American with UK Sega Saturn - Need Help

[NWrain]

Hello everyone,

I’m in the United States and was recently in a local game store where they had a Sega Saturn that was modded, region free, and had a 50/60hz switch in the back. I purchased it and found out later that it was a UK Sega Saturn, and they had given me a US power cord, an incompatible scart connector, and a composite cable. The store won’t help me claiming it is my fault and will not exchange cables, offer refund, or store credit.

I hooked it up to my Sony 46” HX729, used the US power cord, and composite cable. I put in a US copy Panzer Dragoon and found that the game was displaying in black and white. The back of the Saturn says that it needs 220V-240V, but it was playing with a 115V power cord. Does this mean that the PSU was modified as well?

I would appreciate any help getting this system up and running.

[cyborc]

they might've taken out the 240v PSU and swapped in a 120v one. I did this with my NTSC-J 240v saturn. As for the black and white thing, unfortunately, you probably won't get color video unless you have a pal compatible tv or use the RGB scart connection, in which case you would need some way to convert the rgb to hdmi or component.

[NWrain]

I opened up my Sega Saturn and looked at the power supply. It looks exactly like a short 240V Sega Saturn power supply that I saw here.

http://gamedoctorhk.com/index.php?main_ ... cts_id=982

I ordered a UK power plug, and step up transformer. Hopefully, plugging it in the 120v wall didn't damage the system.

However, now I need someway to convert a SCART RGB signal into something that a US TV can interpret. I have been looking at some reviews of video processors.

http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/

There are so many options I don't know where to start.

[Fudoh]

However, now I need someway to convert a SCART RGB signal into something that a US TV can interpret

Your Sony TV should be able to display 15khz 240p through component, so just have a look at Scart RGB to component converters.

[NWrain]

I did some research. Most PS1 games are 240P, correct? I borrowed my roommates PS2 and used it with my TV component input. I tested Valkyrie Profile, and Xenogears, and both displayed fine on the TV.

The CSY-2100 Scart to YUV seems to be a popular choice. It also feels like people refer to the Kramer FC-14 as the best among the converters. However, the Kramer website refers to it as both a converter and a transcoder. Is there an important distinction? Would the Kramer FC-14 give significantly better picture quality?

[Fudoh]

The Kramer is a bit better, but you require additional custom cabling and a sync cleaner ahead of it. I would go with one of the generic CSY-2100 clones found on eBay for around $50.

[NWrain]

I'll go with the cheaper alternative for now, but for future reference is the Synch Strike is a good example of a synch cleaner?

Would I need to chain it, Sega Saturn -> Scart ->Synch Strike -> FC-14 -> BNC to RCA -> TV?

[Fudoh]

yes, that's correct.

[NWrain]

Thank you everyone for your help. Once I get things working, I might think about adding a scaler.

edit: I forgot one thing. Can a SLG3000 be added between the Synch Strike and FC-14? Thank you.

[Fudoh]

No, the SLG3000 is for VGA (31khz) signals only, while we were talking RGBs (15khz) signals. The FC-14 supports VGA as well, so you could do Dreamcast -> SLG -> FC14 -> TV via component.

[BuckoA51]

Something in the back of my mind seems to tell me I had issues running my PAL Saturn at 60hz with my XRGB3 + DVDO combo, the old vertical sync being too far out of spec issue, plus the PAL console doesn't have raw sync output which even the XRGB Mini seems to need in some instances with the Saturn. I'd go back and raise hell with the store.

[NWrain]

Oh my. I don't have a scaler yet. This has turned into a nightmare.

I tried to return it, but I was told it was sold as is. I don't quite understand that because they gave me a SCART cable that doesn't fit the Sega Saturn, and a US power cable that should not be used with the system. I asked to exchange the incorrect cables but they refused. They immediately offered to sell me more things without even taking care of the problems of the first system they sold me. That left a bitter taste in my mouth.

Is there any way to fix the synch issue? Would a synch cleaner help? Does an American or Japanese unit not have that problem?

