Devil May Cry 5

[iconoclast]

cheap difficulty where you are forced to deal with millions of off-screen projectiles flying at you from all angles that you have no chance of avoiding.

but you can avoid them, you just need to l2p.

[Jonathan Ingram]

but you can avoid them, you just need to l2p.

You can`t avoid them all no matter how much you "l2p", hence the impossibility of 'no damage' runs in NGII.

[Obiwanshinobi]

"Off-screen projectiles flying at you from all angles that you have no chance of avoiding" sounds like Dark Fact in Ys Complete on Hard (the PC version anyways). I defeated him, but don't believe anybody did it whilst taking no damage. Wouldn't call it cheap, although there was nothing else in the whole game quite like it. The concept doesn't seem any cheaper than running out of life in Shinobi (2002).

[iconoclast]

You can`t avoid them all no matter how much you "l2p", hence the impossibility of 'no damage' runs in NGII.

Yeah, it's a hard game. Of course you're never going to avoid every projectile, just like you're never going to avoid every bullet in the hardest shooters.

If NG2 was "largely luck-based", the most skilled players wouldn't be dominating the survival leaderboards. But they are because they learned how to deal with everything.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Yeah, it's a hard game. Of course you're never going to avoid every projectile, just like you're never going to avoid every bullet in the hardest shooters.

Of course? Why, yes, you can do just that in NGB, NGS and NGS2. This bullshit with off-screen projectiles in NGII was not a design choice. It`s common knowledge that the game releasing in such unpolished state and not being play-tested enough was the result of the internal problems Team Ninja was experiencing at the time, otherwise this mess would never have happened.

But they are because they learned how to deal with everything.

Clearly that doesn`t include the randomized damage from off-screen projectiles. With enough skill you can learn how to minimize it, but never how to avoid it completely.

[Mischief Maker]

How can anyone not like this character. Such an asshole that it's hard not to smile.

ALL-RIGHT! How cool is that? Dante's learned the battle cry that pimply sexually frustrated teenagers write on their desks during homeroom. What a character!

Compared to boring old Dante who sees (smells) through a giant angler frog's deception and still takes the time to sexually harass it before exploding the frog's entire family just for the fun of it! No swear words? Not enough 'tude, bro!

[iconoclast]

Of course? Why, yes, you can do just that in NGB, NGS and NGS2.

Because those are different, easier games. Is anyone ever going to perfect Ultra mode in either Mushihimesama? Nope. And it doesn't really matter since all of these games give you enough tools & resources to deal with everything they throw at you.

Anyway, that's enough derailment from me. Sometimes I can't resist when I see someone complaining about a game being "cheap" or "unfair".

[DragonInstall]

ALL-RIGHT! How cool is that? Dante's learned the battle cry that pimply sexually frustrated teenagers write on their desks during homeroom. What a character!

You really can't see how the developers made his douche persona over the top? To me I find it hilarious and a bit refreshing from what I'm used to in a main character.

I always liked when a char just breaks the norm in a over the top fashion. Old Dante did that well also.

Rance is probably my favorite main protagonist in any game because of how hilarious over the top he becomes.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I could barely stand Dante when DMC3 was pretty new, but God Hand made me understand him better so to speak. Acquired taste. He wasn't meant to be likeable, or rather, he liked himself so much that he didn't need our liking.

[Mischief Maker]

ALL-RIGHT! How cool is that? Dante's learned the battle cry that pimply sexually frustrated teenagers write on their desks during homeroom. What a character!

You really can't see how the developers made his douche persona over the top? To me I find it hilarious and a bit refreshing from what I'm used to in a main character.

I think you've confused the phrase "over the top" with the term "lame." Here's another example:

Devil May Cry 3 Dante defeats a Succubus and shows off his awesome new weapon.

DMC5 Dante defeats a Succubus and shows off his awesome new weapon.

Also, I take issue with your "brainless AI" comment. I've only played the first Xbox Ninja Gaiden and DMC3's original American release was equal in difficulty (the original American release was one degree of magnitude harder than the original Japanese release and the Special Edition, Btw.) If you crank up the difficulty the enemies get MUCH more aggressive.

Meanwhile every single lame DMC5 regular enemy fight and lame DMC5 boss fight linked in this thread were all done at max difficulty.

You sound like the people who tried to convince me back in the 90s that the Phantom Menace wasn't bad.

[Mischief Maker]

I could barely stand Dante when DMC3 was pretty new, but God Hand made me understand him better so to speak. Acquired taste. He wasn't meant to be likeable, or rather, he liked himself so much that he didn't need our liking.

