The Nintendo 64 thread!

[Ganelon]

I`m looking at the car models, textures, shadows and lighting.

Well, based on those shots, I'd agree with you but those don't look like fully optimized PC settings to me (the road isn't even have real texturing). Unfortunately, I'm not able to find anything from a cursory Google search. If I'm misremembering about that, then let's simply prorate the performance over to a few months later, where this type of NASCAR 2002 screen with full optimization is what I'm talking about that looks better than GT3:

Both Shenmue 2 and Sonic Adventure 2 came out in the second half of 2001(just like MGS2 and GT3) and they already looked outdated at that point. And Metropolis Street Racer which also came out in 2001 wasn`t as good looking as GT3.

I agree with the graphical assessments, but I'm sure you realize comparing sequels using slightly updated engines as previous versions compared to brand new sequels with AAA budgets isn't entirely equivalent. I think we understand each others' points on this matter by now and can argue in circles without any progress. I need conclusive evidence of a port running much better on PS2. You're confident that the hardware specs and later games tell the story. I don't understand the specs enough to convince you otherwise, and you don't have a direct example to convince me. As is, I'm not saying the DC is better or worse than the PS2, just that I still don't have the necessary proof to make that judgment.

[Jonathan Ingram]

If you want to talk about systems getting better over time, the PS2 certainly did that.

It did. But it`s also true that some games manage to push the system to its limits very early into the system`s life. Few games came out on the PS2 that could match up to MGS2 in the graphics department and that was a 2001 game. Similarly, very few on the Gamecube can compare to Rogue Squadron II which had stuff in 2001 that none of the Gamecube games managed to replicate even years later.

I'd also argue that the mid-range games ended up better on DC since it was easier to develop for-- I think an awful lot of PS2 games underperform once you get away from the higher budget titles.

Some examples would be appreciated. Many of the PS2`s low-to-mid tier games constantly looked impressive often rivaling the big budget productions. What mid-range titles on the DC looked better than, say, Fatal Frame II-III, Siren 2, Haunting Ground, Ghosthunter and Primal?

But for a system that came out two years after the DC, at twice the price, and with breakier hardware, the PS2 wasn't super impressive. It certainly isn't in the "blows away the DC" category like the GC and XBox 1 were, which came out only one year later (with the GC specifically being quite a bit cheaper and still pumping out impressive graphics like in RE4, Metroid Prime, and F-Zero GX).

Silent Hill 3 certainly wasn`t any less of a generational leap from Dreamcast than Metroid Prime and Halo were.

And among things I didn't see on PS2, there is decent ragdoll.

That`s what happens when you play only a dozen or so of games out of the system`s thousands strong library. Here you go:



Excellent ragdoll physics(the gameplay pretty much revolves around their use). Spectacular game.

P.S. Shinkiro`s art is too awesome to not be posted in full size.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I find desert settings in games, films etc. moving, but the one in GX did very little for me.
Got it last year, bundled with Super Monkey Ball 1&2 and while SMB looks incredible to me, F-Zero GX tracks look like pipes, tapes and tubes in a box. Almost as if all background was a holographic illusion (Other M did something along those lines on purpose).
Antialiasing may be marginally superior in GX, but in Burnout 2 lighting effects steal the show. Either I'm a phototropic creature, or indeed when something has pretty lights, we all consider it looking good by nature. Fashion and jewlery indicates the latter.

Excellent ragdoll physics(the gameplay pretty much revolves around their use). Spectacular game.

I had Psi-Ops for the PC before I got a PS2. Played and liked it, but at the time I couldn't help but compare physics in computer games to Painkiller. Even Max Payne 2 paled in comparison and Half-Life 2 was yesterday's news.
As for Primal, it was a Sony game. Those tend to be as tour de force as money can buy.

[Ganelon]

This could just be down to artwork competence, but I'd say that something like DOA2 didn't have anything equalling it on PC for a while. I played PC games a lot around 2000, and in terms of polygonal smoothness, environmental effects, and the like, there didn't seem to be much comparison.

