Which version of Futari should I play?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The third one, starting at about 25:30 is pretty much the run of a lifetime for me, and even with absurd amounts of luck, I barely make a dent in stage 5 (even making stage 5 is super-rare for me).

You need to be a bit more aggressive with scoring early on if you want the extends. There's a good chunk of points to be had that helps get the extend before the St2 boss if you wait to kill the giant icicles (and thus net a large bullet cancel bonus from all the jellyfish bullets they spawn) and the sooner you build up the counter, the easier it is to grab the extends early. Also, you need to try and grab amber at close range more. You don't need to actually be pointblanking when you kill something, just rush in so when the amber starts to fall you get the green or blue aura bonus which adds a lot to the counter than simply grabbing normal amber.

That last death was you basically panicked and just sat there (?). Actually, I see a number of panic bombs when you're not actually about to be hit; I think you're just not familiar enough with Futari, possibly because you're convinced Futari sucks and can't be bothered to seriously learn it like DOJ (which is unquestionably more difficulty, sorry but it is).

Also, one of the easiest ways to cheap through stage sections is just to hold Laser and slowly tap dodge side to side. The beetles are full-screen lockon, do most of Reco's shot damage, and their blue lock-on laser moves the opposite way you move, meaning it'll latch on to enemies approaching from the side you're moving away from as well as in front of you. It's absurdly safe to clear the screen this way. You could probably ignore scoring and just roll through the game sitting at the bottom of the screen while holding laser the whole way and do pretty decently what with how crazy broken Reco BL is, lol.

[n0rtygames]

I do not understand how anyone can call this game easy and call any other Cave other than Ibara, Pink Sweets, and maybe Dangun Feveron even remotely challenging.

You should watch replays and you'll see that your style of play is the polar opposite to how most 1cc's of Futari go. You need to get yourself up the screen and point blank enemies to shed gems (for score) and tbh, once you start doing that - the memorisation will just start to occur automatically once you start playing for score.

[Obscura]

. Also, you need to try and grab amber at close range more. You don't need to actually be pointblanking when you kill something, just rush in so when the amber starts to fall you get the green or blue aura bonus which adds a lot to the counter than simply grabbing normal amber.

Holy shit, I didn't know this at all, and this piece of info + actually getting the stage 5 extend for the first time (I just bombed as soon as it came on screen, since I don't know the proper way of doing it) + getting a really lucky run through the hell known as stage 3 (probably the first time I've only one-missed that stage) finally let me clear this. Crap score (244,719,356), but it's done. Finally.

Oh, and since I've cleared it, let me say: Futari BL still sucks.

(Also, WTF @ stage 5 score screen...)

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Holy shit, I didn't know this at all

That's a pretty basic scoring element, I'm surprised you didn't know how aura collecting works. The only change from 1.5 to BL is the blue aura bonus, which rewards even more close range collection than the green aura ones do, but even getting into the green aura range is way more valuable than non-aura amber.

This does confirm my suspicion that you just really don't know Futari all that well yet and thus don't appreciate it as much. Kinda like how I hated Maniac scoring until I started to play it more, still prefer Original/Ultra though.

Futari BL still sucks.

nope

[Nana]

Well it looks like this thread has pretty much touched all the bases, but I still want to say that Futari Maniac (1.5) is my favorite by far. It's not much more difficult than original because the bullets are so slow (half the time!), but it's very balanced and I love the scoring system. I still haven't played BL though.

@Obscura, would you mind sharing what MAME setup you're using? My 360 is dead so I can only play this at school now, it would be great to be able to play it at home again. Also your video convinced me to buy BL as well when I do get my 360 back up. Looks tight.

@Muchi Muchi Spork: You have the best name I've ever seen.

EDIT: wait, wait. I understand why Obscura's not enjoying Futari; you're supposed to be using Reco Abnormal. All of the other characters make no sense at all.

[Special World]

Holy shit, I didn't know this at all

That's a pretty basic scoring element, I'm surprised you didn't know how aura collecting works. The only change from 1.5 to BL is the blue aura bonus, which rewards even more close range collection than the green aura ones do, but even getting into the green aura range is way more valuable than non-aura amber.

This does confirm my suspicion that you just really don't know Futari all that well yet and thus don't appreciate it as much. Kinda like how I hated Maniac scoring until I started to play it more, still prefer Original/Ultra though.

Futari BL still sucks.

nope

Actually, the entire close-range gem bleeding aspect is Black Label only, IIRC. It's been a long time since I played 1.5 because I love Black Label so much.

And Obscura, you should really read about BL Original and Maniac in the strategy section. Black Label has excellent scoring modes, but they're a little more nuanced than DOJ's. Right now I'm remembering how I hated Deathsmiles until I learned how to score properly.