On the contrary I'd say he's one of the most relatable protagonists in the history of videogames. He's not a nervous anxious child who's had destiny thrust upon him. He's not a grizzled unsmiling soldier driven by grim duty. Dante LOVES his job!

The fun he has matches the fun the player is having. When he gets a new weapon his excitement to try out this new toy mirror's the player's excitement. He's badass, he knows it, and he's having fun showing off, JUST LIKE YOU! How can you not find his enthusiasm infectious?

(Except for that little "I should have filled your dark soul with Light!!!" moment. Let's try not to think about that)

[DragonInstall]

You sound like the people who tried to convince me back in the 90s that the Phantom Menace wasn't bad.

How do I sound like that? All I said was I like how over the top douche they made this Dante. I happen to find it humorous just like the old Dante.

You sound like a kid who want's everyone to think his way, and now you're throwing a tantrum. *shrugs*

[Obiwanshinobi]

I suppose that people with a particulary soft for Dante of DMC3 treasure their memories of their teenage years more than any other decade (I don't).

[Mischief Maker]

I suppose that people with a particulary soft for Dante of DMC3 treasure their memories of their teenage years more than any other decade (I don't).

If you're not excited, smiling, and having fun while playing videogames, what's the point?

[Obiwanshinobi]

If you're not excited, smiling, and having fun while playing videogames, what's the point?

Ask people traumatised by N64 and - to a lesser extent, but still - Dreamcast.

[Mischief Maker]

Maybe I was wrong about this game.

Maybe it's not lame, maybe it's a brilliant piece of marketing aimed directly at paid professional reviewers.

I spent most of last week rolling my eyes at paid reviewers savaging Strike Suit Zero because the carrier they were supposed to be escorting didn't dodge the torpedoes they couldn't be bothered to intercept. I joked that in Strike Suit Zero 2 every time you hit any enemy the suit will give off a gigantic EMP wave that detonates every torpedo in the galaxy and will get 10/10.

Now I just watched the Zero Punctuation review of DMC5 and Yahtzee mentions that he can't be bothered to switch up his attack combos. He wants to button mash and damnit! that better be a winning strategy! I assume he got murdered in previous titles, even DMC4, and for this reason has never said anything nice about them.

Suddenly here comes DMC5 where he can button mash the whole way through and not only does he win the game, he gets a SSS rating! How flattering for him! He not only recommends the game, he gives it one of the nicest reviews in the history of him getting paid to do this. "SSS, you're the best videogame player in the world, Yahtzee!" Oh how the harsh critic purrs when you rub his belly.

Somebody get him a copy of Thunderforce VI!

[Edmond Dantes]

Suddenly here comes DMC5 where he can button mash the whole way through and not only does he win the game, he gets a SSS rating! How flattering for him! He not only recommends the game, he gives it one of the nicest reviews in the history of him getting paid to do this. "SSS, you're the best videogame player in the world, Yahtzee!" Oh how the harsh critic purrs when you rub his belly.

Somebody get him a copy of Thunderforce VI!

This shouldn't surprise me, but it does.

I respect Yahtzee even less now.

[Hagane]

I don't think it's just reviewers getting paid. That would mean that they actually know about games and they choose to write idiocy for the money instead. But actually the vast majority of them know jack shit about gaming and honestly like the casual brainless garbage they praise.

That said, this saga has never been a paragon of demanding gameplay. It's just natural that the game that dumbed down the beat'em up genre forever went down this road.

[Edmond Dantes]

That said, this saga has never been a paragon of demanding gameplay.

HUH?! *Mind blown*

[kamiboy]

It's just natural that the game that dumbed down the beat'em up genre forever went down this road.

Yeah, those belt scrollers had such deeper, less repetitive and less awkward gameplay than something like Devil May Cry.

No, wait, what am I saying. The fighting system of Final Fight, Streets of Rage and their ilk was about as sophisticated as lobotomized chimpanzees when put next to the sublime mechanics found in even the first Devil May Cry.

I hope this bizzare sentiment is unique among gamers because such opinions being widespread would be enough to push me beyond the brink of sanity.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Neither 1 nor 3 seemed really like the same genre as Dynamite Dekka to me. 3D in DMC is way more substantial, thus a new genre was born.
DMC-like game that feels more like 2D beat 'em ups is Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks. Before you get an opinion, try it out in co-op (it's made with co-op in mind, much like, say, Kuri Kuri Mix/The Adventures of Cookie & Cream). Another one is The Red Star. Combat engine similar to DMC, but more arcadey flow and - again - co-op is where it's at.