I don't really have an answer for Soulcalibur and DOA2 because there wasn't really a 3D fighter equivalent on the PC to measure up against. I'm not a fan of comparing across genres because it's very difficult to compare the graphics in a fighter compared to an action game or racer. If that's the critical difference, then I disagree with your comparison but don't have anything to prove otherwise. In the previous generation, a game like MK4 looked better on PC than on N64 or PS and in the next generation, SF4 again looked better on PC than on 360 or PS3. But yes, that ultimately says nothing about the in-between period when the PC fighting market was nearly dead.

[louisg]

This could just be down to artwork competence, but I'd say that something like DOA2 didn't have anything equalling it on PC for a while. I played PC games a lot around 2000, and in terms of polygonal smoothness, environmental effects, and the like, there didn't seem to be much comparison.

I don't really have an answer for Soulcalibur and DOA2 because there wasn't really a 3D fighter equivalent on the PC to measure up against. I'm not a fan of comparing across genres because it's very difficult to compare the graphics in a fighter compared to an action game or racer. If that's the critical difference, then I disagree with your comparison but don't have anything to prove otherwise.

Yeah, I agree there. Hmm, PC racers. Well, at the time the DC came out, I was playing stuff like NFS: High Stakes, PoP 3d, Motorcross Madness, and Quake 3 on a spanking new Celeron 500 with Voodoo3. It's hard to compare because a lot of these were hampered by being back-compatible with worse hardware, but out of all of those, I think only Q3 was something that looked exceptional compared to console releases, and even the home port of that was about as good as a middle-of-the-road system was from then. Comparing genres is really hard anyway-- PC had a lot more memory so games like FPSses back then really shined on it compared to its console counterparts, and as you pointed out genres like fighters or platformers were nearly absent on PC.

Some examples would be appreciated. Many of the PS2`s low-to-mid tier games constantly looked impressive often rivaling the big budget productions. What mid-range titles on the DC looked better than, say, Fatal Frame II-III, Siren 2, Haunting Ground, Ghosthunter and Primal?

I can't comment on those games, but the ones I've been disappointed in on the PS2 have been games like Nightshade, the ports of Silent Scope, a chopper rescue game that seemed really intriguing but will make you blind playing it (the name escapes me right now-- but I think the thing might actually be in a low res mode), and the only arcadey Ridge Racer on the system (come on, even though it's a launch title doesn't mean it should look like PS1-warmed-up), and the port of GigaWing Generations which was a big let-down for me ... I think the games you mentioned are still pretty huge efforts-- Fatal Frame at least is pretty big and well-recognized. Well, I guess Nightshade and RR5 were too. Dunno WTF went wrong with those.

I didn't see a ton of MGS2 (maybe a couple hours worth?), but it didn't strike me as being graphically bad-ass. It was about what I'd expect at the time from any system as far as textures, complexity, and polygonal jaggies go. Is there a certain part I should check out?

[Ed Oscuro]

In terms of good looking racers that gen, PS2 was second to none

Apples to oranges as usual - RE4 GameCube versus PS2. Your special feelings about a specific game on your RGB monitor compared to another game with different engine designs doesn't really mean much beyond "I like this system for this instance," which is an argument I thought you were having trouble accepting earlier when I pointed out N64 versus PSX peculiars (must've been another thread, because here we are talking about non-N64 systems).

I played this game on PC. The ragdolls weren't that impressive - not nearly as impressive as the horrifying lack of taste in the "let's blow up heads for training and fun" storyline. The black dude sure had a lot of hairdos, though that doesn't make up for Gnomotron. Just another barely-imaginative piece of late-era Midway shovelware, more or less in the same category as the Area 51 FPSes (first the Duchovny vehicle and then the Black-something Iraq Tales, a low point), The Suffering (that came out like "shuffling" which I guess makes sense), and Stranglehold. Games I have yet to play: Lord of the Rings Online, Spy Hunter: Nowhere to Run (oooh), and This is Vegas. Since I don't need more StarForce, nor MMOs probably no longer online, and This is Vegas was one of the most expensive failed Hail Marys in industry history and not released, I'm probably about done with them.

