"Play Sega" saturn USB on ebay = great PCBs

[nimitz]

Those "new" saturn pad on ebay seem to be the real deal:

I bought two recently and noticed they do not suffer from the "sticky" dpad input like the older knockoff ones, I opened them up and they happen to have a different PBC. More surprising is that those new PCBs actually have "SEGA" printed on silkscreen (unlike the older knockoff ones) and as far as I can tell they do not suffer form the main problem the old ones had, that is sticky dpad input once in a while (which can *really* fuck up a run). As far as input lag go they seems to be a good frame faster, would need more testing to make sure though. They also have a driver labeled "playsega", the old ones were simply "usb controller" or something generic.






The old knockoff pads came in a variety of colors (white, black, grey) but always looked similar to that, with the sega logo in front:


Edit: And here's a pic comparing all 3 PCBs, the one on the bottom is the one that came with the Mac puyo "bundle" but apparently also has sticky input problems.


Now these "Play Sega" ones are not perfect either, they are *very* biased towards 4-way style movement (the diagonals are amazingly hard to input). But if you already have an old one buying one of these new ones and swapping the PCB and the button rubber (since the knockoff button rubbers don't make good contact with the better pcbs) will get you a really good saturn USB controller.

[nimitz]

Oh and another thing, they happen to work with some japanese games that did not recognize the driver from the old ones.

Perhaps most notably Touhou 11

[Fudoh]

just to clarify - what you call "low quality" PCBs on top, are the original SLS boards (Sega Logistics Service).

[drunkninja24]

I got one of these when they first came out.

Sadly, after a while, my right D-Pad function stopped working completely (even shorting the connection when opening the controller didn't work. Not sure what happened.

[Ed Oscuro]

I got one of these

Which one?

It's interesting about the "sticky" inputs - but I don't know what this means. My SLS ("knockoff," I suppose) pad returns immediately after being pressed in.

And how was the frame of lag tested? Just eyeballed? Even on Shoryuken there's many people who dispute that a person can tell fewer than three frames difference in lag. Eyeballing justone frame seems really incredible, possibly possible in some situations, but given these are often used on PCs which can vary wildly in their responsiveness based on your current task load, as we all know.

The part swap bit sounds interesting but I can't imagine I'd want to swap out PCBs for one with terrible diagonal inputs.

So yeah...more details please! It's an interesting topic but I'm not going to jump into believing it hook and line right away, for one I have an investment in a good two or three pads to protect

[nimitz]

just to clarify - what you call "low quality" PCBs on top, are the original SLS boards (Sega Logistics Service).

Not sure how "orginial" they are, but yeah the ones I am calling low quality are the ones with SLS on the back.



Ed: By sticky input I mean that once in a while, a dpad command will get "stuck" on for maybe half a second. I've owned more than 5 "SLS" ones and they *all* had that problem. The Play Sega ones do not.

Also, for input lag is it in fact completely possible to distinguish between 0 and 1 frame lag (and quite possibly between 1 and 2).

Here's a very nice blind test program that moozooh posted on SDA years ago:
http://www2.tky.3web.ne.jp/~yosshin/pro ... 100117.zip

Me and countless other people have tried it and after a bit everyone can reliably tell between 0 and 1 frame lag (considering OS delay, more like between 1 and 2 or 2 and 3) and by reliably I mean 19/20 or 20/20.

[Ed Oscuro]

I should remember not to quote random "people on Shoryuken!" (SOMEBODY has to be wrong) but that is an interesting link. I'll give it a shot sometime.

The lag problem just sounds like a crap driver, although certainly not something you should really try to abstract away from the hardware of the controller.

[nimitz]

Elixir happens to have one of those "official" sega ones that came with Mac puyo, opened it up for me (thanks again) and took some pics.

Here's what the real ones look like (I'll let you spot the differences between the real and the SLS one):




So there are (at least) 3 versions.

This one which is the closest to official Sega, which is also probably the best all around.

Then you have the very cheap SLS knockoff one that most people have, that has sticky dpad input problems and a "bad" driver.

Then you have that third knockoff one (play sega) that I've been referring to, while the build quality of the actual buttons/rubber pads seem to be similar to the SLS knockoffs the PCB/driver is much better, so I'd recommend those over the SLS ones.

[Ed Oscuro]

I haven't actually thought to fool around much with diagonals on the SLS pad - it will be interesting to do so now. Also will see how the driver goes. Probably just will use it with BSNES and other emulators though.

[BIL]

Nice topic, I asked about sticky directions with SLS pads years ago but never really figured it out.