[Mischief Maker]

That said, this saga has never been a paragon of demanding gameplay. It's just natural that the game that dumbed down the beat'em up genre forever went down this road.

That's like saying Serious Sam dumbed down Robotron's genre forever. Apples and Oranges mechanics-wise, and it's a serious stretch to say the former had anything to do with the downfall of the latter.

[kamiboy]

Actually I've always seen Devil May Cry as the natural evolution of belt scrollers into 3D. There is definitely some shared design genes there in the same way that 3D Mario and Zeldas evolved out of their 2D counterparts.

Only difference is that belt scrollers had been dead for a whole generation when Devil May Cry revived the genre by doing a much, much more sophisticated 3D take on the idea.

Now, the reason why 2D style Zelda and Marios are still being made next to their 3D counterparts when 2D belt scrollers have been dead for over a decade is because the former sported robust designs that still have something unique to offer.

When I look back at the entire 2D belt scrolling genre I have a hard to believing that they were so popular being as awkward as they were. That genre died because its 2D gameplay was an evolutionary dead end from the get go. What Hideki Kamiya created in reinventing the genre in 3D however had a healthy evolutionary path ahead of it.

[Mortificator]

Such obvious bait. No one's so stupid as to think adding more than one combo and terrain that matters would dumb a game down.

Neither 1 nor 3 seemed really like the same genre as Dynamite Dekka to me. 3D in DMC is way more substantial, thus a new genre was born.
DMC-like game that feels more like 2D beat 'em ups is Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance.

Shaolin Monks! You're right, though, it's between 3D brawlers and DMC-style games, and really fun in co-op.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Shaolin Monks, that's correct.

Only difference is that belt scrollers had been dead for a whole generation when Devil May Cry revived the genre by doing a much, much more sophisticated 3D take on the idea.

"Whole generation" is a stretch. Die Hard Arcade is the only ST-V game I recall ever seeing in the flesh, which makes me think it was popular. Also, the PSX Warriors of Fate port, loadings and all, is pretty good nonetheless. The kind of port you could only dream of a generation before. Not too shabby for a genre that was allegedly dead.

[Hagane]

Yeah, those belt scrollers had such deeper, less repetitive and less awkward gameplay than something like Devil May Cry.

No, wait, what am I saying. The fighting system of Final Fight, Streets of Rage and their ilk was about as sophisticated as lobotomized chimpanzees when put next to the sublime mechanics found in even the first Devil May Cry.

I hope this bizzare sentiment is unique among gamers because such opinions being widespread would be enough to push me beyond the brink of sanity.

I see you haven't played games like Alien vs. Predator, Denjin Makai 2 or any modern IGS beat'em up. DMC has much lower difficulty and execution than any decent belt scroller. Switching to 3D also limited what you can do with inputs. Go try 1CC AvsP and then tell me DMC (and any other 3D beat'em up like it) isn't a downgrade in the genre.

I really have no idea what you guys mean with more "substance"... execution and difficulty it is not of course, so I wonder what it is.

[Obiwanshinobi]

What I meant is that in Dynamite Dekka the graphics were three-dimensional, but the gameplay was 2D. DMC has got 3D gameplay, which is enough for me to treat it like a different genre.
Doesn't feel a lot like a coin-op game at that. More like Onimusha (i.e. action-adventure). Sure thing, the combat engine is inspired by 2D beat 'em ups, but no more than any game where you "shoot the core" is inspired by the original Star Wars flick.
Last but not least, there's no co-op in DMC, which is very unlike about every 2D beat 'em up I can think of.
By the way, if difficulty and execution make DMC too easy for your liking, what stops you from beating the hell out of, say, Bloody Palace in DMC3 to prove your point?
I don't recommend going there wielding just a keyboard, though. Even the glitchy PC port of DMC3 was crazy fun for a while, but analogue joypad helped great deal.

[Mischief Maker]

Last but not least, there's no co-op in DMC, which is very unlike about every 2D beat 'em up I can think of.

Actually there is in Devil May Cry 3. If you're using Doppelganger style another person can control the shadow Dante with the 2nd controller.

[Mischief Maker]

Also, Devil May Cry 1 was never based off belt-scrollers.

It was originally meant to be Resident Evil 4, using dramatic camera angles in a fully 3d environment instead of rendering 3d characters on still image backgrounds. The big lightbulb moment that gave birth to DMC proper during prototyping was a bug that allowed airborne enemies to be kept aloft by continually shooting at them. The rest is history.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I read that the mid-air exploit that gave Capcom the idea was in Onimusha (at least at some point during development).