[Jonathan Ingram]

I need conclusive evidence of a port running much better on PS2.

You`re asking for something that I can`t provide. It`s the same as if I asked for proof that Dreamcast was just as capable of running Naomi 2 games as the PS2 was. I`m sure that had the Dreamcast lived longer, you would have got your evidence. It would`ve been interesting to see how it would`ve dealt with the the multiplatform games from 2002-2005 in comparison to other systems on the market.

To repeat what I said before, I don`t think a few quick, cash-grab ports are a good judge of the PS2`s power and that its native first-gen games looking better than the DC/Naomi software that had been released up to that point are much more indicative of its capabilities. If you think otherwise, there`s nothing that I can do to change your opinion. At this point, I think we should just agree to disagree.

I didn't see a ton of MGS2 (maybe a couple hours worth?), but it didn't strike me as being graphically bad-ass. It was about what I'd expect at the time from any system as far as textures, complexity, and polygonal jaggies go. Is there a certain part I should check out?

You really needed to be there to appreciate just how graphically advanced the thing was at the time. After Konami had rolled out the first trailers in 2000, the stuff shown in them was so impressive that it led to a widespread speculation that the footage was in fact low-level CGi and not real-time at all. More trailers followed accompanied by glowing hands-on impressions from gaming press. Then finally Konami released a demo disc(with Zone of the Enders as a bonus) and lo and behold it really did look that good. The game pushed tons of geometry, had great lighting and particle effects and more importantly it did everything it did at 60fps. The hype was insane and it only further contributed to the Dreamcast`s demise.

I would say the game looks good throughout, but the tanker part is probably the most impressive one.

[louisg]

To repeat what I said before, I don`t think a few quick, cash-grab ports are a good judge of the PS2`s power and that its native first-gen games looking better than the DC/Naomi software that had been released up to that point are much more indicative of its capabilities. If you think otherwise, there`s nothing that I can do to change your opinion. At this point, I think we should just agree to disagree.

You really needed to be there to appreciate just how graphically advanced the thing was at the time. After Konami had rolled out the first trailers in 2000, the stuff shown in them was so impressive that it led to a widespread speculation that the footage was in fact low-level CGi and not real-time at all. More trailers followed accompanied by glowing hands-on impressions from gaming press.

I think I mentioned more than just cash-grab ports, including a cornerstone launch title. It's kind of like the Saturn-- I love the Saturn, but I have to admit that the quality of the games varied a lot because it was hard to develop for. Daytona and Virtua Fighter, which should've been given great care, got completely munched. You have games that look like they're off a 3do, and games that compare favorably with the PS1.

What I'm saying is that the PS2 is the same way as the Saturn-- very inconsistent. On both Saturn and PS2, there are games which weren't AAA efforts but still should've looked better and ran better than they did, just the way more modest games on other systems generally perform fine. That's my point, not that the PS2 didn't have some excellent-looking games, because clearly it did. I'm just pointing out that the two systems have their definite strengths and weaknesses.

Re: MGS2, this really just underscores what I was saying about the runaway hype-train back then. I was there at the time, and positively underwhelmed. Just because the gaming press was peeing themselves does not mean that the game was worth peeing yourself over! There's always a lot of hype in the industry, and it can be hard to tune out...

[Ed Oscuro]

The Dreamcast I've used was loud and, aside from its VGA output, didn't really seem to fill a pressing need. But maybe that could've been ultimately fixed like the PS2 slim model fixed the Sony console's own sound troubles. I've always thought that the GameCube was more capable than the port of Phantasy Star Online Ep 1 & 2 demonstrated with its low poly count and rather stingy character draw distance.

The Dreamcast's problem was it was considered dead in the water even before the other guys launched. For the other systems, it seemed to me at the time that the GameCube's library was too limited (I kept it for a long while) but as time goes on I realize I've always spent more time with it (that's due to not having PS2s or an Xbox of my own until lately, though) and the GameBoy Player is something the other systems don't boast. For good or ill Nintendo certainly had that synergy idea down pat.

