Good Place to Start?

[m0ng00se]

I just kinda stumbled into hardcore shmups last week and I'm not sure if I'm lost.

What's a good game to start with to stop being crap at shmups? I've been playing DDP and Batsugun a lot this past week and now I can get to the third level of each without getting shot but then I just explode halfway through or in the first few seconds of the boss and can't get any further. I'm not sure if I see myself creeping up on my high score and it makes me make stupid decisions so that I make sure I top it, or if I'm just supposed to be taking this long.

Is there anything at a less manic pace (but faster than Gradius) that might better ease me out of low-level play?

[rancor]

If you just started last week, don't expect any immediate progress. Are you using MAME, or a console? Anyhow, a great place to start is in the doujin (PC) scene with one title in particular. The best part is that it's freeware. Let me introduce you to a friend of mine:

BLUE WISH RESURRECTION +
http://www.sk8tokyo.com/shmup/software/BWR_PLUS1.11.exe

You can thank me later.

Oh, and check my site for other cool stuff.

edit: grammar / spelling. Don't type while someone is talking in your ear, you'll sound like a fool.

[m0ng00se]

MAME mostly. I have an arcade stick for Street Fighter tournaments that works on my computer so I use that to play. It's for 360 and I don't really like playing on anything else now (find the stick to be way easier on my wrists) so I guess my main options are PC (via emu or otherwise) and 360 until I mod my stick for ps3.

I have Raiden IV somewhere, I played it a few times like a year ago but I don't know where it is. Technically speaking, it's not my first day or anything, but back then I couldn't make it past the second boss on a single credit until I jacked up my life and bomb counts like a jerk. The arcade stuff is a lot nicer, I think.

I'll check out that Wish game right now.

EDIT: Oh it's really fun. It's like a more-bullets DDP. I'll try it again later when it's not too late for the hori, I'll probably die less. I also don't know why all of a sudden I got two extra lives but I'll take them.

[Hagane]

The best place to start would be reading a bit on the basics of the genre IMO, so you don't struggle more than you have to

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30458

Prometheus's and Icarus's guides are must reads.

As for games, I started with Sengoku Blade. First loop is pretty easy (second loop is not, though, I still haven't cleared it after playing it for nearly two years) and does a good job teaching you the basics. On the bullet hell side of things, Touhou on Normal is great for beginners. Pick one of the easier games such as Mountain of Faith or Imperishable Night. IN in particular has a practice mode that lets you select boss patterns, great for practice and building dodging skills.

[chempop]

Prometheus's and Icarus's guides are must reads.

Eventually, yes.. but don't rush it. We're talking about someone who is just barely dipping their feet in, let them have a chance to figure some things out on their own first - that's half the fun, no?

Those who barge in to the full extent of the jam are going to burn out so quickly.

[NTSC-J]

What's a good game to start with to stop being crap at shmups?

The real question is: "What's a good game to start with to start being crap at shmups?"

These games are hard and take a lot of dedication, so don't expect too much too soon. Set modest goals for yourself (getting to stage 4, no-missing stage 2, hitting the extend, etc.) and raise the bar over time.

DDP and Batsugun are good places to start, just don't worry too much about chaining full stages in DDP or milking the stage 4 boss of Batsugun just yet.

[DocHauser]

You might want to try Batsugun Special Version, as you should find it a bit easier than the original. According to my ShmupMame stats, I've only played it for 3 hours, and I managed to 1CC it.

[Erppo]

1. Touhou on Normal
2. Touhou on Hard
3. Touhou on Lunatic
4. Dodonpachi

Guaranteed success.

[Hagane]

Eventually, yes.. but don't rush it. We're talking about someone who is just barely dipping their feet in, let them have a chance to figure some things out on their own first - that's half the fun, no?

Those who barge in to the full extent of the jam are going to burn out so quickly.

I mean, to learn the basics such as tap dodging and stuff like that. Learning how to spot pattern behavior and then reacting with the corresponding dodge technique makes things much much easier.

