Best option for PAL sources and HD TV

[unshapedadrian]

First time post so apologies if it's in the wrong place or has been answered before.

I've been trying to work out the best way to display my PAL retro consoles on my HDTV.

Consoles:

NES - Composite
SNES - RGB Scart
N64 - SVideo
GameCube - RGB Scart
MegaDrive - RGB Scart
DreamCast - RGB Scart
PS2- RGB Scart
3D0 - SVideo

Display: Pioneer PDP-LX5090

All my consoles and games are PAL based, I've only just recently started collecting and in the UK PAL consoles are easier to come by than NTSC consoles. Games too I'm planning on adding to my collection in the future and any new additions are also likely to be PAL. If NTSC is the best way to go then let me know and why?

It looks to me as though the XRGB-Mini might be the best option but I'm not sure if it's going to work well and as it costs quite a lot I thought I'd ask for some expert advice before investing. I also had a look at the SLG-in-a-box but I think my display might have an issue as from what I can tell it only supports 60Hz input on the PC (VGA) input.

Any advice much appreciated.

Thanks
Adrian

[speedlolita]

50Hz is why you should never buy PAL games.

[ZellSF]

All my consoles and games are PAL based, I've only just recently started collecting and in the UK PAL consoles are easier to come by than NTSC consoles. Games too I'm planning on adding to my collection in the future and any new additions are also likely to be PAL. If NTSC is the best way to go then let me know and why?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL_region ... ideo_games

Also, why the insistence on using RGB SCART for everything? The Dreamcast should definitely use VGA. The PlayStation 2 should use component. The Gamecube should use component too if it's region modded, most US version games support 480p. 480p is a huge image quality increase.

[speedlolita]

I prefer RGB SCART to component with PS2 because my TV doesn't support 240p via component.

[unshapedadrian]

All my consoles and games are PAL based, I've only just recently started collecting and in the UK PAL consoles are easier to come by than NTSC consoles. Games too I'm planning on adding to my collection in the future and any new additions are also likely to be PAL. If NTSC is the best way to go then let me know and why?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL_region ... ideo_games

Also, why the insistence on using RGB SCART for everything? The Dreamcast should definitely use VGA. The PlayStation 2 should use component. The Gamecube should use component too if it's region modded, most US version games support 480p. 480p is a huge image quality increase.

I've been sticking with RGB because it seems like the best option especially if I want to use a line doubler. If I go VGA on Dreamcast then I need to take that into account when buying my line doubler XRGB mini doesn't have VGA input for instance. PS2 component is something I will look into thanks but Gamecube component is apparently not a great way to go with PAL games because they are not 480p. I may well have been misinformed though.

[Ji-L87]

50Hz is why you should never buy PAL games.

PAL is only "bad" once you've gotten used to 60hz. Also, having NTSC-systems in PAL territory limits your options in where you can find games. No thrift stores, garages sales and that stuff, no borrowing from friends. Just online auctions and stores. So if you're fine with "just" 50 hz, at least for some titles, then you will have a much easier time finding games. Also, with the Dreamcast, PS2 & GC. many games have the option to run in 60hz PAL so in those cases, having a PAL machine doesn't have to be such a bad thing at all.

Of course, were I rich, I would probably replace all my PAL systems with NTSC ones - now that I "know" better

[lettuce]

Best option would be to get a Sony Trinitron CRT TV, loads cheaper than getting a scaler/line double etc and gives a true scanline retro look to your games which you'll never really achieve on a HDTV. I got a 3 Sony Trinitrons and never paid more than £5 for them.

Regarding the PAL/NTSC debate, 60hz is the best option to go for due to 17.5% speed difference and almost border less display. And in regards to the Mega Drive at least NTSC games seem to work out cheaper than the PAL version, just take a look at prices Probptector/Contra go for for instance...but then the Meag Drive is sooo easy to mod to 50/60hz via a slide switch

[BuckoA51]

If I go VGA on Dreamcast then I need to take that into account when buying my line doubler

It has been confirmed that VGA works on the mini with a suitable adaptor. VGA doesn't need "line doubling" of course and yes, you should use VGA on the Dreamcast wherever possible since you'll be getting 480i in a lot of cases if not.

Also, with the Dreamcast, PS2 & GC. many games have the option to run in 60hz PAL so in those cases, having a PAL machine doesn't have to be such a bad thing at all.

