XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Fudoh]

Your monitor might accept all these timings, but it's very, very unlikely that all refresh rates are natively supported. So you're probably looking at a framerate conversion for most input timings.

But you're right, Micomsoft should add an automatic 1:1 refresh rate option. DVD and BD players can do it as well. Micomsoft's problem are the rather long resync times after a refresh rate switch and with a system switching from PAL to NTSC at boot, the Mini still tends to lose sync completely. They have to fix this first or many users will end up with black screens, if the input and the output have to resync...

[pyrotek85]

Your monitor might accept all these timings, but it's very, very unlikely that all refresh rates are natively supported. So you're probably looking at a framerate conversion for most input timings.

But you're right, Micomsoft should add an automatic 1:1 refresh rate option. DVD and BD players can do it as well. Micomsoft's problem are the rather long resync times after a refresh rate switch and with a system switching from PAL to NTSC at boot, the Mini still tends to lose sync completely. They have to fix this first or many users will end up with black screens, if the input and the output have to resync...

Is this the same thing as when it goes black during a resolution change, like 240p -> 480i or whatever? I'm hopeful it's something they can fix and not a hardware limitation. Hasn't been game breaking for me yet but it can be annoying.

[Joelepain]

Your monitor might accept all these timings, but it's very, very unlikely that all refresh rates are natively supported. So you're probably looking at a framerate conversion for most input timings.

When I was writing my previous message, I was exactly thinking of that. Do you know a program that shows a scrolling patern to test this ?

But anyways the conclusion is the same, you have cheap pc screens with conversion VS expensive TVs with black screen or "unsupported" message.... "Choose your destiny !!!"

[Fudoh]

Do you know a program that shows a scrolling patern to test this ?

you can use any emu to test. Take Nestopia with Super Mario Bros for example. Just set the emu to adjust speed and refresh rate via V-Sync to the monitor's refresh and you'll see if it's smooth or not.

[Joelepain]

And by the way, a little off topic but...
I think manufacturers should drop all theses CRT legacy things, like the number of lines for the resolutions or the fixed refresh rate.
LCD don't need to be refreshed. They should have introduced a new sync mode in video standards were the GPU once have finished to generate its frame, trigger the screen and send its picture, at any moments. The only restriction should be the screen tells the gpu its maximum refresh rate so the gpu never go faster than this.
It could resolve all these stutering and tearing problems. When I see all people worshipping this stupid new nvidia feature "Adaptative V-Sync", i'm just thinking omg 15 years ago we were just having triple buffering and that was so simple...

[Seraphic]

Something seems definitely wrong with my Mini. The picture has so much aliasing in it.
The problem seemed to show up after I had problems updating. Is the unit itself damage or could it just be the cable?

[Fudoh]

grab a digicam, post a picture - don't let us speculate about things we don't see.

[Seraphic]

Maybe it is just my display... as it doesn't look as bad in the photos.
But sharpness is set to 0 on display and video processors so I don't know.
Here is an Image Pack of a bunch of images.

[Fudoh]

the pictures look perfectly fine to me. Maybe you could point out anything specific in those pics that you don't like ?

You use 1080p output and GAME scaling preset ? On 240p inputs like this you can bump up the sharpness to 1. Instead you can decrease the horizontal scaling setting to 5 for a little more precise scaling. You might also see different scaling depending on the AR you chose (Smart x2, Standard, Normal2).

[jdubs]

Hey guys, anyone know what the purpose of the two ground points is on the Mini's input?:

http://www.gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id= ... amemeister

I finally got some stuff to make cables (at least for my Genesis 2) and I am curious if I have to connect the ground from the console side to both or if one is sufficient.

-Jim

Guys, any thoughts on this? I have to imagine some (most?) folks are diy'ing cables for this thing.

Thanks!
Jim

[Fudoh]

Why don't you simply connect the dedicated ground pin of your Genesis to the dedicated (inner) ground pin of the Mini and make sure the cable's shielding connects both the Genesis' outer ring to the Mini's outer ring....

[fAbZ]

Hello all,

I would like to connect a French PAL PS2 to a Pc monitor (Eizo Foris FS2332).
The XRGB-Mini seems to be good on paper, does it support 50Hertz correctly ? my PS2 outpout seems to be most 576i.
Can we connect another playstation on it ? (PAL PSone) in order to leave alwais plug-in.

Thanks for your help in advance !

[Joelepain]

Hello fAbZ,

I can't tell you specificaly for a PAL PS2, but I have a french n64 and a french Gamecube.
Most n64 games output 288p and some 576i. All gamecube games output 576i if you don't activate the 60hz mode.
I tested the n64 through s-video and SCART RGB, and I tested the GC through SCART RGB and Component. I didn't test composite at all.
With the latest firmware, the xrgb supports really well 50hz. You can choose the output framerate : if you set to 60hz it will convert 50hz to 60hz but you'll have stuttering scrollings. If you choose 50hz output you won't have stuttering but your pc monitor have to support this framerate. The only way to know this is to test a 50hz framerate in your nvidia or ati control pannel.