[Special World]

If you have a 360, I would recommend Mushi Futari's Black Label DLC. Combined with the on-disc content, it has a huge range of difficulty modes, but the Black Label versions are a good deal less difficult. There's enough content to make it a master class in shooting games.

[m0ng00se]

What's a good game to start with to stop being crap at shmups?

The real question is: "What's a good game to start with to start being crap at shmups?"

These games are hard and take a lot of dedication, so don't expect too much too soon. Set modest goals for yourself (getting to stage 4, no-missing stage 2, hitting the extend, etc.) and raise the bar over time.

DDP and Batsugun are good places to start, just don't worry too much about chaining full stages in DDP or milking the stage 4 boss of Batsugun just yet.

I do believe I've already started being crap.

Things like tap-dodging mean very little to me (so I guess maybe if there's an idiot's guide to basic stuff like that, it might be a useful link), unless it's where you tap back and forth to get through the checkerboard-y patterns, or maybe to dodge when a boss shoots like a laser beam at you and then you don't want to corner yourself so you just move a little.

I'll just keep working on my cave games (should I be playing a specific version of DDP?) and whatever random stuff catches my fancy in the meantime. I'll definitely try anything I can get to run on MAME, and in December I can afford anything I want on NA XBLA.

To the full extent of the jam is totally my favorite phrase this month.


Is the hitbox smaller in Batsugun Special? Because I just got well into stage 4 before my first miss, wow. Well that and I changed to the girl.

Thanks a lot though, everyone.

[oboewan42]

Just to throw out a recommendation here: Jamestown. It's $10 on Steam ($5 more gets you the OST and the DLC, which adds 3 extra ships and a random-ship-select-on-death mode). It's worth every penny.

Mainly, the difficulty curve is phenomenal; unlike other shmups, this game actively encourages you to work your way up through the difficulty settings.

(There's no "default" difficulty setting. The easiest difficulty setting, which the game calls "normal", stops at stage 3 of 5. There are four difficulty levels above that, two of which extend the game by one stage. The final difficulty is locked at the start, and features unbombable bullets.)

The difficulty settings themselves are well-designed. The general enemy layout stays pretty much constant; the bullets, however, become gradually more frequent. This means that you can play lower difficulty levels to get the feel of a stage, then gradually crank the difficulty up a notch, applying what you've learned.

The fact that it's level-select-based (though there is a full-run mode available) is also a good thing. The game isn't designed around trying to 1CC all the things; rather, it's designed around replaying individual stages on progressively higher difficulties. If you can't beat a certain stage on a certain difficulty, you can just try that stage again; you don't need to go back to the beginning of the game. This helps a lot when practicing!

Plus, there are a crapton of bonus/challenge missions. It's got the closest thing to a training mode I've ever seen in a shmup. Think Street Fighter IV trials, but less arcane.

Basically, the developer designed the game to appeal to both Cave junkies, and people who are intimidated by shmups. IMO, they did a good job of it. My main caveat is the lack of a TATE mode (instead, the game actually uses a widescreen display, despite being a vertically-scrolling shmup).

It's what got me into bullet hell!

(Oh, and if you have friends, the game has great local co-op for up to 4 players. One thing this game does differently, which helps a lot when playing with people who are less experienced in shmups, is the lives system. Single-player uses a traditional lives-and-continues system, but in multiplayer, there are no lives. Instead, there's a respawn timer, which gradually increases in length the more you die; other players can also revive you by picking up certain powerups. If all players are dead simultaneously, that's a continue. Of course, this makes the game easier with more players, but that just makes it more fun. There's also an unlockable "hardcore mode" which disables the respawn timer.)

(Edited to add lots more info.)

[shmuppyLove]

Is the hitbox smaller in Batsugun Special? Because I just got well into stage 4 before my first miss, wow. Well that and I changed to the girl.

Yes the Special Version has a much smaller hitbox, among other changes.

"Special Edition".