[Jonathan Ingram]

I think I mentioned more than just cash-grab ports, including a cornerstone launch title.

Hmm? I think there`s some misunderstanding. That reply was meant for Ganelon. Or maybe I don`t understand something - it`s too late in the night.

What I'm saying is that the PS2 is the same way as the Saturn-- very inconsistent.

And the Dreamcast was different how? Most of the low-to-mid range titles looked positively atrocious. To say that the Dreamcast felt like Playstation 1.5 at times would be a huge understatement. In fact, I would say that Dreamcast`s mid-range stuff was about on par with the PS2`s absolute bottom. Remember the awful PSX to Dreamcast ports? Or Sorcerian? Or Seventh Cross Evolution? Or Illbleed? Or, heck, Skies of Arcadia which in terms of graphical detail was more comparable to Threads of Fate for the PSX than to any of the PS2`s better RPGs? There wasn`t any more consistency to the visual quality of the Dreamcast`s games than in PS2`s case.

Just because the gaming press was peeing themselves does not mean that the game was worth peeing yourself over! There's always a lot of hype in the industry, and it can be hard to tune out...

Nice one. I didn`t think MGS2 looked good because someone told me to. Neither did anyone else. If you think it was standard fare at the time, you really need something to back up this claim with.

[EmperorIng]

I think the PS2 vs Dreamcast debate here might need to be split off into another topic - while an interesting conversation in and of itself it's kind of pushing on that whole n64 thing...

Even if the sound is horribly compressed, I am still impressed to this day they were able to fit the entirety of Resident Evil 2 into an N64 cartridge. That is some programming wizardry right there.

More like the N64 is a Zelda unit these days with a handful of other worthy games. The PS1 has many more good titles, and much more genre variety.

It's kind of funny that ever since the n64 Nintendo has been trying its damnedest to convince us that 3D games are the best games ever made. And what are the biggest sellers Nintendo has ever had in recent times? Wii Sports (which were the NES sports titles), New Super Mario Bros. Wii, and Donkey Kong Country Returns!

Nintendo, around the time of the N64, apparently grew deathly afraid of 2D gaming, despite that's what they had always been good at and what has sold the most.

[Skykid]

That`s what happens when you play only a dozen or so of games out of the system`s thousands strong library.

Story of his life, it seems.

[Skykid]

Any chance we could get the N64 thread back?

[KAI]

Any opinions about G.A.S.P!! Fighters' NEXTream, Fighter Destiny 2 and Dual Heroes?
I've heard terrible critics about them.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think the PS2 vs Dreamcast debate here might need to be split off into another topic - while an interesting conversation in and of itself

hah!

http://residentevil.wikia.com/Resident_ ... 4_version)

I would kill, KILL, to play this.

spoilers: it's the gamecube version but less complete

The theoretical nostalgia is killing me...

I'm getting a headache just thinking about it. One weakness of the N64 - just not enough horsepower to do what it's supposed to at a good rate, sometimes.

[null1024]

Any opinions about G.A.S.P!! Fighters' NEXTream, Fighter Destiny 2 and Dual Heroes?
I've heard terrible critics about them.

From what I know, FD2 is extremely similar to the first one.
I at least think it did some neat things. Not a great game, but at least interesting. The point system was rather cool. In lieu of better fighters, it's passable.
Can't say shit about the others, never played them.

[Obiwanshinobi]

In terms of good looking racers that gen, PS2 was second to none

Apples to oranges as usual - RE4 GameCube versus PS2. Your special feelings about a specific game on your RGB monitor compared to another game with different engine designs doesn't really mean much beyond "I like this system for this instance," which is an argument I thought you were having trouble accepting earlier when I pointed out N64 versus PSX peculiars (must've been another thread, because here we are talking about non-N64 systems).

Mmm, right, care to name one RACER on any platform at all that YOU thought looked better than what YOU thought looked best on PS2 at the time? The first that comes to my mind was the PC version of NFS: Most Wanted (2005), but I wasn't following car games much back then.

