Dungeon crawl

[Obiwanshinobi]

How many times could you honestly say that some game lived up to the hype?
A few nights ago Spelunky (PC) did it for me. I don't even think about dungeon crawling as a genre. It's just something I happily do in my games. Recently the first Bomberman (GB port) scratched the itch; also, I always thought Disgaea system would make for a fine dungeon crawler... only to realise just last year that Item World is exactly that. Something the original Diablo did for me, but Diablo II didn't.

I'd like some recommendations for future reference. Yes, there's already a thread about roguelikes, but THOSE are what I think about as a genre. Not something I'm gonna have affair with this year. When I go there, I won't be coming back soon, you know.

[ZellSF]

Spelunky, Bomberman, Diablo... Not sure what those games have in common, but if you like dungeon crawling you must play The Legend of Grimrock.

[Obiwanshinobi]

The very first Bomberman (at least the "Special" iteration) is the only singleplayer Bomberman game known to me that feels like a dungeon crawler. Back in the year 1983 it was hardly any genre at all. Bomberman predates Tower of Druaga, Gauntlet and Dragon Slayer.
You have more than one life per credit, but since you retain most power-ups after death, it works more like a lifeber than lives. The rooms are not randomised, but you never respawn in the exact same room where you died.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The Shining Soul GBA games weren't bad for a Diablo-style crawl. The second game in particular was vastly improved, without requiring the massive time investment some other dungeon crawl games need to level.

[Moniker]

It seems you're looking for "roguelike-likes," in which case, check out (in no particular order) FTL, Desktop Dungeons, Borderlands, Binding of Isaac, Realm of the Mad God, Nox, Baroque, Dark Cloud 2. You also might be interested in ZHP: Unlosing Ranger, etc (PSP). Sorta halfway b/w Disgaea & Shiren the Wanderer.

There aren't many Diablo-likes that are anywhere near as good as Diablo. Although I'd have to hear why you like 1 but not 2 (I love both). There's also a huge mod for Diablo1 called "The Hell," which is really really well-done. Torchlight 2 would be another obvious recommendation.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Diablo II is too open world for my liking. I can't submerge myself in it, floor by floor, layer after layer.
For me, dungeon crawling is, to a great extent, about getting to the bottom (or top) of things. Didn't the final act of Diablo II (not the LoD expansion) happen on but one floor? Too much space, to few corridors, chambers and floors. In the original Diablo, even on levels devoid of darkness, you kept descending.
Even Icewind Dale (and Darkstone, which I didn't even like as a game) did the dungeons better than Diablo II for me.

[CMoon]

I recently went back to playing the first Etrian Odyssey and was expecting a discussion of games more along those lines (IE Wizardry-likes). Certainly rogue-likes (and the item-world in Disgaea is basically a rogue-like mini game) share a lot in common with the traditional dungeon crawler, so maybe if you like one you'll like the other.

[Ruldra]

Shiren the Wanderer and Fatal Labyrinth seems to be the kind of game you're looking for, but they're both roguelikes. Might want to check the Wizardry games too.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I almost certainly will play some Wizardry and Fushigi no Dungeon. Those things seem inevitable.
Would have played The Nightmare of Druaga long time ago, but the "handheld sickness" it caught somewhere (everything's too blown up for your average TV screen) turned me off.

[CMoon]

Just keep in mind that Wizardry has become a lot of different things over the years. Wiz 1-4 are a very classic, archaic style that might be hard to appreciate in their raw, original form. I think some of the attempts to recreate that original feel fare quite a bit better than those early games. I like the Etrian Odyssey games quite a bit and they sport an interesting skill tree system, and of course is the core Shin Megami Tensei games which started as a Wizardry clone with a demon collection element. The ps2 Wizardry game (Tales of the Forsaken Land) is also a throw back to the original style, but throws in a lot of new elements--maybe not enough to make it as interesting as EO or SMT, but quite good nonetheless.

Later on though (I'm thinking particularly of Wizardry 7), the series becomes absurdly imaginative, bringing sword and sorcery together with science fiction in a free-roam world (loaded with dungeons.) I really liked where this was going (imagine Elder Scrolls with a good combat engine and the ability to have a whole party, AND well designed dungeons), but it seems when people took an interest in revitalizing this genre, they just wanted to stick with the earliest formula.

Wizardry 8 might still run OK on modern computers, but everything else will require dosbox. What's more, a lot of stuff just may seem too primitive. I love 7 to death, but I don't know if I'd be patient enough to play it again. So much easier to play some of the output by Atlus on the DS.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Wizardry 8 might still run OK on modern computers, but everything else will require dosbox. What's more, a lot of stuff just may seem too primitive. I love 7 to death, but I don't know if I'd be patient enough to play it again. So much easier to play some of the output by Atlus on the DS.

Yeah, it's a shame that Wizardry's earlier entries are so solid but don't get much of a following because of how difficult it is to really to get into it compared to friendlier console titles. Wiz 8's massive customization makes me wish more games had this for entire parties. The whole single-character thing popularized by Elder Scrolls doesn't tend to make for as much fun/strategic combat.

