HDMI NES could be a reality?

[kamiboy]

Thing is anything you could imagine wanting to test has already been done and is fully documented out there in a forum or website somewhere. If you know the correct terms google will answer many of your questions with a bit of research.

[leonk]

Folks, please remember.. this is the NES we're talking about, it has a single channel mono audio, 8 bit CPU, and a PPU which only generates analog video. Adding audio into the HDMI port will not only significantly increase the cost (with no obvious advantage) but it will also increase the audio lag (as audio on the NES PCB is analog as well for the most part!)

I believe it's a mistake the call this device the HDMI NES.. the DVI NES would be more realistic, as it won't have anything but video, and no HDCP protection. Heck, you can still purchase DVI to HDMI cables today!

[Smashbro29]

Thing is anything you could imagine wanting to test has already been done and is fully documented out there in a forum or website somewhere. If you know the correct terms google will answer many of your questions with a bit of research.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... Audio.html

It was hard enough to find THAT ripoff, you're telling me that I can not only find one with a decent price but also find hardcore numbers on it?

I disagree, most of my setup had to be done by pioneering because I couldn't find data now I can't afford to do that anymore.

[Fudoh]

Actually never mind my soldering off the RF box remark. I had forgotten that box also houses the power adapter input. I guess we'll just have wait and see how big the final FPGA board is and take it from there.

in the original NES, on the top right, there's at least 4 times as much space available on the top loader units. No need to bother with the RF box...

It was hard enough to find THAT ripoff, you're telling me that I can not only find one with a decent price but also find hardcore numbers on it?

what's the point in posting the link to that $200+ Atlona box, when I already told you that you get a SPIF+DVI to HDMI integrator unit at monoprice for about $40 ?

[Smashbro29]

Actually never mind my soldering off the RF box remark. I had forgotten that box also houses the power adapter input. I guess we'll just have wait and see how big the final FPGA board is and take it from there.

in the original NES, on the top right, there's at least 4 times as much space available on the top loader units. No need to bother with the RF box...

It was hard enough to find THAT ripoff, you're telling me that I can not only find one with a decent price but also find hardcore numbers on it?

what's the point in posting the link to that $200+ Atlona box, when I already told you that you get a SPIF+DVI to HDMI integrator unit at monoprice for about $40 ?

Because that setup requires an analog to spdif converter too.

I realize the solution you posted should technically work But I'm concerned about lag especially when it comes to lag between picture and sound. Not to mention 2 extra boxes for an NES seems excessive. There's got to be one, even if it costs the same price, electricity bills are no joke.

[kamiboy]

Fudoh already told you there won't be any lag. You might not know this, but as far as these subjects go you cannot find a better authority.

Lastly if you are that concerned with a neat hassle free solution just stop wasting time and buy a Sharp Famicom Titler. They are expensive as hell but they have S-video out so you can just plug them directly into the XRGB mini, no extra devices or modifications necessarily. Doesn't get any more neat than that.

That way with the minuscule difference in your electric bill the Titler should make back its cost in, say, a few decades.

[Smashbro29]

Fudoh already told you there won't be any lag. You might not know this, but as far as these subjects go you cannot find a better authority.

Lastly if you are that concerned with a neat hassle free solution just stop wasting time and buy a Sharp Famicom Titler. They are expensive as hell but they have S-video out so you can just plug them directly into the XRGB mini, no extra devices or modifications necessarily. Doesn't get any more neat than that.

That way with the minuscule difference in your electric bill the Titler should make back its cost in, say, a few decades.

I feel like in text this stuff seems kind of hostile, I'm never sure what to say about it but if you're getting the same vibe back. I'm sorry man, I'm just trying to get a complete video hookup.

[Ji-L87]

Hrm...as far as I can see in that thread, that HDMI (DVI) NES-thing isn't even out yet, why this big discussion about HDMI audio...? Wait until the darn thing comes out, then we can figure out how to properly integrate it into our setups.


