before one's self for what it was: a dead fucking end! However, religion is NOT a problem! For if I didn't experience such a crisis (in other words, religion didn't exist), I would have not acquired this brutal optimism which has proved to me time and time again that, in a profound sense, anything is possible. Nothing is so devastating that it can kill you. With the exception of death, no loss can truly crush you. It may take time, extraordinary patience, and immense loss to achieve a goal, but so what of death?? Is that not the womb in which rebirth of everything in this world manifests itself in turn? So long as one has a dream, and will stop at absolutely nothing to reach it and then some, no matter how scary things get, the perfect life can be experienced. No matter how hopeless and painful life seems, quite literally everything can be used to one's advantage to increase his power. Pains become pleasures! Stimuli intake increases. You quite literally become a living, breathing GOD. All of these elucidations could simply not be possible without the widespread teaching of Christian morals! Therefore, to wish that things were different NEGATES the entire flux! lol.

And since extremely high perception of this flux is mandatory to ensure the survival of higher beings, a philosopher basically creates a death wish once he lets the slightest pessimistic thought to enter and consume his consciousness. I have my moments of struggle, sure. But this is why I was born...

For an artistic manifestation of everything I have said in this post, watch Berserk. Everything fundamental you need to know about life is practically packed in that show in some form or another. Of course, retards will yelp, "BUT THAT'S JUST ANIME, DOOD!"

Retards, lol. Gotta love 'em. They can't be helped, so why worry about them?

[Lord Satori]

Retards, lol. Gotta love 'em. They can't be helped, so why worry about them?

Because in large groups they can be extremely dangerous.

[Skykid]

Retards, lol. Gotta love 'em. They can't be helped, so why worry about them?

Because in large groups they can be extremely dangerous.

That's the wisest statement in this entire thread.

[EmperorIng]

It is less so, when you realize the 'retards' Siren references in his post are people who dismiss, and/or don't care for the anime Berserk.

I suppose a group of such people would be a dangerous lot.

[Siren2011]

It is less so when you realize that the kind of people who immensely enjoy Berserk so happen to possess similar mentalities and physical powers, or at least have the potential to acquire them, as some of the strongest characters depicted in that show. Nigga, would you fuck with that?? Retard or not, it would be wise not to.

Such a group of people would definitely be the most dangerous lot.

Fixed.

Art does not exist in some vacuum. One should not make the mistake of thinking it "mere entertainment" as an end in itself. The long forgotten and immensely important struggles of the human condition as immortally crystalized in the digital format of all great media, are meant to be learned from and applied for practical use in this life. Not in some imaginative space, not in "heaven", but now, while we still have flesh and bone. It is precisely because humanity has wished itself into oblivion and left virtually no room for war on the surface, that the strongest men are able to look to art for guidance and learn from that instead of their fathers (who, let's face it, had many prejudices as well.) teaching them this shit, as princes and noble heirs of all kinds learned from their masters in centuries long passed. "New World Order" has changed all of that. Resentment and nihilism dominate almost everything. As such, our "immediate" fathers of this generation are weak. It's harsh, but true. They barely can be bothered to teach us about sex and violence anymore, because the mere thought makes them uncomfortable. THAT is the age we live in, gentlemen. The greatest heroes that remain are mostly in movies and games. The rest are historically blacklisted by pseudo-academics and the media (both "conservative AND "liberal". Both ideologies are reactions, so naturally, they are both stupid as fuck.).

Retards of all kinds should not be feared, at least not in the long run. Feel the fear, accept it, and fucking do something about it. Whining, licking your sick wounds in a forum about how "THINGS WILL NEVAR B DA SAYME", will only make you more stupid, more pathetic.

[Siren2011]

I think the jig is almost up for Catholicism et al.

Wrong. But you've got the gist of it, at least.

Religion is only going to get worse. The "church" and all "organized religions" (as if democracy wasn't a religion! lol) will eventually pass into the next phase of slave morality: that of totalitarianism. We are rapidly approaching that point. It's not just fiction anymore. The subtle signs are all there ("taking away" guns, etc.). The next logical step is cameras and police being placed fucking EVERYWHERE, to the point where you need to be some kind of bad ass Gordon Freeman-type figure to pull off a simple Slushie theft from 7/11. Everyone will appear "equalized" in clothing and mannerisms. Man will be oppressed down to the types of meals he eats. It's almost unbearable to think about, if not incredibly fascinating. But I really don't see this coming full circle until at least another 80 years or so, after I'm most likely dead and gone. Which kinda both sucks and makes me feel fortunate, depending on my mood. If the resistance is this strong NOW, imagine what philosophers of the future will accomplish when the stakes are so high! It makes a man slightly envious. lol. But I'm so fortunate for everything life has granted me, I am ok with that.

Read "The Demolished Man". I highly recommend it.

[system11]

We are rapidly approaching that point. It's not just fiction anymore. The subtle signs are all there ("taking away" guns, etc.). The next logical step is cameras and police being placed fucking EVERYWHERE, to the point where you need to be some kind of bad ass Gordon Freeman-type figure to pull off a simple Slushie theft from 7/11. Everyone will appear "equalized" in clothing and mannerisms. Man will be oppressed down to the types of meals he eats.

Welcome to the UK.

[BryanM]

It is less so, when you realize the 'retards' Siren references in his post are people who dismiss, and/or don't care for the anime Berserk.

To be fair, you have to be culturally savvy enough to understand why Guts goes Berserk when Casca tells him she hates him more than Final Fantasy 8.

A lot of layers, in that onion.

[CMoon]

I still don't understand why our species groups everything like we do.