My grey SLS pad died recently, and I mostly use emulation for 16-bit stuff now, so I picked up an iBuffalo SFC-styled pad. It's very solid-feeling all-around (excellent buttons) and I haven't had any sticky directions in a month's solid use. Unfortunately the d-pad isn't SFC or Saturn quality, due to being overly "clicky." Requires too much pressure to actuate, and springs back up when released. Makes micro-adjustments, rapid twitching and diagonal movements comparatively imprecise, compared to the sublime give of the two aformentioned pads. Still, it's only really noticeable in the most demanding of 2D games. For relatively forgiving stuff like much of the SFC/MD/FC action canon it's more than satisfactory. Still wish I'd seen this topic first!

[lewisit]

Those "new" saturn pad on ebay seem to be the real deal:

got one of those off ebay lately and oddly it doesn't work on my XP-PC @all (neither in Mame nor any other program) - seems to be some kind of weird driver-error

I also have two SLS-PCBs in original Saturn-shells and they were/are plug&play without any problem yet...

[Fudoh]

so I'd recommend those over the SLS ones.

Only a very few models carry the SEGA sticker, most of the official japanese ones (including the metal ones, metallic blue, golden and so on) carry the SLS sticker as well. I have a lot of both. I have the full line up from Sega's launch in Japan and I got all the ones which were later on available on ebay.

Would you mind pointing out the differences you believe to see in the PCBs between the japanese SLS ones and the ones from China ? I did open up both last night and could not see any difference.

[lettuce]

Hmmm, this is the USB saturn pad i have, never notice any problems with it...

[ryu]

Hmmm, this is the USB saturn pad i have, never notice any problems with it...

i've got one of these too. the dpad on it isn't that good as pressing left or right with too much pressure will also make it detect an upwards input as well.

[lettuce]

Hmmm, this is the USB saturn pad i have, never notice any problems with it...

i've got one of these too. the dpad on it isn't that good as pressing left or right with too much pressure will also make it detect an upwards input as well.

Hmm ill have to test. So what is regarded to be the best Saturn USB pad?

[nimitz]

Those "new" saturn pad on ebay seem to be the real deal:

got one of those off ebay lately and oddly it doesn't work on my XP-PC @all (neither in Mame nor any other program) - seems to be some kind of weird driver-error

I also have two SLS-PCBs in original Saturn-shells and they were/are plug&play without any problem yet...

Odd, I'm on XP too (SP3) and they work flawlessly, they even work with some games that didn't recognize the old one's driver. Maybe the chip was dead on arrival?

Would you mind pointing out the differences you believe to see in the PCBs between the japanese SLS ones and the ones from China ? I did open up both last night and could not see any difference.

From the picture in the first post, Look at the traces, the chip itself and the labeling.

So what is regarded to be the best Saturn USB pad?

I have one that is working great currently that was built with the best parts from about 3 pads from different factories...

They all have their flaws, but the sticky dpad input common to most "standard" models was my main problem which is fixed with those PCBs

[Fudoh]

From the picture in the first post, Look at the traces, the chip itself and the labeling.

ok, but you're mistaken about that. Here's my everyday controller on the PC. Genuine japanese Sega USB controller - exactly the layout you label as "low quality SLS":

[nimitz]

Fudoh: out of curiosity, what makes you say it's genuine?


I guess it is possible that they had two "genuine" saturn usb models made at different times. I've owned 5 of these exact PCBs, like the one you just posted and they *all* had sticky input problems and most of them had very cheap contact rubber.

[Fudoh]

Fudoh: out of curiosity, what makes you say it's genuine?

the unlicensed ones were only available in white, black and grey. This one was bought in Japan YEARS before the unlicensed ones were available on ebay.

The "ebay" SLS ones came from the same factories Sega used to produce their official ones. The molding is perfect, even the print on the boxes (if you got some with boxes) is 100% perfect. These are no "replicas". Nevertheless there have been years between Sega's release in Japan the mass-appearance on eBay. I think the chinese guys at the factory simply found the data (and molds) and turned the machines back on. It's possible that the rubber was a problem, they used a different material mix and that's the weak point of the ebay-ones. Still I can't imagine that there are problems with the actual PCBs.

[RaidenViper]

Just got two of these in the mail today.

The D-pad are terrible! compared to the SLS ones I have.

[antime]

Got myself one of these out of curiosity, and one of the things I noticed was that the quality control sticker had the year 2009 on it. Doesn't necessarily mean anything, but the month of November had been hand-marked on it.