[BuckoA51]

the vertical sync being too far out of spec issue, if you encountered that issue (and it's definitely an if) you would see stuttery scrolling and/or a horizontal white line cutting across the screen. The only way you could fix that is by removing the PAL timing crystal and soldering in an NTSC one. I'm sure I've seen one of my Saturn's do this but I can't remember the circumstances.

Lack of raw sync, you may never need raw sync, the XRGB3 needs it but most people are going for the Mini these days, which /may/ need it with the Saturn but probably not.

Do you have trading standards or anything like that over there you can complain to?

[NWrain]

I won't know if I am experiencing that issue until I get all the equipment to safely plug the Saturn in.

I don't own a video processor yet, but if I do I think I will go with the Silicon Optix Image Anyplace. It seems to be the most reasonably priced processor that is available to me at the moment.

I can file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, but that won't get me my money back. I think the most I can do is write a Yelp or Google review. I am never going back to that store ever again.

[BuckoA51]

The Image Anyplace is reasonably priced and available to you? Your luck must be turning round those things are rare, I'd snap it up right away, its the only processor in existance that can rotate the image, as far as I know.

[NWrain]

Maybe it's not reasonably priced. There is a person selling a few on the US Ebay website for $300. It is less expensive than the DVDO Edge, DVDO VP30, XRGB Mini video processors that I have seen available. Since I have purchased a RGB to Component converter I should be able to get connectivity.

[Fudoh]

There are some SOIA versions around that have old FW versions on them. Rotation might not be available on the early ones. Also pay attention to any SOIA units with a blue front. Those are downsized units and might not be compatible with later (and proper) SOIA firmwares.

[NWrain]

I was able to get the power cord, step up converter and what I believe is a CSY-2100 clone. The Saturn now powers on and plays games in color now. I don't think I am having any synch issues.

However, the image shudders, or bobs a bit. Is this a de-interlacing issue? The picture quality could be better. I play games using the TV Game mode that is supposed to have the least amount of processing.

[Fudoh]

your TV does not recognize a 240p signal. It's treated as 480i and is deinterlaced and heavily processed. A direct connection to a LCD TV like yours in only a patch-job to get a picture at all.

[NWrain]

At the very least I am glad that the system works and is functional. I'm going to move on from this converter to a FC-14 and Silicon Optix Image Anyplace. I will let everyone know how it turns out.

[NWrain]

With some advice from Fudoh I was able to assemble the system. I first ran the CSY clone into the Silicon Optix scaler, but results were mediocre. Then I ran the Sync Strike, and Kramer FC-14 combination at SXGA resolution and at 720P. I am running a DVI to HDMI cable from the Silicon Optix until I get more VGA cables. Results were much better than the CSY clone, but I get a little noise and occasional "twitches" around letters in games. I am using a custom cable that I bought from ebay rather than the official Sega cable. I hope that isn't causing a problem.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200781488198?ss ... 1439.l2649

Here are some pictures I took of the upscaled games. I couldn't get a picture of the noise or twitch issue that I mentioned previously.

[Fudoh]

but I get a little noise and occasional "twitches" around letters in games

the "twitches" are caused by the diagonal interpolation (DCDi) from the Faroudja processor. I can also see this in your first screenshot, where the diagonal edges are heavily smoothed out. If I remember correct you can disable this on the SOIA. Maybe by switching the SD Deinterlacing mode. Give it a try.

[NWrain]

The shuddering twitches are quite annoying. I looked through the menu and looked at de-interlacing options. The choices I have are Auto, Pull Down, Static Mesh, and V/T Deinterlace.

After playing a few shmups, I can definitely feel lag using the HDMI input. I hope that the VGA input is a better option.

I took this picture with the hope that it may help somehow.

[Fudoh]

Auto, Pull Down, Static Mesh, and V/T Deinterlace.

just go through these options. One should disable the diagonal interpolation, so your graphics will get blockier and this will also kill the twitches.

After playing a few shmups, I can definitely feel lag using the HDMI input. I hope that the VGA input is a better option.

that solely depends on your TV. I don't think that the Sony you're using has different lag behaviour using VGA compared to HDMI (both in scene mode GAME of course). Your Sony has a lag of about 2 frames and so does the SOIA. So you end up with a 4-frame delay. That's especially noticeable once you switch to it from another setup, but I would give it a few days to see if you can't easily adjust.

