Total Carnage released for Jaguar!

Dice · Post by **Dice** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:58 pm

Any Jag fans better head on over to AtariAge and check out the latest news : http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.ph ... opic=76702

I've seen a gameplay video of this, it looks pretty good. I know its cheaper on MAT2, but it's still cool to see this come out on Jaguar.

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:57 pm

awesome game, shitty console.. wel atleast now all you unlucky owners have 1 good game for it (providing the ports any good)..

PFG 9000 · Post by **PFG 9000** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:13 pm

sven666 wrote:awesome game, shitty console.. wel atleast now all you unlucky owners have 1 good game for it (providing the ports any good)..

Aww, come on now, that's a bit harsh. Honestly, how many Jag games have you played? With a statement like that, I suspect it would be very, very few.

Everybody knows about Tempest 2000 and Alien Vs. Predator, but so few people talk about the awesome ports of Doom and Wolfenstein 3D (which is undeniably the best version out there including the original, unless you count Return to Castle Wolfenstein). What about Raiden? Rayman? Iron Soldier/Iron Soldier 2? Syndicate? Vid Grid? Blue Lightning? NBA Jam TE?

Well, what do I know? I'm just a fanboy.

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:22 pm

Also, I would say that Defender 2000 and Protector are really good for the Jag. I've had my Jaguar for years and I can honestly say over the last 5 years it has gotten more use than my SNES or NES.

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:48 pm

i have actually played quite a few, AvP, raiden, tempest, wolfenstein are the ones that spring to mind spontaneously.

wolfenstein is ok, the rest are not, the raiden port is the worst port ive everplayed!!

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:56 pm

PFG 9000 wrote:What about Raiden? Rayman? Iron Soldier/Iron Soldier 2? Syndicate? Vid Grid? Blue Lightning? NBA Jam TE?

What about Kasumi Ninja? Fight for Life? Dragon? Ultra Vortek? Double Dragon? Checkered Flag? Club Drive? For any good game on the Jaguar, there was an awful one.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:00 am

Ganelon wrote:For any good game on the Jaguar, there was an awful one.

In my opinion, you could likely say the same for most any system that's ever existed...not like I can comment specifically on the Jaguar though, since I've very seldom played one.

Dice · Post by **Dice** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:17 am

Ganelon wrote:
PFG 9000 wrote:What about Raiden? Rayman? Iron Soldier/Iron Soldier 2? Syndicate? Vid Grid? Blue Lightning? NBA Jam TE?
What about Kasumi Ninja? Fight for Life? Dragon? Ultra Vortek? Double Dragon? Checkered Flag? Club Drive? For any good game on the Jaguar, there was an awful one.

So, because of the bad games on a system, you can't enjoy the good ones? I don't understand.

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:37 am

For every good game there was a bad game? Isn't this inverse true of ALL things in life? I have learned so much over the years just by the professors of shumps.com. Awesome.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:59 am

Yes, everything has yin and yang. That wasn't my point. I guess I should've said "OK" rather than good. The Jaguar has crap and it has OK games. Where are the exclusive standout hits? You've got Alien vs. Predator for FPS fans and, and, what...?

I've noticed that systems are defined by software, specifically overall quality, quantity, and standout exclusives (games that really define the system's experience and are also synonymous to them, such as DKC and the SNES, Aladdin and the SG, Nights and the SS, and MGS and the PS).

The Jaguar has none of these. My point wasn't that there weren't decent games on the Jaguar but rather that the Jaguar is not a good console despite its good games, of which I admittedly haven't played all of them. At least the Supergrafx has exclusive games. The Jaguar offers some decent ports but has nothing to define its image except perhaps the aforementioned AVP. Thus, it has a well-deserved reputation of being a weak console despite the potential power that it could've supported.

I didn't want to be so critically blunt but I guess skirting near the point doesn't make for easy understanding.

crithit5000 · Post by **crithit5000** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:25 am

All I want to know is if General Ahkboob still has his hilarious non-English screaming...