[burgerkingdiamond]

Just started playing Demon's Souls. It met and surpassed every expectation I had. It really is an amazing game.

[MX7]

While I could never conceivably enjoy a crawler as archaic as the original Wizardry, this awesome blog sees a particularly diligent CRPG player documenting his Wizardry experience, along with tonnes of other nightmarish sounding games. http://crpgaddict.blogspot.co.uk

(if there is a similarly extensive blog (in English!) dedicated to Japanese computer RPGs, or even just crawlers, or even just old RPGs, do let me know...)

Not really sure what you're looking for Obiwabshinobi. So I'll just recommend Shin Megami Tensei (SFC, translated by Aeon Genesis) and Etrian Odyssey (DS)

[Ruldra]

Anyone here tried Legasista? I was interested when I heard it was a real-time dungeon crawler but the overly anime graphics was a big turn-off for me.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Just keep in mind that Wizardry has become a lot of different things over the years. Wiz 1-4 are a very classic, archaic style that might be hard to appreciate in their raw, original form. I think some of the attempts to recreate that original feel fare quite a bit better than those early games. I like the Etrian Odyssey games quite a bit and they sport an interesting skill tree system, and of course is the core Shin Megami Tensei games which started as a Wizardry clone with a demon collection element. The ps2 Wizardry game (Tales of the Forsaken Land) is also a throw back to the original style, but throws in a lot of new elements--maybe not enough to make it as interesting as EO or SMT, but quite good nonetheless.

Aye, Nocturne felt pretty much like an 8-bit computer game with added story, graphics and numerous refinements. That PS2 Wizardry has been on my mind too.
Realistically speaking, my plan for this year is: Crimson Tears (2nd playthrough), The Nightmare of Druaga (after all), Baroque, Tale of the Forsaken Land.

Later on though (I'm thinking particularly of Wizardry 7), the series becomes absurdly imaginative, bringing sword and sorcery together with science fiction in a free-roam world (loaded with dungeons.) I really liked where this was going (imagine Elder Scrolls with a good combat engine and the ability to have a whole party, AND well designed dungeons), but it seems when people took an interest in revitalizing this genre, they just wanted to stick with the earliest formula.

I wonder what happened with western computer gaming after the original Diablo that "true" cRPGs (of Fallout's kin) and Diablo clones alike escaped from fat fucking dungeons. Icewind Dale was a swansong. Did the gamers lost interest? When that Bradley's unfinished game - Dungeon Lords - came out, PC gaming press slagged off not just glitches, but also the lack of story. The hell?
Granted, Arcanum had respectable mazes (shame about the engine) and story didn't hurt those. Divine Divinity had very good engine and properly designed dungeons. Maybe The Temple of Elemental Evil (2003) and Dark Messiah of Might and Magic (PC) tried to bring dungeoning back, but I didn't play those.
What did Japan do to keep dungeons profitable that West failed to do? Maybe disguising yearly updates as deluxe versions and spin-offs rather than sequels was the key. Count all those M&M and Wizardry games... whereas Shin MegaTen IV was announced last year.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Anyone here tried Legasista? I was interested when I heard it was a real-time dungeon crawler but the overly anime graphics was a big turn-off for me.

I have. Put about 80 hours into it. Legasista is a sequel of sorts to Sytem Prisma`s ClaDun and Cladun x2 for the PSP, but it`s more complex and considerably more difficult. It`s very unorthodox in the way it handles the stats - the equipment`s HP, for instance, is actually more important than defense, and the latter becomes more or less completely useless by the time you start attempting the high level dungeons. It takes awhile to figure out all of its multiple systems and sub-systems, but once things get going, it`s one of the best dungeon crawlers in the business. The story can be beaten in about ten hours or so and there really isn`t much that can be said about it other than that it`s there. The real meat lies in clearing Legasista`s 200-floor dungeons. Naturally, you can`t save in between the floors and if you die, you lose all of the loot that you had collected up to that point during the dungeon run and there`s no way to get it back.

[Leader Bee]

but if you like dungeon crawling you must play The Legend of Grimrock.

I must say that I agree but it's linear, it would most certainly benefit from becoming a roguelike with randomised dungeons. With the Dungeon Editor now available though I think my number 1 top ask would be for more items and equipment.

[Ruldra]

Anyone here tried Legasista? I was interested when I heard it was a real-time dungeon crawler but the overly anime graphics was a big turn-off for me.

I have. Put about 80 hours into it. Legasista is a sequel of sorts to Sytem Prisma`s ClaDun and Cladun x2 for the PSP, but it`s more complex and considerably more difficult. It`s very unorthodox in the way it handles the stats - the equipment`s HP, for instance, is actually more important than defense, and the latter becomes more or less completely useless by the time you start attempting the high level dungeons. It takes awhile to figure out all of its multiple systems and sub-systems, but once things get going, it`s one of the best dungeon crawlers in the business. The story can be beaten in about ten hours or so and there really isn`t much that can be said about it other than that it`s there. The real meat lies in clearing Legasista`s 200-floor dungeons. Naturally, you can`t save in between the floors and if you die, you lose all of the loot that you had collected up to that point during the dungeon run and there`s no way to get it back.