Guess this turning into a religious thread was inevitable. I agree with your thoughts about grouping. I consider my own version of atheism extraordinary innocuous and distinct from Dawkins' version of atheism; enough so I'd call it agnosticism only I'm not on the fence. From everything I've seen, Christians are equally diverse to a point having a few terms like Catholic or whatever are just a sort of arbitrary place holder for a whole spectrum of beliefs.

What's interesting to me is that the phenomena of groups is so widespread. Dawkins talks about this in the field of taxonomy where everything is about grouping, but if we had a complete fossil record, 'transitions' would be...you guessed it...arbitrary place holders agreed upon by paleontologists. This whole grouping thing is a human brain thing that lets us enforce a made up organization upon a world that isn't neat, organized or grouped.

[Lord Satori]

What I find odd about catholicism is how they contradict their own beliefs. The weak shall inherit the earth yet we have this established hierarchy. Forgive me father, for I have sinned, even though Jesus has already done this for every one of us.

[EmperorIng]

Well, I guess if you look at things with the intellectual capacity of a middle-schooler, then arrange your statements in such a way and in such vague terms as to obfuscate your meaning, it would make them seem contradictory, wouldn't they?

Before you respond, please think hard on how the points you bring up as 'contradictory' are contradicting each other - if they are contradictory, that is, and if you understand them at all.

[stryc9]

What I find odd about catholicism is how they contradict their own beliefs. The weak shall inherit the earth yet we have this established hierarchy.

It's 'Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth' (Mathew 5:5). I believe this is not due yet, so there is no contradiction here.

Forgive me father, for I have sinned, even though Jesus has already done this for every one of us.

This one on the other hand is completely legit.

[Ed Oscuro]

I wanted to point out that Russell's Teapot has some (potentially) suspect dimensions to it if you don't take it as a sign for a strictly nihilist moral outlook (which would be consistent physically and which does not appear to require the nihilist to have a complicated belief about the origin of morals etc.).

While I disagree, for many people it's going to look like a category error to say that an analogy from physics (the unexperienced teapot in space) is going to suffice for dismissing something which is supposed to be not only unseen and unobserved (in the scientific fashion, not the spooky and unreliable fashion of prophets), but which also takes the role of some apparently mysterious functions of the universe (its origin, the possibility of morals grounded in God, etc.) which are not thought to be explained by the physical account. Of course if you take the nihilist view this seems to crumble. Russell's complaint seems to be inverted in some variations of the discussion; the fact that the teapot is not observed but claimed to exist, rather than not observed and also claimed to not exist, is not the main problem; the problem is that the belief in the teapot is trivial (taking a page from Paul Chamberlain). Furthermore, if the nihilist view is not thought sufficient to explain everything, then that particular view seems too thin to explain what is going on, and therefore the atheist is predicating their belief on the nonexistence of a teapot, rather than focusing on achieving a minimally robust belief. But as I said - I don't think this is often a problem for atheism or nihilism specifically.

I do think that Russell's Teapot is a much stronger criticism when taken to some of the newer Christian philosophical / scientific initiatives, like Plantinga's black hole cosmology in religion, where it clearly has possible dimensions which complicate the picture of physics for the sake of some apparently ascientific belief. And ironically I would assume this whole project is in part a response to criticisms like Russell's.

And this starts to favor (strict) nihilism in my view, because the religious view that beliefs (i.e. the origin of goodness etc. in God rather than in some universal or local conventions) cannot be tested seems to be at odds with the obvious view that those beliefs still impinge on our day-to-day experience of life, unless you attempt to completely firewall it from investigation with some kinds of story that is simple (God made the universe and rested) or increasingly complex ("God the constant tinkerer," or a blunderer, as an example; although this one could possibly admit observation).

Forgive me father, for I have sinned, even though Jesus has already done this for every one of us.

This one on the other hand is completely legit.

I think that's just a rhetorical device. No reason to make Jesus' punishment even worse going forward (beyond the limits set by being sinful humans and all)!

[Lord Satori]

Yeah, I wasn't too sure about that first one.

I think that's just a rhetorical device. No reason to make Jesus' punishment even worse going forward (beyond the limits set by being sinful humans and all)!

You realize that Jesus' 'punishment' was over a long time ago. The entire religion is based on the fable that he ressurected from hell and ascended to heaven. Or am I misinterpreting your statement?

[Ed Oscuro]

Well, this goes in with the whole "unobservable" thing. How bad did Jesus feel his punishment on the cross was, not to mention the totally unseen descent into hell?

Take a moment to step away from the usual temporal direction (but not cause and effect) in the assumption of time. It certainly boggles the human belief in the orderedness of events in time (not to mention apparent observation). However, it seems logically possible that some being, with the specific powers a Godlike being is alleged to have, could have a reaction to events happening temporally (by our view) after the effect (i.e. the degree of suffering). Of course hidden in my reply is the careful dodging of any mention of predestination, which would make the second half of my comment irrelevant if true.

I forget what Christians are supposed to believe about God being in time, except to say that God is probably supposed to have put himself into time for creating the world (and thus logically and temporally prior to Jesus' sacrifice), so again the criticism seems to hold.

I think it is mainly (or perhaps "only reasonably interpreted as, if people are sane") a rhetorical device. It is certainly quite convenient to say both that the worse you are the worse Jesus must suffer, but also say that no matter what you try, you will cause Jesus pain, so that you are left both wanting to be better (to reduce Jesus' pain) but also completely unable to do so, unless it is because you are fated to adhere to the stricture of doing better. It isn't exactly easy but it doesn't seem logically impossible. Incredible? Well, certainly.

(Listening to parking ticket guy on Stem - Long Stem, from Entroducing....)