Warning: as fudoh told me, if your pc monitor supports 50hz, this doesn't mean it will not convert internally 50hz to 60hz, with stuttering side effect. But at least it will show a picture

[Fudoh]

With a modern monitor like Eizo Foris I would expect true 50Hz support through HDMI.

[BuckoA51]

I've used the mini quite a bit with 576i from the Amiga and it's performed well. Interlace is always the most difficult type of signal to process after all. The biggest issue is changing between 288p and 576i is very slow, changing from 576i to 480p (eg via GSM mode changer or other similar tool) can cause the picture to blank entirely until you adjust H_POS.

[fAbZ]

many thanks for your advices, it confirm my choice for it. One test of my monitor report a support of 50Hz is quite well so, in order to connect a PAL ps2 and PSone, i have to use a modded scart (JAP) to connecting to the XRGB ? How do you connect many console at your XRGB ? i try to use a PS2 and PSone ...

Thanks for your help

[Fudoh]

PS2 via component and PS1 via RGBs, so no problem there.

On earlier FWs PSOne via RGB gave some sync troubles. Has this been fixed by now ?

[Joelepain]

With a modern monitor like Eizo Foris I would expect true 50Hz support through HDMI.

Yes you warned me about exotic refresh rates. If I connect my Asus to my pc though hdmi, it officially reports 60hz, 50hz, 24hz and all other "standard refresh rate and resolutions" (like 1080i, or 59.94 NTSC refresh rate, etc...). So I hope for the engineers thier products works well with things it is supposed to support.

And his Eizo is quite like my monitor : 23" led IPS 1920x1080, about 350euros. So I suppose it should behave quite the same. And Eizo seems to have a good reputation (at least better than Asus).

[fAbZ]

With a modern monitor like Eizo Foris I would expect true 50Hz support through HDMI.

Yes you warned me about exotic refresh rates. If I connect my Asus to my pc though hdmi, it officially reports 60hz, 50hz, 24hz and all other "standard refresh rate and resolutions" (like 1080i, or 59.94 NTSC refresh rate, etc...). So I hope for the engineers thier products works well with things it is supposed to support.

And his Eizo is quite like my monitor : 23" led IPS 1920x1080, about 350euros. So I suppose it should behave quite the same. And Eizo seems to have a good reputation (at least better than Asus).

Yes, on this review, they reports correct support for 50Hertz, but (sadly) no preview images and any more explanations ...

http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2 ... art10.html

EDIT : for the EIZO Foris FS2332

[Konsolkongen]

How much was the measured lag Artemio got when he tested his program om a Nomad and the XRGB-Mini? I just tried this myself, but my pictures didn't turn out so well. In average it seems like there was a difference at rougly 2 frames between the Nomad's screen and my TV.
I believe the Nomad's had a 16ms delay, so does my Panasonic Plasma in game mode so those evens each other out. Which means that the Mini has a delay of rougly 2 frames. Does that sound right?
I can't feel any lag at all, but it's always fun to get stuff like this verified

Also Fudoh how is the email to Micomsoft coming along? Would you be so kind to suggest the following?
1:1 framerate (well obviously... )
Custom presets - preferably to be configured and saved in the menus and activated using the colored buttons on the remote.
Make the XRGB save different settings for the RGB input when using 240p, 480i and 480p - it already does this for the component input. As it is now you have to do a lot of changes when going from 240p to 480i to make it look right. It would also be cool if it could remember the output resolution you used for each input (in my case 720p for 240p-games and 1080p for 480i/p-games).

And do you think it's technically possible to make the RGB input accept 480p from the PS2, with the PS2 still set to RGB? I don't know what that would be called? RGsB? 480p with RGB colors should be similar to VGA, right? That would be extremely cool as I'm currently using component for 480p only and RGB for 240p/480i because of the better colors Besides 480p RGB must be better than 480p component, right

[Artemio]

here are my results: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 6OGc#gid=0

You can view each chart on its own tab at the bottom, some with sample pics.

[Fudoh]

I believe the Nomad's had a 16ms delay, so does my Panasonic Plasma in game mode so those evens each other out. Which means that the Mini has a delay of rougly 2 frames. Does that sound right?

When I tested the STOCK Nomad screen against a CRT I found it lagged at 8ms on average, so if you take snapshots of the Nomad screen versus another LCD or plasma display, you have to add this to what you see.

Also Fudoh how is the email to Micomsoft coming along?

I plan on having this done by early october.

And do you think it's technically possible to make the RGB input accept 480p from the PS2, with the PS2 still set to RGB? I don't know what that would be called? RGsB? 480p with RGB colors should be similar to VGA, right?