Do you need to grind to ridiculous levels to beat the hardest dungeons? Since it's a Nippon Ichi game...

And can't you save between floors at least to take a break? Doing 200 floors in one sitting is crazy.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Do you need to grind to ridiculous levels to beat the hardest dungeons? Since it's a Nippon Ichi game...

And can't you save between floors at least to take a break? Doing 200 floors in one sitting is crazy.

Legasista is a System Prisma game. Nippon Ichi merely published it.

Levels don`t serve much purpose in Legasista and there`s no reason whatsoever to grind for them past level 100(although it`s technically possible to reach Lv999). It`s all about titles and sub-titles on your equipment - they directly affect your stats and abilities and they can make or break your party. Unfortunately, it takes awhile to procure the needed sub-titles to customize your equipment with and there`s one particular spot in one of the story dungeons where you`ll have to grind for hours hoping for the enemies to drop items with good sub-titles before you can proceed to doing the 200-floor dungeons.

No, you can`t save - not even a temporary quicksave is allowed. But you can leave the dungeon through an exit gate(it appears every 20 floors until you hit the 100th floor; after that it`s going to appear only randomly). Beating a 200-floor doesn`t really take as much time as one might think - three hours at most. The problem is that there are a lot of random elements to the dungeons. By going through the dungeon you`ll be passing through randomly appearing gates whose effects vary greatly - some of them will heal your party, repair your equipment and even teleport you a few floors above, others will boost the monster`s levels by hundreds or thousands and warp you to an area with death traps and demons capable of OHKO-ing you on touch regardless of your level.

Legasista`s main challenge lies in soloing(that is, going in with just one character instead of the three allowed) a Demon-geon, the most difficult of the dungeons. I haven`t managed to do it yet, but I intend to. Last time I tried, I was stopped by the 200th floor boss whom I had leveled up to level 9,999 by having passed through a really unlucky combination of gates.

[CMoon]

I know...more about Etrian Odyssey, but with all this talk about dungeon crawlers just wanted to point out that the first three games (which used to have crazy out of print prices) have recently been reissued and are now going for $30 each on Amazon. The third in particular is a REALLY nice game, among one of my favorite dungeon crawler titles. Of course, 4 is almost out so it might make just as much sense to wait for that. Depends on how much dungeon crawling you need.

[Obiwanshinobi]

The 2004 Bard's Tale "remake" (not really), at least on the PC, contains the original trilogy. Nice touch.

[Aguraki]

dungeon master is the oldest of his kind I would still play.
wizardry is really antic and rough.
there´s a free windows remake of dungeon master (RTC) so easy to get it and install.
you keep going down,it´s dark atmospear but clear design.
spell sytem is ace.
flawless game except maybe the leveling but it seems every game in this genre has some grind in it.
also game requires some skills its all good.

<3 dungeon master

[BryanM]

<3 dungeon master

fuck yeah seaking



Oooh yeah. You take those coins, you dirty chest. You take'em good...

[Moniker]

Nyu Media just localized this guy: Croixleur. Looks like part slash-em-up part dungeon crawl. My French is rusty, but I think it translates to Cross-bearer? Downloading the trial now.

Also, Etrian Odyssey does indeed kick ass. I've spent a decent amount of time with all three (note to self: actually beat one of them); I think my favorite is 2. In a similar vein, SMT: Strange Journey is pretty good, if you aren't sick of demon fusion, and don't like drawing your own maps. Also: Dark Spire (all NDS).

[cj iwakura]

Tale of the Forsaken Land is an amazing game, and arguably the best Wizardry game ever. (Yeah, I like the J Wizardrys better.)

[Obiwanshinobi]

I'd gladly buy a DS even for one game (drawing maps is fine with me)... if I was already done with PS2 and GB(C/A) libraries. Those Boktai games are what I crave.

[KAI]

Liked Xanadu Next, can someone recommend me something like that? japanese if possible.

[Obiwanshinobi]

What little Xanadu Next I played seemed more like action-adventure. Maybe, just maybe Quest in Bomberman Tournament is a bit like it (but I played too little Xanadu Next - before the translation patch - to be sure).
If you want some real-time dungeon action played with a joypad, I couldn't recommend Crimson Tears enough.

[Necronopticous]

Guys, stop beating around the bush.

nethack.alt.org

[Jonathan Ingram]

Liked Xanadu Next, can someone recommend me something like that? japanese if possible.

Brandish: The Dark Revenant for the PSP, perhaps? It`s not exactly very similar in the gameplay department to Xanadu Next, but it`s a great dungeon crawler and it`s also from Falcom.

As far as Japanese Diablo clones go, you might want to check out Hudson`s Dungeon Explorer and Monolithsoft`s Soma Bringer(the art style may be off-putting, but the game is good).