The special edition has many innovations,compared to the normal edition.It features a microscopic (your cockpit,mainly) hitbox, an shield protecting you form one hit (it is renewed every time you level up,and of course you get an extra bomb), bombs are much powerful, since consist in a huge explosion covering the screen (while your pilot raises his/her thumb up!) and affecting everything, there are pink pigs that give you points and lavander pigs in key spots that give you experience points, you can score more points on stage 5 by using the moving platform trick and during the round tanks section and,last but not least, the game features four rounds (you will restart from the second stage the second time,third stage the third time,fourth stage the fourth time).You will get suicide bullets on all three loops (unless you point blank an enemy during its explosion), and the game will switch to normal (yes, you actually start from easy on first round) on second round,then hard and very hard.

I could be wrong, but I believe Special Version also added autofire on C?

[KAI]

Pinksweets.

[t0yrobo]

Battle Bakraid. It has a big variety of ships, and a pretty forgiving difficulty curve with patterns that aren't to fast or complicated. Just ignore any scoring beyond medaling.

[Seahawk]

Try 1943. No scoring system and no rank to worry about - just shoot and dodge, and manage powerups.

The game has an perfect difficulty curve, to beat the final stage you will have to have mastered weapons and life management, as well as being able to dodge bullets.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Vulgus. Apparently Capcom released the PC version for FREE.

[Ed Oscuro]

All kinds of concrete YOU MUST PLAY THIS suggestions here, which may or may not coincide with your own playing style, be totally worthless, etc. There is no "best game" from the standpoint of what'll be most fun to you - or rather we can't get in your head and so it can't be determined by us; you'll have to figure that out.

It is probably best to survey all the games you can to see if games of a certain type or from one era appeal to you above others. There certainly are some games that allow you to practice to become better with the mechanics of the genre, though, but this can be overstated - if you end up liking older games with a slow plane, practicing danmaku games with adjustable ship speed won't be obviously useful.

[Special World]

For new players, I would also recommend Gate of Thunder and Blazing Lazers for Turbografx-16 (and Wii). Eschatos for 360 is also a great introductory shooter that I feel spans subgenres really well, from Space Invaders style to manic shooter to full bullet hell.

[Obiwanshinobi]

How about "of all PSX, Saturn and PS2 shmups, the one that makes me put the TV on its side is Sonic Wings Special"? On the PC, it's Raiden III.
Horizontal scrollers are a different story, but if Gradius is too slow-paced for you tastes, I suggest Eliminate Down. On Saturn, it's Hyper Duel (Saturn Mode).
If you don't wanna be naughty, there's Warning Forever.

[blackoak]

I always recommend Espgaluda here, since the ability to slow down the bullet patterns at will really helps beginners develop their visual pattern recognition skillz.

[Obscura]

Between DDP and Batsugun, I'd recommend Batsugun more for a complete beginner. DDP starts getting pretty nuts at stage 5.

Some other things I'd recommend:

Blue Wish Resurrection +: Very easy game on normal difficulty with default settings.

Perfect Cherry Blossom and Imperishable Night: A lot of people here bash the Touhou games, but I think the first three Windows ones were pretty good. Anyways, on normal difficulty, both of these should be very manageable. Imperishable Night on Normal was my first shmup 1CC.

Deathsmiles: By far the easiest Cave game I've played. Assuming the arcade version, pick Rosa, work right-to-left (the 1-up you get from the Volcano stage isn't worth seeing it at higher rank IMO, since it's by far the hardest of the first six stages). Don't bomb against Jitterbug, and the 2-up he drops means you literally don't have to dodge any of Tyrannosatan's patterns.

Armed Police Batrider: Training and Normal course should both be fairly doable. For Normal course, activate Stage select and Player select; put the stages in "Skyhigh, Sewers, Airport" order and choose either Strawman or Maria.

Espgaluda: I personally don't like the game for several reasons, but it is a good beginner choice. Kakusei is a nice "safety net"- better than bombs, since it teaches you how to fly through the pattern, rather than just removing the pattern.

Crimzon Clover: The bullet patterns here are pretty intense, but an amazing training mode, lots of extra lives, and lots of screen clears make it not so bad for a beginner. That TLB is a complete asshole, though; I've never managed to beat him.