Speaking of which, it's possible I missed something when trying to re-read the thread but, why does the audio have to be put into the HDMI signal anyway?

[Fudoh]

why does the audio have to be put into the HDMI signal anyway?

cause SmashBro doesn't want an extra cable to his TV set.

[antron]

I guess the most obvious way to 240p is HDFury->Emotia. Anything more direct? How about low res component?

[kamiboy]

What hostility? A Titler is a viable option to consider. If they weren't so expensive I'd buy one myself. Hell if I find one for a good price I might buy one and circumvent the whole modification angle.

[ZellSF]

Actually never mind my soldering off the RF box remark. I had forgotten that box also houses the power adapter input. I guess we'll just have wait and see how big the final FPGA board is and take it from there.

in the original NES, on the top right, there's at least 4 times as much space available on the top loader units. No need to bother with the RF box...

It was hard enough to find THAT ripoff, you're telling me that I can not only find one with a decent price but also find hardcore numbers on it?

what's the point in posting the link to that $200+ Atlona box, when I already told you that you get a SPIF+DVI to HDMI integrator unit at monoprice for about $40 ?

Because that setup requires an analog to spdif converter too.

I realize the solution you posted should technically work But I'm concerned about lag especially when it comes to lag between picture and sound. Not to mention 2 extra boxes for an NES seems excessive. There's got to be one, even if it costs the same price, electricity bills are no joke.

If you seriously think two devices like that will have ANY impact on an electricity bill, I have to ask: are you even paying one?

And if you want sound over HDMI you're going to need an analog to digital converter anyway...

Speaking of lag, I am wondering if this guy's approach to getting HDMI video will result in any input lag.

[leonk]

I strongly doubt there will be any input lag on the HDMI (DVI) NES, as (I assume) he will be using his own custom PPU (graphic generating processor for those of you that are not into the NES scene) rather than the one that's build on the NES. He's intercepting the data bus between the CPU and PPU.

He's probably using a much faster FPGA to emulate the NES PPU, but output digital video (as the NES PPU can only output analog composite video)

In any case. My biggest concern with this novel idea is the video quality. Yes, it will be HDMI, but at the end of the day, he's emulating the PPU. His mapper emulator isn't 100% accurate (there's many games, some common, that don't play perfectly on it). Also, developers for the original NES relied on NTSC/composite oddities/color bleeding to generate some of the "textures"/colors some of you remember. It doesn't translate very well to super sharp HDMI digital video.

[Smashbro29]

What hostility? A Titler is a viable option to consider. If they weren't so expensive I'd buy one myself. Hell if I find one for a good price I might buy one and circumvent the whole modification angle.

I'm just not the best at reading emotions in text and a few times someone felt one way and I was totally oblivious.

I want audio integrated into the HDMI (and I think I already said this too) for reasons of capturing it, as of right now I've got all the modern consoles ready to be recorded and the NES is really the biggest problem when it comes to playing and capturing, yes I realize that so long as no sound is coming out of the HDMI cable the analog audio port will be active, and that's just dandy for playing it, it's just frustrating because in every other case things go flawlessly because my setup was meticulously designed to be plug and play and accounts for the fact that I only have 2 HDMI ports for both playing and capture and this just throws a wrench into the works, I'll wait for a release and there will probably be an official solution.

why does the audio have to be put into the HDMI signal anyway?

cause SmashBro doesn't want an extra cable to his TV set.

I didn't say that. At this point, with how deep I am, one cable is a joke. It's 2 devices plus those cables that's making me think twice. Electricity bill was kind of a stretch but when I look at the big picture, I'd like to cut any boxes I can.

[NWrain]

I have been thinking about getting into capturing recently. HDMI video with analog sound is definitely a problem. It feels like you either have to go all component, or all HDMI.

The analog audio works great for me as a stand alone system, but I can see how it can get very complicated when you want to capture.