[Obscura]

@Obscura, would you mind sharing what MAME setup you're using? My 360 is dead so I can only play this at school now, it would be great to be able to play it at home again. Also your video convinced me to buy BL as well when I do get my 360 back up. Looks tight.

Use "slowpoke MAME" (search the forums for it), hit tab when in game, go to slider controls, set blitter rate to 61%.

EDIT: wait, wait. I understand why Obscura's not enjoying Futari; you're supposed to be using Reco Abnormal. All of the other characters make no sense at all.

The abnormal characters aren't in black label.

EDIT @ BareknuckleRoo: Couldn't you have at least used a good song to deliver that message? Like this one?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Actually, the entire close-range gem bleeding aspect is Black Label only, IIRC.

Oh right, pointblanking sheds gems per hit with the 'right' shot type, boosted to large if the stage counter is maxed. I keep forgetting about this cause I play Palm, and it seems harder to capitalize on this bonus with him (probably because the 'orb' options are always positioned around him, whereas Reco's beetle helpers also shed per hit and are easier to position?).

Couldn't you have at least used a good song to deliver that message?

If I ever care about the opinion of someone who thinks Futari sucks, I'll let you know. Might be sometime around the time the Sun turns into a red giant though.

[Obscura]

Am I understanding BL maniac's scoring correctly? That you want to hold shot on large enemies to jack up the multiplier and keep your chain, and then laser them at the last second to get the kill for double gems and, on bullet cancelers, the multiplier?

If so, WTF? Dumbest score system ever. "Don't use your powerful shot on bosses, and have fun flying through thick patterns at high speeds"... seriously, who came up with this shit? If you want a score system that mixes shot types, semi-chaining, and proximity, there's no reason in the world to pick this over Ketsui, where the system actually makes some sense.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Don't use your powerful shot on bosses

what

why do you complain about things you don't understand, why

It's a cash-in system. You crank the multiplier up to the max if possible, stop shooting for a second, then laser kill when the chain bar is empty to cash-in. Boss fights have a rapid drain so you don't need to worry so much about cashing in on them as you apparently can't build multiplier during the fights. It's all about stage cashing-in - shoot occasionally to keep the bar in the red and keep lasering things when the bar is red to get the max gems out of enemies, shooting more if you happen to let the bar drop. It's weird and plays very differently to Original, but it's fun when you get the hang of it.

Seriously, actually put more than a couple credits into it before complaining.

have fun flying through thick patterns at high speeds

yeah because that's not at all like Ketsui where you need to pointblank kill with the shot to get the max chip value, oh wait

are you drtrouserplank

[Obscura]

Boss fights have a rapid drain so you don't need to worry so much about cashing in on them as you apparently can't build multiplier during the fights. It's all about stage cashing-in - shoot occasionally to keep the bar in the red and keep lasering things when the bar is red to get the max gems out of enemies, shooting more if you happen to let the bar drop. It's weird and plays very differently to Original, but it's fun when you get the hang of it.

In BL at least, by using shot instead of laser, you can hold the multiplier fairly steady, and it's frequently better to cash in at the start of the next stage, rather than blowing it against a boss.

yeah because that's not at all like Ketsui where you need to pointblank kill with the shot to get the max chip value, oh wait

are you drtrouserplank

Yeah, because you don't need to be point blanking anyways in Ketsui just to survive, amirite?

Seriously, compare Futari's score system to that of a good Cave game (which basically means DDP, DOJ, and Ketsui):

Pachis: You have a shot that lets you move quickly and covers a large area, and you have a shot that does big concentrated damage, and lets you move precisely. How do you score better? Usually, by using shot on popcorn (especially in DOJ, where killing popcorn with the shot fills up the hyper meter faster than with laser) and laser on big guys, since laser holds your GP gauge steady.

Ketsui: Your weapons blow at long range because of lock-on time, but they're great up-close... and the score system rewards getting up close. The powerful lock-on scores better against big stuff (where you can apply your multiplier), and the spread-out shot does better against popcorn (where you want to build your multiplier, rather than apply it).

Hell, even Espgaluda, which is an awful game, gets this somewhat right. You have a button that slows down time. When is such a thing useful? When there's lots of bullets on screen, of course. When does it score for you? When there's lots of bullets on screen.

Now, look at Futari. In both modes, the shot you want to use has absolutely nothing to do with what it's actually good for. In one of the modes, you just go by what color a counter is. In the other, you go by how big a multiplier is. In neither case do you actually choose based on what you're actually shooting at or what kind of pattern you're trying to move through or whatever. The scoring system is just a dumb metagame tacked onto the game, which is lame even by the pathetic standards of modern Cave.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

In both modes, the shot you want to use has absolutely nothing to do with what it's actually good for.