[NWrain]

I went through the options, and I don't see any change. Choosing static mesh makes the image bob. I wonder if my TV is trying to additional processing and causing problems?

Update:Choosing V/T de-interlance fixed the "twitching" issue. The 3:2 (2:2) Pull down option was causing it.

I played some shmups through the SOIA, and then from the Kramer FC-14 to my TV with BNC to RCA cables. The transcoder solution was definitely more responsive. I earned a higher score and survived for much longer. When I was using the transcoder to my TV I came across an option labeled "i/p conversion preference". When I set it to "quality", the image no longer bobs, but introduces artifacts with certain sprites. When set to "speed" I get 480i bobbing. Another added benefit to using just the FC-14 is that I also get sound.



The only image related issue that I am left with is difficult to explain. It is not screen tearing, and it isn't noise. Small rectangular portions of the image lose detail and shudder. This happens with the transcoder only solution, SOIA, and CSY clone combinations. The problem occurs on my Sony HX729, and my NEC LCD2490WUXI computer monitor. I think it is a PAL related issue, but I don't have a NTSC scart solution to compare it to. edit: The problems are not shown in the pictures I have taken. It wont show up in pictures.


Another update. FC-14 -> SOIA -> VGA -> SLG 3000. The colors on the VGA input were really muted, but after some adjustment, I got them to be a bit more vibrant. I also have to say that scan-lines are quite nice. The SOIA is a fantastic scaler. If I had a TV that virtually had no lag, I would stick with this solution.



I think that what I will do is start again with a NTSC American, or Japanese console, and see what happens with the picture quality.

[NWrain]

Today was quite interesting. I found a audio/visual rental company that was willing to part with their Extron Andora line doubler. They couldn't remember the last time it was ever used.

The RGBs input on the Andora is a male D-sub 9 pin connector. The way I intend to hook it up is like this, Scart->Sync Strike->Extron Andora->SLG3000->TV. How do I connect the VGA output on the Sync Strike to the male D-sub 9 pin connector on the Extron Andora? Thanks.


Edit: Added some pictures

[Fudoh]

Nice find! The Andora's DSub9 input has likely the same pinout the DSub9 connector on other older Extron units, e.g. Page 2-11 here:

http://media.extron.com/download/files/ ... manual.pdf

How much did pay for the Andora ?
Looking forward to your verdict! You might run into some combing effects witht he Andora, if you don't full scanlines.

[NWrain]

I paid $150. That is bit more than what others have paid, but considering how convenient it was to get, I don't mind so much.








In the third picture picture, it shows a 4 BNC to 9 pin connector, and is labeled as TARGA. Does TARGA refer to this? I'm curious what it was used for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truevision_TGA

According to the second image, Extron made this cable with the part#26-362-01. It is so old it is not even listed on the Extron website anymore.

According to the Extron Manual for the RGB202rxi it refers to a LBC (Laptop Breakout Cable). I'm quite sure this is it. It is male VGA HD15 (14 pins connected) to female DB9. It is made by Extron so it may work. I wonder if I can find one.

http://www.extron.com/product/product.a ... type=3&s=4

Will the SLG3000 eliminate the combing artifacts? That is what I understood from your website.

edit: Do you know of other ways to solve combing issues?

[Fudoh]

Will the SLG3000 eliminate the combing artifacts? That is what I understood from your website.

The Andora does not understand 240p - just like your TV, so it applies weaving to the signal. Just give it a try using composite or s-video until you got the right cable. The combing won't be visible if you use full intensity on the scanlines.

[NWrain]

I hooked up a NTSC SNES with composite to the Andora and then VGA to the TV. I get an unstable pink image that blinks on and off. Is this a sync issue?

Edit: I found out later that it was because of the left and right horizontal shift adjustment knob. If you move the picture too far left or right you will get a unstable picture and eventually get a black screen. Keep it in the middle and you will have no problems.