LoneSage · Post by **LoneSage** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:35 am

Wasn't Tempest 2000 or something the reason to own a Jaguar? Maybe it was the 3D0, I always get those two mixed up.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:29 am

Yeah, for not-really-shooter fans, the buzz at the time was that Tempest 2000 was the reason to own a Jaguar and Shockwave was the reason to own a 3DO. I don't agree with either but to each his/her own.

Dice · Post by **Dice** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:30 am

Ganelon wrote:Yes, everything has yin and yang. That wasn't my point. I guess I should've said "OK" rather than good. The Jaguar has crap and it has OK games. Where are the exclusive standout hits? You've got Alien vs. Predator for FPS fans and, and, what...?

I've noticed that systems are defined by software, specifically overall quality, quantity, and standout exclusives (games that really define the system's experience and are also synonymous to them, such as DKC and the SNES, Aladdin and the SG, Nights and the SS, and MGS and the PS).

The Jaguar has none of these. My point wasn't that there weren't decent games on the Jaguar but rather that the Jaguar is not a good console despite its good games, of which I admittedly haven't played all of them. At least the Supergrafx has exclusive games. The Jaguar offers some decent ports but has nothing to define its image except perhaps the aforementioned AVP. Thus, it has a well-deserved reputation of being a weak console despite the potential power that it could've supported.

I didn't want to be so critically blunt but I guess skirting near the point doesn't make for easy understanding.

What does pointing out that the Jaguar has bad games and few exclusives, have to do with anything really? It's not like the system is in the middle of a system war right now. I mean, are you trying to convince people to go 3DO instead of Jag? Is it 1994 or am I dreaming? The Jaguar is just another console with games that are worth owning, much like every other console in gaming history (except maybe game.com).You haven't said anything here that hasn't been repeated ad-nauseum a million times.

As for exclusives NOW, thats not really a fair look at things as the PSX and Saturn had time to actually port Jaguar games themselves. Back then games like Tempest 2000, Iron Soldier, AvP, and Rayman (which was originally developed as a Jaguar exclusive) were the games that your saying the Jag 'doesn't have' as console icons. Not to mention real exclusives that are good also, like Defender 2000, and Breakout 2000, Battlemorph, Skyhammer and Brutal Sports Football.

No ones going to say that the Jaguar is the greatest console with the best games of all time, but damn if a machine has 1 good classic, then it's worth owning the system. Still don't know what this has to do with Total Carnage though.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:01 am

Dice wrote:You haven't said anything here that hasn't been repeated ad-nauseum a million times.

As for exclusives NOW, thats not really a fair look at things as the PSX and Saturn had time to actually port Jaguar games themselves. Back then games like Tempest 2000, Iron Soldier, AvP, and Rayman (which was originally developed as a Jaguar exclusive) were the games that your saying the Jag 'doesn't have' as console icons. Not to mention real exclusives that are good also, like Defender 2000, and Breakout 2000, Battlemorph, Skyhammer and Brutal Sports Football.

No ones going to say that the Jaguar is the greatest console with the best games of all time, but damn if a machine has 1 good classic, then it's worth owning the system. Still don't know what this has to do with Total Carnage though.

I don't agree with you. I was responding to a point, not making an original point myself. I'm only viewing retrospectively; however, isn't that the only way we can judge how good a console was?

And yes, if you own a console for 1 game, all the more power to you. I couldn't care less. This discussion indeed has no bearing on your subject. I apologize although it's a bit biased of you to ignore off-topic praise of the Jaguar...

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:11 am

Raiden on the Jag is hideous. Even the humble PCE hucard Raiden looks and moves better than that. It's like the Jag runs at 10 FPS. Not slow, but choppy. Only the SNES version is below that.

zaphod · Post by **zaphod** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:35 am

Tempest 2000 really is that good. That is STILl the reason to own a jaguar. I have one of those, and tempest 2000 is my only cart for the thing (laugh)

it did have a lot of craptastic games, though.