I'm sure someone will explain to you someday what the concept of risk vs. reward is. The exact same concept applies to Ketsui where being at long range for certain enemies is safer but rewards fewer points.

sigh

[Despatche]

obscura is actually right about this. that's done because mushi is "generic" and it's hard to make something that "fits", so they go with purely arbitrary rules. go ahead and make fun of that, but at least the system works (unlike dfk or, iirc, ak). touhou also does "flying through thick patterns at high speeds", and pcb in particular does it very well.

omg i'm bad at posting forever

[trap15]

Yeah, I'm surprised about the quality of that post. Very well analyzed and said, Obscura.

[Acid_Rain]

One thing I'd like to add:

Futari and Futari BL original are a lot more approachable for newcomers to the genre because it's fairly easy to get the hang of the system. The DDPs are horribly unforgiving.
I haven't played the maniac/god/ultra modes that much…

@Despatche: Where do you see the problems with scoring systems of dfk/ ak?

[Special World]

Wow, I think I've actually been playing BL Maniac the wrong way, which is pretty disheartening as I liked my way more.

I thought the goal was to kill things with laser whenever your chain bar was in the red. I swear EOJ's guide used to recommend this, but now it's just "use C shot always to build your multiplier."

You still do kill with laser to some extent, as a lot of larger enemies are cancellable and give you larger gems when killing them with red-chain laser. But it's really not extensive. It seems like, on the first level at least, my method earned me just as much of a multiplier, but on bosses the constant C-shotting was clearly superior. Let me know if I'm incorrect about any of this.

I'm kinda bummed out about it, but Futari still has a great system. Loads better than DOJ, imo. Ketsui has a good, malleable scoring system, but DOJ's is just much too rigid.

ED: Also, I really would not say that intuitive interactions necessarily make a scoring system better. There are a ton of great shooters that use counter-intuitive scoring systems to great effect. Both camps have their merits.

[Obscura]

Wow, I think I've actually been playing BL Maniac the wrong way, which is pretty disheartening as I liked my way more.

I thought the goal was to kill things with laser whenever your chain bar was in the red. I swear EOJ's guide used to recommend this, but now it's just "use C shot always to build your multiplier."

I thought this was a 1.5 vs. BL thing?

[Special World]

Wow, I think I've actually been playing BL Maniac the wrong way, which is pretty disheartening as I liked my way more.

I thought the goal was to kill things with laser whenever your chain bar was in the red. I swear EOJ's guide used to recommend this, but now it's just "use C shot always to build your multiplier."

I thought this was a 1.5 vs. BL thing?

So basically I was playing Black Label the way you're supposed to play 1.5? If so, that really sucks, because I like everything else about Black Label way more -_- Maybe I'll have to re-evaluate my opinions. I did really like Black Label's freedom, though: Maniac 1.5 seems like an in-betweener of Dodonpachi's strict chaining and something much more open. But with this "new" understanding of Black Label, it feels like the laser's usefulness is totally reduced.

I guess I was probably reading EOJ's 1.5 and Black Label scoring at the same time and got them mixed up. I think my multiplier using A-shot in Black Label is comparable to when I use C-shot constantly, and the only difference is the multiplier on bosses. But you're right, I really don't like not being able to laser bosses. Up until this point I'd just plug away at them with laser, then toward the end of the segment I'd get my chain up to red with rapid and laser them for the kill. Those were better times, I feel.

ED: Well shit, now I'm all confused. According to EOJ's BL God strategy:

"-From 9999+ the counter will flash. At this point your counter will increase rapidly if you use the C shot, just like in Maniac mode. Also, when the counter is at this level it is actually more beneficial to kill enemies, except ones that produce a ton of gems, at close range with the C shot instead of pressing A when the chaining meter is flashing red."

Which implies that in Maniac it's typically better to kill them with red-chain A shot.

[Obscura]

I think what you want to do in BL maniac is weaken them with the C shot to build your multiplier, then quickly switch to A while holding C for the kill, then back to C. Sorta like how in Original, when you're fighting a boss, if you've got a green counter, you want to switch to shot at the last possible second; same theory, except it applies in reverse to everything.

[Special World]

I think what you want to do in BL maniac is weaken them with the C shot to build your multiplier, then quickly switch to A for the kill, then back to C. Sorta like how in Original, when you're fighting a boss, if you've got a green counter, you want to switch to shot at the last possible second; same theory, except it applies in reverse to everything.

Hm, I would hope this is the case, because it's essentially what I've been doing. Although that still sounds kinda finicky, since you want to know the exact millisecond to switch shots. Much preferable to this whole "hold C on every enemy that isn't cancellable" business, imo.

[Obscura]

The annoying thing about it is that you've got to use shot almost constantly, except for quick taps to laser- which is the exact opposite of what laser is actually useful for.

[Special World]

Yeah, I've just been holding laser for a few seconds whenever the chain bar is red, which is rhythmic and pretty satisfying. It felt sort of like a mini cash-in, in a way. You build up the chain bar and then you get to crush all the enemies and reap their gems. Sad to hear it isn't so.