The front input on the Mini needs RGBs. DC delivers RGBHV and PS2 delivers RGsB, so if you're using an Extron interface for the DC, the PS2 will work with it already. I don't think that the front input will be able to natively accept RGsB.

[fagin]

here are my results: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 6OGc#gid=0

You can view each chart on its own tab at the bottom, some with sample pics.

Have I got the wrong end of the shit stick, or is the XRGB-3 blowing this mini into the weeds, lag wise?

[alamone]

here are my results: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 6OGc#gid=0

You can view each chart on its own tab at the bottom, some with sample pics.

Have I got the wrong end of the shit stick, or is the XRGB-3 blowing this mini into the weeds, lag wise?

I'm willing to bet that if the XRGB-3 was put into normal scaling mode (e.g. DVI/HDMI mode),
the XRGB-mini would beat the XRGB-3. It's only getting those "low" lag numbers because it's
functioning as a simple line doubler which is restricted to VGA at 640x480, or the same as a XRGB-2.

[Artemio]

You also have to consider that the best readings I got from the mini were using an HD SDI CRT, but I had to use the Edge for it to sync, it wouldn't otherwise.

So the lag from the Edge is still there.

And it is notable that my LED TV has almost zero lag via VGA, but it is VERY laggy via HDMI.

[Konsolkongen]

The front input on the Mini needs RGBs. DC delivers RGBHV and PS2 delivers RGsB, so if you're using an Extron interface for the DC, the PS2 will work with it already. I don't think that the front input will be able to natively accept RGsB.

It works using my Extron RGB 192 Unfortunately it looses sync in Guilty Gear XX Accent Core Plus during the intro and super moves I have a LM1881 in my PS2, and I have enabled sync processing on my Extron matrix as well. The RGB 192 only displays a picture when I use DDSP, which suits me fine because the picture is a little wobbly without it.
I have tried different Sync Levels in the visual options, but that didn't seem to change a thing.

I tried the Dreamcast too. In Smart_X2 mode, scaling 6/6 and sharpness at 1 it does indeed look sharper than the Gefen scaler. But there is a bit more noticeable shadows on some of the edges. Besides it looks just terrible in comparison to the Gefen when you have to set scaling to 6/5 in normal2. Hopefully they will fix that someday, and then I'll be very tempted to use it if I can mod my original VGA box to output both RGBs and VGA with the press of a switch.

EDIT: Ah I think the solution to my sync problems is to remove the 220uF caps I have in the Scart to BNC adapter for my Matrix. I added those a long time ago to see if the noise with disappear when using component video from the PS2, but it didn't. Using one of the other adapters without caps seems to work just fine. Awesome.

The only thing that annoys me about 480p in on RGB is that you HAVE to set the H_POS to exactly 64 otherwise you get an annoying white line in whatever direction you move the screen. The Mini had the same problem in the past with 240p sources in RGB but they fixed that very quickly after I started whining about it. I like to have the H_POS at 70 to remove the vertical white line in the overscan area of the NES's RGB signal. I hope they will fix this too soon

[Fudoh]

nice! anything to report about quality comparing 480p via component to 480p via RGsB ? I would assume the noise is better, but that's not a really problem on my setup as my component matrix filters this away completely before going into the Mini.

[Konsolkongen]

Yeah much less noise, but the colors are much better in my opinion as well

EDIT: An added bonus is that I can use the Extron RGB 192 to split the video, which will come in handy if I decide to buy a StarTech or Micomsoft capture card. Don't know if the monitor out-output on the RGB 192 will passthough component video though, but I can't imagine using such a capture card for anything else than RGB anyway.
480p RGsB won't work doing this for sure, but I should be able to live with that

[Hamburglar]

I am using an official SNES cable with my XRGB mini and the SNES outputs a wonderful picture. However, I got an RGB-modable N64 and get no picture at all. Here are pictures of what I did:




Very simple mod so I can't see how I did anything wrong. Just wondering maybe it's something with the XRGB I am missing? All the guides I read said this is pretty much all that is needed to be done (though some guides recommend lifting some pins to get a brighter picture but that's besides the point; I'm getting NO picture at all).

If anyone could shoot me a pointer on what could be up I'd really appreciate it!

[RGB32E]

I am using an official SNES cable with my XRGB mini and the SNES outputs a wonderful picture. However, I got an RGB-modable N64 and get no picture at all. Here are pictures of what I did:

...
Very simple mod so I can't see how I did anything wrong. Just wondering maybe it's something with the XRGB I am missing? All the guides I read said this is pretty much all that is needed to be done (though some guides recommend lifting some pins to get a brighter picture but that's besides the point; I'm getting NO picture at all).

If anyone could shoot me a pointer on what could be up I'd really appreciate it!

Maybe you broke it? Does composite and/or Y/C still give you a picture? Without an RGB amp you won't get a suitable picture.