D · Post by D » Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:41 am

Total Carnage looks like total .........
Let me rephrase that it's mayor mayhem.

A Mercs clone without TATE.

Why this game? of all games they could've made.
My guess is that the game was allready finished a long time ago but was never released. And probably for good reasons.

Of all games why not release a bomberman game os romething like that or tetris even (probably allready on the Jag)

I do love to read threads about these 'failed' systems.

PFG 9000 · Post by **PFG 9000** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:37 pm

Ganelon wrote:What about Kasumi Ninja? Fight for Life? Dragon? Ultra Vortek? Double Dragon? Checkered Flag? Club Drive? For any good game on the Jaguar, there was an awful one.

My post was in reply to Sven666, who was stating indirectly that this would be the first good game for the console. I was listing many of the other good games for the Jag. Are those games outstanding games, along the lines of Castlevania: SotN and Super Metroid? Not most of them, no...but that was never the point. Sven666 mentioned "good games," so I proceeded to list the other good games for the system. Of course there's plenty of crap, as there was for the SNES, Genesis, PSX, and really any console you could possibly name. You say that this was a response to a point that had been made, but your response had nothing to do with what we were talking about.

Ganelon wrote:Yes, everything has yin and yang. That wasn't my point. I guess I should've said "OK" rather than good. The Jaguar has crap and it has OK games. Where are the exclusive standout hits? You've got Alien vs. Predator for FPS fans and, and, what...?

I've noticed that systems are defined by software, specifically overall quality, quantity, and standout exclusives (games that really define the system's experience and are also synonymous to them, such as DKC and the SNES, Aladdin and the SG, Nights and the SS, and MGS and the PS).

The Jaguar has none of these. My point wasn't that there weren't decent games on the Jaguar but rather that the Jaguar is not a good console despite its good games, of which I admittedly haven't played all of them. At least the Supergrafx has exclusive games. The Jaguar offers some decent ports but has nothing to define its image except perhaps the aforementioned AVP. Thus, it has a well-deserved reputation of being a weak console despite the potential power that it could've supported./quote]

Those games you mentioned are hardly defining of each system's highpoints, IMO. DKC for the SNES was a graphically pretty game, but the gameplay was horribly stale. This improve a bit with the sequel, but it was still nothing we hadn't seen on the NES. Aladdin on the Genesis is similar - its graphics are nice, but the overdone animation ruins the gameplay, along with games like the Lion King and Pitfall: The Mayan Adventure. Precision movement is difficult because every motion is overly animated. I can't say much about Nights and MGS because I've played very little of them (though MGS is on my list). But shouldn't a system be defined by the highlights of its library? Why name DKC as the defining game for the SNES when there are so many others that are of similar calibre (or higher, depending on personal opinion)?

Anyway, it's been mentioned already that there were a number of standout hits on the Jag that were eventually ported to other systems. Do you write off Contra III, Final Fantasy VI, and LoZ: a Link to the Past as some of the best reasons to own an SNES because they're available in a portable and faithful format on the GBA? No (well, at least I don't), because that is the system they were originally designed for. Just like Tempest 2000, Rayman, Iron Soldier, and AvP.

PFG 9000 · Post by **PFG 9000** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:38 pm

Specineff wrote:Raiden on the Jag is hideous. Even the humble PCE hucard Raiden looks and moves better than that. It's like the Jag runs at 10 FPS. Not slow, but choppy. Only the SNES version is below that.

I assume you're referring to the actual game, and not an emulated experience? I agree that Raiden Jag is slow, but it's very smooth and quite enjoyable, IMO. 10 FPS is a horrible exaggeration, and you know it.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:21 pm

I specifically listed games in 2 genres (fighters and racing) to highlight the genre-encompassing deficiencies of the system, even a focal genre that was heavily emphasized from Fight for Life near the start to the long-awaited but horribly disappointing Kasumi Ninja. Double Dragon and Dragon are also examples of shitty ports that somehow came out worse than their 16-bit counterparts. But since you were just highlighting some "good" games, then my bad, that did tangent off from what you guys were talking about.