As for ports looking best on PS2, it's not saying much, but Wikipedia told me that Gauntlet Dark Legacy was more glitchy on 'Cube and Xbox (and slower on 'Cube in places). Since all those platforms were pretty new and the game had low poly count, it's barely saying anything. (And since it was MIDWAY, who cares if the game was any good, especially in co-op? Again, though, talking about THIS would be off-topic).

Well, I guess Nightshade and RR5 were too. Dunno WTF went wrong with those.

Other than looking cheap (character models and animations are more elaborate than stages), I don't get what you thought was wrong with Nightshade. As a matter of fact I can't think of a single game produced or published by Sega that wouldn't look cheap at that point, except maybe for Sonic games (that sold pretty well from what I know, although I have no idea who bought those). Not sure about various OutRun iterations (pre-2006), but I guess it was better funded for the same reasons Sonic games were.
VF4 Evo doesn't look cheap, but - just like F-Zero GX - I can't remember its graphics being particulary praised even by the enthusiasts.
Oh yes, NiGHTS and Virtual-On remakes, as well as Fantasy Zone II DX don't look cheap. 2007-2008, though - not exactly that point in time.

MGS2 actually makes me think of the first Riddick game. Very boxy levels, very careful texture mapping and lighting. Sure, MGS2 didn't look nearly as impressive in FPP view, but the concept seems similar.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I read Saturn people in the US to this day have their ways of playing Saturn Bomberman online, using real hardware.

[Skykid]

Yeah, so that's when you plop on this thing, and BOOM! you are back in business:

[img]64DD[/img]

OK, I don't think it really added any horsepower, but we are talking about a universe where this thing would have taken off. Most of us would be on Randnet playing Goldeneye Online Edition, and everyone else would be on a very primitive Playstation network playing god knows what.

The ultimate wallet busting novelty.

Tbh, it could have been something nice, but there's bugger all to play on it unless you can read Japanese. Doshin the Giant is cool (and on Cube thankfully). I'm unformed some of the Mario Artists are amusing, but it's really a £500 F-Zero X track editor.

Still, if you really like F-Zero X...

I read Saturn people in the US to this day have their ways of playing Saturn Bomberman online, using real hardware.

Would it be cool if you just go to another thread now?

[KAI]

(come on, even though it's a launch title doesn't mean it should look like PS1-warmed-up)

WTF U TALKIN' BOUT?? RRV looks and plays awesome even today! maybe you think that way cause RT4 looked awesome.

[R79]

Um... how did Shenmue II look outdated in 2001? :/ The few PS2 games that were around were full of jaggies, loading times, bland environments etc.

PS2 arguably didn't even count until VF4E and Gradius V or DOJ appeared. As for Gamecube, just like the Dreamcast before it, all the so-called exclusives ended up getting ported (all Capcom games like RE4, K7, VJ, their own Twilight Princess that nobody played, Monkey Ball etc.)
You're basically left with Mario Sunshine... tail-end Pokemon GBA fusion games, and a graphical overhaul of MGS. Oh, and cel-shaded cutesy Zelda.

Special mention to average RPGs like Skies of Arcadia, that immediately flopped on Dreamcast, and then got obscure ports to the seriously niche Gamecube, inevitably ending up as eBay bid-frenzy fodder.

[null1024]

I read Saturn people in the US to this day have their ways of playing Saturn Bomberman online, using real hardware.

Netlink. The carts are cheap [seriously, check Amazon] and are direct dial over the phone, so you just call up your buddy's machine and get it on.

Back on topic, 64DD could have been pretty neat, but I can't see it selling [unless there was a 64DD only Zelda released alongside it].
I'm still wondering if there was any actually successful console expansion though other than the PC-Engine's CD drive. I'd have thought the failure of the 32X [which could have been moderately successful if the Saturn wasn't about to be released at the same time] would have killed any manufacturer interest in making console addons.

Also, is there any emulator that supports it?

[EmperorIng]

I mean, I think the Sega CD sold decently - I think people saw it as somewhat a legitimate add-on.

the 32x was just Sega of America trying to play with the big boys and fucking up royally.