[Shining]

From the original thread:

"bunnyboy: Yes, the RGB PPU will work. This board uses the digital buses, not the video outputs, so composite/rf/RGB does not matter. However the extra power and bus noise probably makes those analog video signals look worse."

"bunnyboy: The FPGA updates in seconds over USB so any "enhancements" like scanlines or color palettes are very easy to change. By default I will have all those turned off."

Does this mean that the HDMI mod will work on a console that is already RGB modded, and in the future you will be able to apply custom palettes to get rid of the RGB palette?

[Aatos]

From the original thread:

"bunnyboy: Yes, the RGB PPU will work. This board uses the digital buses, not the video outputs, so composite/rf/RGB does not matter. However the extra power and bus noise probably makes those analog video signals look worse."

"bunnyboy: The FPGA updates in seconds over USB so any "enhancements" like scanlines or color palettes are very easy to change. By default I will have all those turned off."

Does this mean that the HDMI mod will work on a console that is already RGB modded, and in the future you will be able to apply custom palettes to get rid of the RGB palette?

I'd like to ask you too though, why would you effectively ruin RGB modded NES with this mod (as bunnyboy explained, the interference from his chip makes analog outputs on NES useless?) when you can just get unmodded toploader that also has no palette issues?

If you're looking to get out of your RGB deal I would seriously consider buying / trading yours (although I probably wouldn't pay what you did). I have a spare toploader and live fairly close too .

[Shining]

Yeah i know, that sounds like a crazy thing to do. But i'm having a brand new AV Famicom RGB modded(sent to Germany) as we speak. I do not know how i will react to the colors of the RGB palette, i will probably be just fine with it. But if not, it's nice to know that there might be a solution out there. Don't want to let go of that new Famicom either

[Fudoh]

I have been thinking about getting into capturing recently. HDMI video with analog sound is definitely a problem. It feels like you either have to go all component, or all HDMI.

unless you're thinking of any weird capture device I don't know, mixing HDMI video with analogue audio is never a problem. Works find on with the Micomsoft card and all Blackmagic cards. For proper capture you'll usually use a video processor as an interface anyway and here you can do the audio integration as well.

[Aatos]

Yeah i know, that sounds like a crazy thing to do. But i'm having a brand new AV Famicom RGB modded(sent to Germany) as we speak. I do not know how i will react to the colors of the RGB palette, i will probably be just fine with it. But if not, it's nice to know that there might be a solution out there. Don't want to let go of that new Famicom either

Yeah, I'm aware of your situation, hence the trade offer . Oh and if you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost you total? I bet new A/V FC's ain't cheap..

While installing hdmi mod to your fc would apparently work, you could still sell that RGB PPU'd fc for much more than a price of a composite toploader. Thus it would seem like madness to me to waste an RGB PPU with this mod, especially since there are probably a lot of people, who would still desperately need one even after HDMI solution (people with CRTs for instance)..

[Fudoh]

Yeah i know, that sounds like a crazy thing to do. But i'm having a brand new AV Famicom RGB modded(sent to Germany) as we speak

what's your setup ? What display(s) and what processors ? I would totally prefer a classic RGB mod, especially since you have your parts ready to go already.

[Shining]

Yeah i know, that sounds like a crazy thing to do. But i'm having a brand new AV Famicom RGB modded(sent to Germany) as we speak. I do not know how i will react to the colors of the RGB palette, i will probably be just fine with it. But if not, it's nice to know that there might be a solution out there. Don't want to let go of that new Famicom either

Yeah, I'm aware of your situation, hence the trade offer . Oh and if you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost you total? I bet new A/V FC's ain't cheap..

While installing hdmi mod to your fc would apparently work, you could still sell that RGB PPU'd fc for much more than a price of a composite toploader. Thus it would seem like madness to me to waste an RGB PPU with this mod, especially since there are probably a lot of people, who would still desperately need one even after HDMI solution (people with CRTs for instance)..