Something that people here are likely to recommend that I don't agree with:
Mushihimesama Futari Black Label: Yeah, it's relatively easy for a Cave game, but the difficulty curve is dumb as hell. The third stage is complete nightmare of a level, and literally harder than the entire rest of the game combined. Also, the score system is less than no fun at all.

[TransatlanticFoe]

DDP and Batsugun as starting points? Probably worth branching out either side, to later Cave and earlier Toaplan, then. I find it's good to switch from time to time lest you get burned out/frustrated with solid hammering of any given game.

Also, dunno about other ports but the Saturn DDP has a Saturn mode which is a step down on difficulty and lets you fight the true last boss without the dumb 2nd loop requirements. I've not hit DDP in MAME since I got the Saturn version but I guess you can always tone the difficulty down there (because that'd be easier and cheaper than getting the gear in!)? Might be useful if you've hit a brick wall as lower difficulty usually means slower bullets and more time to react/plan - when you've nailed it, turn it back up. There is no shame on learning with lower difficulty to get yourself in the zone.

[azinth]

Touhou is a nice skill-builder since the games have very hard patterns on higher difficulties (harder than most Cave games), yet they give you lots of resources, so you have some room within the game to experiment and try different things.

It doesn't really matter what kind of game you choose though, as long as it's hard enough to require actual work on your part. If you want to get better, the more important thing is how you approach the game(s) you eventually choose to play. Take a tactical approach where you look for strategies and routes that will allow you to get through each stage section consistently, and rely on flailing and 'reflex' dodging as little as possible. Deaths and failed runs should be treated as learning experiences; take note of every mistake you make to figure out what you did wrong so you won't do the same thing again. And nevah give up

[hermit crab]

Ketsui.

Not saying it's the easiest game in the world or anything but it is fair in the way that it doesn't really have shit appear seemingly from nowhere and kill you, like can be the case with Dodonpachi, and never really gets "manic" like that. And it's just plain fun, has nice (not overly stimulating) graphics and music. Also works in MAME.

[Bananamatic]

Take a tactical approach where you look for strategies and routes that will allow you to get through each stage section consistently, and rely on flailing and 'reflex' dodging as little as possible.

boring old man

[Kaiser]

Take a tactical approach where you look for strategies and routes that will allow you to get through each stage section consistently, and rely on flailing and 'reflex' dodging as little as possible.

boring old man

+1 to Bananamatic. Newcomers should'nt be forced to learn the superplay tactics because it's a bad habit that will burn them out as they will failing to try to replicate high-level strategies. They should instead do as they please, they should come up with their own routes that will feel more or less comfortable to them and that way they will avoid burning out. Also scoring beyond extends is A BAD IDEA so I not recommend for newcomers.

EDIT: I would recommend Thunder Force V for PSX on Normal for your first 1cc, it was mine. That game teaches you the basics of memorization and a bit of dodging. Also how in some situations what weapon works best which applies for many pre-1995 shmups.

[Zaarock]

Take a tactical approach where you look for strategies and routes that will allow you to get through each stage section consistently, and rely on flailing and 'reflex' dodging as little as possible.

ewcomers should'nt be forced to learn the superplay tactics because it's a bad habit that will burn them out as they will failing to try to replicate high-level strategies. They should instead do as they please, they should come up with their own routes that will feel more or less comfortable to them and that way they will avoid burning out.

Pretty sure he doesn't mention superplay routes anywhere in that post :p

[Cagar]

Ketsui.
It's not easy, but it's simple & clean.

[Special World]

Something that people here are likely to recommend that I don't agree with:
Mushihimesama Futari Black Label: Yeah, it's relatively easy for a Cave game, but the difficulty curve is dumb as hell. The third stage is complete nightmare of a level, and literally harder than the entire rest of the game combined.

That could be said of half of Cave's games. The third level is always a wall, and then level four eases off a good bit, and then level five brings back the hurt. Level three of Futari Black Label is definitely a typical Cave wall, but stage five is definitely harder because of the last boss.