Watching a few videos of Doom 64, I can say that it looks more appealing to me at my particular age than popping Goldeneye back in now. Even if graphically speaking, the game kind of looks like ass.

[louisg]

Um... how did Shenmue II look outdated in 2001? :/ The few PS2 games that were around were full of jaggies, loading times, bland environments etc.

I'd argue that the second Shenmue game was pretty flickery and jaggy :/ I think they did it pretty fast.

Oh, and cel-shaded cutesy Zelda.

That's a great looking Zelda game. Uneven in gameplay, sure, but the look is great. It's too bad that most gamers need everything to be grim and gritty all of the time-- it's how we wound up with that incredibly dated-looking one where everything is glowing They really should have had sunglasses as an item you could get.

(come on, even though it's a launch title doesn't mean it should look like PS1-warmed-up)

WTF U TALKIN' BOUT?? RRV looks and plays awesome even today! maybe you think that way cause RT4 looked awesome.

That's... I dunno what to say. man! No offense, but I feel like someone just told me that the best looking SNES racer is Cannondale Cup. I have a good time with RR5 (played the hell out of it with a friend 2p the other day-- lots of fun!), but I'm hard-pressed to think of a less-detailed, washed-out, pixely looking game from that generation (especially one as mainstream and high budget!), and the usage of fog in 2p mode was downright N64-worthy. It's a game where I really wish they had waited until they had a grip on programming for the PS2 before they tried it, because it really is good, it's just a bit rough around the edges (literally!).

RT4 *did* look awesome though. Namco really did a fantastic job with that one. But of course now we're comparing end-of-the-generation badassery with launch-era flailing-- not really fair!

As for ports looking best on PS2, it's not saying much, but Wikipedia told me that Gauntlet Dark Legacy was more glitchy on 'Cube and Xbox (and slower on 'Cube in places). Since all those platforms were pretty new and the game had low poly count, it's barely saying anything. (And since it was MIDWAY, who cares if the game was any good, especially in co-op? Again, though, talking about THIS would be off-topic).

Yep. If there's one thing about Midway, it's that they really know how to blow it But hey, on the N64, they did some good stuff! Or they at least found a pretty talented porting team. It's really too bad about some of their later releases because they are good games at their core.

But speaking about N64 sucking at 2d and/or Midway-- what about NBA Hangtime? I know it's not a huge technical feat, but check it out: It's not blurred, I think it's actually low res, looks good, sounds good... why couldn't there have been more like that on the N64? Does the N64 really suck at 2d, or was it a case of not many people trying? Keep in mind there was a serious stigma about 2d in the States. Any 2d game released on these 3d systems would inevitably be met with a review claiming that the graphics are about the same as a Genesis game.

Was someone mentioning the 64DD there? Literally, this was the thing that kept me from wanting an N64-- the threat of magnetic media. I'd already been through that with 80s home computers, and let me tell you, it sucks when a commercial game disk decides to bite the dust, and that wasn't a rare occurrence.

[EmperorIng]

As an aside, regardless of what you think about Wind Waker as a game, the game's graphics still hold up, and are appealing and pleasing to the eye to this day. That's quite a feat, when I pop in games like Jet Grind Radio, Okami, and Wind Waker and don't find the visuals nearly as dated as what was "top of the line" back then.

Though, to go back to the N64 Zeldas, even as a kid I never really understood those bizarre textures they used for things like stairs. I mean, ha, they never looked like stairs, at least to me!

[Jonathan Ingram]

PS2 arguably didn't even count until VF4E and Gradius V or DOJ appeared.

Yeah, and the PSX must have not counted until DDP and Einhander, correct?

Though, to go back to the N64 Zeldas, even as a kid I never really understood those bizarre textures they used for things like stairs. I mean, ha, they never looked like stairs, at least to me!

IIRC, the N64 had a 4kb limit for textures. There wasn`t much the developers could do to make them look like stairs short of turning the latter into full polygonal structures.

[BryanM]

Best-selling game for the 64dd's predecessor: Super Mario Brothers 2.