As for the standout hits, regardless of what you or I think, the majority has that impression, shown through sales and critique. To be honest, I liked Lion King and Aladdin's heavy animation since the gameplay is also quite solid and refreshing. In fact, one of my favorite sidescrollers from the early 90's is still Prince of Persia, oddly controlled but very fluid once you get used to it. Pitfall (16-bit version) wouldn't fit because it never gained that popularity. As for your comment on DKC, indeed, there are many games on the SNES that are often thought of by many as being of equal or higher caliber to DKC; those were just example analogies I made just in case somebody didn't understand what I was talking about.

As for the ports you mentioned, no, I wouldn't write those games off because it was years and years and another system generation (or 2) before those games were ported. When the port comes after excess time and/or a system generation leap, the connection between the ported game and the new console diminishes. For example, Grandia is still remembered as the great SS RPG even though it was eventually ported to the PS a couple of years later.

PS Tempest 2000 was exclusive to the Jaguar for, what, 2 years? That's why it draws a link to the Jaguar and helps boost the system's reputation even though it was eventually ported to the SS and PC. Rayman on the other hand very quickly spread to the PC, PS, and SS. It's not really even associated with the Jaguar anymore except among hardcore gamers. It didn't help that the other systems' ports were all fine unlike many of the Jaguar's own ports.

There's no exact cut-off date from when a game with later ports is symbolically attached solely to the original system; the gaming populace at large seems to decide that through polls, hindsight reviews, and other forms of expression. Yes, they might not know anything worth shit but it's just a natural human interaction in regards to the relationship between systems and their games.

Anyway, this post is heavily unrelated to the main topic but consider it a free bump. I'm not sure how this port contributes to the Jaguar's library, esp. going for $90 when MAT2 with plenty of other games can be found for $10, but at least it's another addition.

PFG 9000 · Post by **PFG 9000** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:05 pm

Eh, I'm an Atari fanboy...take my words with a grain of salt.

*edited for spelling*

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:21 pm

Hey, that's cool. It's good to stand up for things you like. You seem pretty fair about it too so no prob there.

Anyway, another competitor like Atari would've always help spur better games to the market.

Dice · Post by **Dice** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:38 pm

I'm buying TC for the Jaguar. It's a great game, I've seen the gameplay video thats out there, its very faithful to the arcade and much better than the SNES version...and yes it has the funny non-english Akhboob

Yeah, it does seem stupid to buy this for $90 when its on MAT2...which I own as well, but the Atari fanbase in general is unique in that the fans themselves go to all this trouble to finish up lost prototypes, or create their own homebrews, and then get full color boxes, manuals and cart labels produced so that everyone else can enjoy the games, albeit for a large fee. I kinda feel like I'm rewarding Songbirds hard work and dedication, I mean read that thread I posted, the guy deconstructed the code without source and finished coding the game himself for a year. He's getting rewarded for bringing a great game to the Jaguar, which all of us agree the system needs more of, and I'm getting to enjoy TC as a novelty on the Jag...pretty cool to me.

D wrote:

Why this game? of all games they could've made.
My guess is that the game was allready finished a long time ago but was never released. And probably for good reasons.

Well, the Jaguar had a lifespan of 2-3 years, so there are definitely prototypes out there that were just plain unfinished, which is what Total Carnage was, but Songbird finished up the coding, and got the rights from Midway to publish the game for the Jaguar. There's nothing wrong with the game, simply the Jaguar and Atari went down before this game was completed in 1996.

jp · Post by jp » Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:58 pm

What made the Jaguar awesome:
Iron Soldier
Iron Soldier II
Hover Tank (at least, IMO)
I-War (once again, mostly to me)
Tempest 2000
Attack of the Mutant Penguins
Doom
Wolfenstein 3D
Alien vs. Predator
Battlesphere/Battlesphere Gold

And thats all I got right now, but dammit, I loved those games way back when.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:55 pm

PFG 9000 wrote:
Specineff wrote:Raiden on the Jag is hideous. Even the humble PCE hucard Raiden looks and moves better than that. It's like the Jag runs at 10 FPS. Not slow, but choppy. Only the SNES version is below that.
I assume you're referring to the actual game, and not an emulated experience? I agree that Raiden Jag is slow, but it's very smooth and quite enjoyable, IMO. 10 FPS is a horrible exaggeration, and you know it.