Let's just say it went over $200. Oh man, i must sound like a total ass . I am VERY excited about having this mod done and i'm so thankful to Moosmann. I will probably never sell it. If, however, this HDMI mod turns out to be something utterly fantastic and somehow improves over the RGB mod i just want to know what my options are. And you are right, then i should sell it instead of ruining it. But that will probably never happen. Hey, i might even like the RGB palette better.

what's your setup ? What display(s) and what processors ? I would totally prefer a classic RGB mod, especially since you have your parts ready to go already.

LCD TV with XRGB-Mini and it will probably stay like that for years to come as i don't have any room for a CRT right now. Yeah you're right, i get the feeling the picture will be cleaner with the RGB mod compared to HDMI.

[Fudoh]

With a Mini 240p via RGB will look better. That's not the source's fault, but the Mini's. I see the HDMI NES more as a standalone machine for direct connection to a TV set or via VGA using a HDFury.

[leonk]

LCD TV with XRGB-Mini and it will probably stay like that for years to come as i don't have any room for a CRT right now. Yeah you're right, i get the feeling the picture will be cleaner with the RGB mod compared to HDMI.

It depends on what you mean by "cleaner". I've read hundreds of threads over the years talking about the RGB mod. RGB mod isn't perfect. Many still have issues with it (faint vertical lines - all depends on how good your RGB amplifier is inside the NES). The color palette on the RGB PPU is also not 100% NES accurate. But it is sharper than the NES PPU.

I suspect that the HDMI/DVI NES is also not going to be 100% perfect. It's probably as sharp, if not sharper, than the RGB mod with 0 vertical lines (as it's all digital - no noise pickup). But I have concerns about things like the color palette (this is something NES clones, for example, never got right) as well as overall appearance. What about scanlines? (MAME games are super sharp and clean on an LCD monitor running on my PC, but I prefer the look of them on my 29" arcade CRT going through an ArcadeVGA! Is the HDMI NES going to make NES games look like they're been played on a PC screen??)

As all this unfolds, I'm sure there will still be no perfect NES. It will be a matter of choosing a solution that has the least amount of compromise given your particular installation and needs.

Oh, and a lot of people are talking about modding their existing NES / already modded top loader. As far as I know, at this time, you will only be able to purchase an already modded system. The circuit board will not be sold separately. Hence why the maker has been purchasing a lot of top loaders recently.

[Fudoh]

Palette problems completely aside, the RGB output on Moosmann's AV Famicom RGB mods is as good as it gets. Stunning picture through a XRGB-Mini.

As far as I know, at this time, you will only be able to purchase an already modded system. The circuit board will not be sold separately. Hence why the maker has been purchasing a lot of top loaders recently.

yeah, but how long will be able to hold this up ? He'll be sold out DAY ONE and if he accepts back-orders he'll be jammed for years.

[RGB32E]

yeah, but how long will be able to hold this up ? He'll be sold out DAY ONE and if he accepts back-orders he'll be jammed for years.

That's what I'm thinking will be the case. So, not sure it will be possible to get one of the maybe <20 units he makes available for sale. I see the only way to get one is if the price is extemely high, or some joker buys one to flip. If demand is high enough it might be motivation to release kits. However, it might be complex enough that he doesn't want to deal with the customer service aspect of people not skilled enough to install...

[kamiboy]

I'd be shocked if the unit price is going to be under $200. The market price of the Top loader alone is about $100.

[Aatos]

I see the only way to get one is if the price is extemely high

I personally think he should in fact price the first patch much higher than the final/cost based price, then gradually bring it down. That would imho be the only fair way to meet the demand.

[antron]

Can you dump the code from FPGA's? (the answer seems to be no)

Well, maybe after he's made a buck he'll release it. Sure would be nice to have it just latch out the RGB data to DACs.

[Sargon]

I am very much looking forward to this and hope the modded systems can keep up with demand.

I will keep my RGB-modded toaster NES with the XRGB-3 in my gaming room and replace the AV-modded toploader in my bedroom with an HDMI-modded toploader.