The added sound samples made the title screen music of games sound better though. Kid Icarus's heinous title song is actually tolerable. And the Metroid theme is a thing of beauty.

But by and large add ons were dumb, and making a game for them was just a way to make your game less successful than it could be.

The Neo Geo CD might have served a purpose: the carts were so goddamn expensive that it uh, would save you money in the long run if you bought a lot of games.

What was the draw of the 64dd? Lots of save space? Mother 3 was ultimately made for a system with the leastest amount of save space ever, so I guess it wasn't really that goddamn important, was it?

A world where the 32x was released years earlier, as a completely separate stand alone console, backwards compatible, as the ultimate 2D console of all time, beefier than a Neo Geo... well it still probably would have gone down in flames. One of the most volatile times in vidya game history, 6 years between completely new consoles, it wouldn't have had the juice to make it that much smexier than the SNES, cost effectively. Would've been better to just make more Genesis games. Maybe, like, a freakin' answer to Dragon Quest. (Wait, Lunar was supposed to be that game right? Released on.. the CD. Haha. Good times.)

The DS of today really does sit at a privileged place.

... this is a bit off track. But I'm glad manufacturers seem to have finally, finally learned their lesson about dividing their user base without significant performance gain.

4kb limit for textures

Holy Jesus are the cost cutting measures they use to make consoles cheap draconian. I freaking know the N64 only had a 4K texture cache. And every time I see the number again, I'm surprised completely anew again.

Here's a bit of context: copy and paste the text of us talking on some thread's page into notepad. Save it. That text is more data than Link had for the surface data of any given level he's in.

That's really why "fuck it, this polygon is green" was the best art direction ever.

[louisg]

Holy Jesus are the cost cutting measures they use to make consoles cheap draconian. I freaking know the N64 only had a 4K texture cache. And every time I see the number again, I'm surprised completely anew again.

Yeah, seriously. I'm the same way. When I first heard about that, I thought, "well, surely that doesn't mean textures HAD to use the cache, right?". Oh man. But I guess that'd be 64x64 at 256 colors, and I'm assuming the textures were fewer bits than that (or.. I'd hope..?). Or maybe they just got around it by tessellating the hell out of it and using a different texture for each poly; I dunno. Considering that on the PS1 or Saturn you'd have to tesselate a surface a lot to prevent warpage anyway, I start to wonder if this limitation isn't overblown.

I wonder if anyone here has direct experience with that and could share some insight. I'm pretty curious about how it all shakes out.

[Ed Oscuro]

Holy Jesus are the cost cutting measures they use to make consoles cheap draconian. I freaking know the N64 only had a 4K texture cache. And every time I see the number again, I'm surprised completely anew again.

Here's a bit of context: copy and paste the text of us talking on some thread's page into notepad. Save it. That text is more data than Link had for the surface data of any given level he's in.

uhh I'm pretty sure that's not it

The texture cache represented the amount of texture data that was available at any time for one rendering pass, I think. It takes multiple passes to render a scene, and while fetching data to refill a cache is usually quite slow, they would've been able to use main RAM as a larger texture cache, allowing a lot more texture data to run through the rendering system in every frame.

But please don't say that levels only have 4K worth of data for textures, that's just silly.

Or maybe they just got around it by tessellating the hell out of it and using a different texture for each poly; I dunno.

Many games didn't do this much. A '97 issue of Nintendo Power (the Extreme-G issue) crows that Diddy Kong Racing had a first in wrapping textures around a multi-sided polygon (i.e. a character's head), and I've read that later games used different techniques - dedicated programming to find the best format for textures in Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine, and a combination of multiple textures and possibly even flatshaded polys to duplicate a big texture in Conker's BFD. That's something vaguely interesting about the N64 - in some ways the way games look is vaguely reminiscent of a tile-based 2D game because each individual texture wasn't big enough to have big alpha-masked or empty areas, so to get the same result you have to cobble them together from smaller textures.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Still no answer, huh?
Enjoy the thread of two people talking to each other about three games they don't wish didn't exist at the shrine of shattered beliefs. You can take the rest to PM for all I care.