Opening it up you immediately see signs it's a knock-off. The PCB is cheap one-layer phenolic, and there are component footprints for a crystal and capacitor that aren't actually connected to anything. The microcontroller is just an epoxy-covered bare die (though very likely the same Cypress chip used in the genuine thing). The through-hole components have all been hand-soldered, and not very well. There's flux residue all over the place. On the front edge of the PCB you can see part of the silk screen outline of the next PCB's shoulder buttons, which gives an idea of how tightly the boards are placed in the panel. The board is also assymmetrical to save a few millimeters of panel area on one side.

I don't know much about moulding, but you can clearly see marks of the mould's polish on the bottom of the button plates. Since these are non-visible parts the originals may well have looked the same. However the material used is clearly different from both my original Saturn pads and the Playstation version they released around the same time as the USB-connected ones. These buttons require noticeably more force to press, and just feel less pleasant. The shoulder tact switches doubly so.

Overall it's still cheap (easy to see why), and on my Mac it worked with MAME straight out of the box.

Edit: Don't know how I missed this, but the shoulder buttons are fucked up. I compared the Play Sega pad to a real Saturn pad, and while the top and bottom shell moulds are clearly related they have been altered, but the big issue is that the shoulder buttons and their supports seem to be completely remodelled. The end result is that the buttons pivot around the tact switch, and the outer edges will actually go inside the controller body. Terrible!

[panzeroceania]

thanks for the report antime, I thought it would be odd that they would be good as they look so cheap. Good to know to stay away.

[Ed Oscuro]

I finally loaded up a copy of Shinobi Legions today - iiiinnnnterestinggg - in SSF with one of the eBay sourced SLS pads.

I have never liked the left shoulder on the one I'm using (for some reason it's hard to trigger) but the rest is OK. Still getting used to playing with the plastic digital controller but it's not too bad really. I always find myself wishing for something like a digital keyboard, but that's another story...

[antime]

Because everyone loves bad cellphone pics, here's a few comparing an old Saturn pad to the Play Sega pad:

The remodelled shoulder buttons. You can't make it out from the picture, but many of the internal dimensions have changed. You can't fit an old button in the new controller.


This tab is missing, and is probably part of the mechanism that keeps the shoulder button in place. You can actually see telltale marks that is was present in the new mould, but removed. The poor finish of this modification also shows it was a cheap hack job. Furthermore the different tooling marks (the flat circles on the surface) clearly shows that these are not using the original mould.


This guide tab and the support pillar for the start button have been removed. Curiously you can see something that looks like the remains of a guide tab in the new shell, but it is not in the same location. I suspect that it was added to the new mould in the wrong location, and when they ran into problems during assembly they removed it from the mould (it didn't look like it was cut off during assembly). On the left side, above the >ABS< mark there is a mystery dent, as if the mould or the cast it was made from got damaged.


I haven't seen the insides of an SLS pad, but I suspect that these Play Sega controllers were made by making a cast of an existing controller, and then making new moulds from that. The shape of the shoulder buttons may have made it too difficult to take a cast, so instead new ones were sculpted.

[Napalm]

Hi, I'm new here. I originally signed up to answer an ad for a video processor (it was an old ad and the seller has since decided to keep it). I didn't think I'd get any use out of my membership as shoot em ups aren't really my genre (please don't form a lynch mob). However I have recently been researching controllers for use with emulators and fighting games, which led me here.

I am currently looking at Saturn controllers and have seen the Play Sega models on eBay UK. Being the diagonal inputs don't work well I am guessing these pads wouldn't be much good for fighting games (the guys at shoryuken don't seem to like these pads much). Also seeing as the older SLS controllers (apparently good for fighting games) are difficult to find or at least at a reasonable price, they seem to be out too.

So would you agree with the guys at shoryuken that these pads are unsuitable for fighting games, and if so can you recommend a decent alternative? I don't really want to buy an arcade stick as my main experience is with pads (and before that Amiga joysticks that that broke every two months). I would also prefer something currently in production as buying used can be a gamble, plus getting a replacement should I like it would be much less hassle. It would be nice if Sanwa (I've not used their stuff but apparently they are very good) or someone similar made controllers.

[LaserGun]

I just bought one of these Play Sega pads to try out. Straight out of the box I swapped the PCB of the Play Sega into a SLS pad casing. nimitz was very right about it being hard to hit diagonals, do not underestimate that. Not only that but it's difficult to register any direction on the d-pad too, a lot of thumb pressure is required. You have to really slide your thumb from left to right on the cross to register an input. This threw me off right away.

I immediately wanted to fix this so I grabbed some blu tack and stuck it on the plastic cross under the d-pad rubber. Just a little bit. This actually works great. Far less pressure is required to register a directional input and the diagonals work much better now. I still wouldn't say it's as good as the SLS pads but it is 95% there, the diagonal inputs are still a bit off.

[rayanah]

snaps are great, I love old Saturn pad.