Well, that's what it looked to me when we played it at Greg's place. Probably just a shoddy port, since Tempest 2000 ran at a very smooth frame rate and the machine is capable of more than the choppy framerate of Raiden. Still, the PCE and PCECD versions PWN it big time.

Samudra · Post by **Samudra** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:50 pm

PFG 9000 wrote:Do you write off Contra III, Final Fantasy VI, and LoZ: a Link to the Past as some of the best reasons to own an SNES because they're available in a portable and faithful format on the GBA? No (well, at least I don't), because that is the system they were originally designed for. Just like Tempest 2000, Rayman, Iron Soldier, and AvP.

Rayman was designed for the Jaguar and not for the PC?

Dice · Post by **Dice** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:09 pm

Samudra wrote:
PFG 9000 wrote:Do you write off Contra III, Final Fantasy VI, and LoZ: a Link to the Past as some of the best reasons to own an SNES because they're available in a portable and faithful format on the GBA? No (well, at least I don't), because that is the system they were originally designed for. Just like Tempest 2000, Rayman, Iron Soldier, and AvP.

Rayman was designed for the Jaguar and not for the PC?

Thats correct. The PC version was the last version I think. During development, UbiSoft saw the potential of the newer 32-bit systems and quickly started developing Rayman for the PSX and the Saturn. It would have been really good for the Jaguar if Rayman would have stayed an exclusive, but Ubisoft definitely saw where the $$$$ was at.

Dice · Post by **Dice** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:21 pm

Specineff wrote:
PFG 9000 wrote:
Specineff wrote:Raiden on the Jag is hideous. Even the humble PCE hucard Raiden looks and moves better than that. It's like the Jag runs at 10 FPS. Not slow, but choppy. Only the SNES version is below that.
I assume you're referring to the actual game, and not an emulated experience? I agree that Raiden Jag is slow, but it's very smooth and quite enjoyable, IMO. 10 FPS is a horrible exaggeration, and you know it.
Well, that's what it looked to me when we played it at Greg's place. Probably just a shoddy port, since Tempest 2000 ran at a very smooth frame rate and the machine is capable of more than the choppy framerate of Raiden. Still, the PCE and PCECD versions PWN it big time.

I play Jag Raiden quite a bit, and honestly don't know where you get this choppy animation thing. It's one of the best ports out there next to Raiden Project. The graphics are actually enhanced over the arcade version in one particular area, and the soundtrack was remixed and spectacular. The ship does move slower than it should, but other than that the game runs fine without a lick of slowdown, or without any dips in FPS.

I don't know...I think you should give it another chance

Samudra · Post by **Samudra** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:35 pm

Dice wrote:
Samudra wrote:
PFG 9000 wrote:Do you write off Contra III, Final Fantasy VI, and LoZ: a Link to the Past as some of the best reasons to own an SNES because they're available in a portable and faithful format on the GBA? No (well, at least I don't), because that is the system they were originally designed for. Just like Tempest 2000, Rayman, Iron Soldier, and AvP.

Rayman was designed for the Jaguar and not for the PC?
Thats correct. The PC version was the last version I think. During development, UbiSoft saw the potential of the newer 32-bit systems and quickly started developing Rayman for the PSX and the Saturn. It would have been really good for the Jaguar if Rayman would have stayed an exclusive, but Ubisoft definitely saw where the $$$$ was at.

Wow, I never knew. Now I too have a reason to play on a Jaguar.