On the cube, PAL60 option replaces the progressive scan option in PAL games, I know which I'd rather have! Component quality on the PS2 is a bit poor, you're better off using a RGB SCART cable and only switching it over to component mode when you need it for 480p. For the mini that unfortunately means you will need to cable swap or some sort of SCART distribution amp to split the signal since the mini won't handle component video on the RGB input.

but then the Meag Drive is sooo easy to mod to 50/60hz via a slide switch

PAL machines output a weird nonstandard refresh if you do this though, causing stuttering with a lot of equipment.

[lettuce]

PAL machines output a weird nonstandard refresh if you do this though, causing stuttering with a lot of equipment.

Really?, ive never noticed any strange behavior on mine. Can you give a bit more info?, stuff like screen tearing then?

[Fudoh]

Really?, ive never noticed any strange behavior on mine. Can you give a bit more info?, stuff like screen tearing then?

only few processors are sensitive to the differences in timing between a modded PAL system and a genuine NTSC system. Most users won't notice and should not care about it.

[ZellSF]

50Hz is why you should never buy PAL games.

PAL is only "bad" once you've gotten used to 60hz. Also, having NTSC-systems in PAL territory limits your options in where you can find games. No thrift stores, garages sales and that stuff, no borrowing from friends. Just online auctions and stores. So if you're fine with "just" 50 hz, at least for some titles, then you will have a much easier time finding games. Also, with the Dreamcast, PS2 & GC. many games have the option to run in 60hz PAL so in those cases, having a PAL machine doesn't have to be such a bad thing at all.

Almost all Dreamcast and Gamecube games run in 60hz, but while many PS2 titles run 60hz, most of them don't.

PS2 component is something I will look into thanks but Gamecube component is apparently not a great way to go with PAL games because they are not 480p. I may well have been misinformed though.

If you care about image quality, 480p is essential and for that you need component (or VGA).

The problem is of course that while finding a way to run imports on a Gamecube is relatively cheap, the component cables are not. Personally I would just get a Wii, which has worse component image quality than the Gamecube, but should still be better than 480i only RGB SCART on a Gamecube.

And in addition to being pretty good for Gamecube games, a Wii is of course totally worth owning for the Wii library.

Component quality on the PS2 is a bit poor, you're better off using a RGB SCART cable and only switching it over to component mode when you need it for 480p. For the mini that unfortunately means you will need to cable swap or some sort of SCART distribution amp to split the signal since the mini won't handle component video on the RGB input.

What's so bad about component quality on the PS2 that you need to do cable swapping?

[Fudoh]

For the mini that unfortunately means you will need to cable swap or some sort of SCART distribution amp to split the signal since the mini won't handle component video on the RGB input.

a bit off topic. If you really mind the quality difference between component and RGB on a PS2, you can run a permament RGB connection into the Mini. You just need something to convert RGsB to RGBs for the 480p output - neither expensive nor complicated and it saves you swapping the cable.

[lettuce]

Really?, ive never noticed any strange behavior on mine. Can you give a bit more info?, stuff like screen tearing then?

only few processors are sensitive to the differences in timing between a modded PAL system and a genuine NTSC system. Most users won't notice and should not care about it.

What about going the other way NTSC MD modded with a 50/60hz switch?

Im actually testing this theory now have 2 PAL MD 2 console one has been modded (and is in PAL/50hz mode) the other is a non modded MD 2, am using a scart cable for both consoles to a scart switch box and have both consoles PSU connected up to a multiplug adapter so when i turn the multiplug adpapter on via the wall both console come on at the same time, im then able to press both the scart buttons on the scart switch box and both games are displayed (audio and video) on my CRT monitor at the same time, from the off 1 is a split second behind the other (guess one boots faster than the other console?) Ill go back in half an hour and see how far out of sync they are from each other

[Fudoh]

you won't notice anything.

[BuckoA51]

only few processors are sensitive to the differences in timing between a modded PAL system and a genuine NTSC system. Most users won't notice and should not care about it.

I've actually found the NTSC modded PAL MD to be so far off spec its upset every processor I've tried, which is:-

DVDO Edge + XRGB3
DVDO Edge on its own
Optoma Themescene + XRGB3
Gefen VGA to DVI + XRGB3 and
XRGB Mini.

The effect was either a white line that cut across the picture every few seconds and/or stuttering during scrolling, except on the Optoma which wouldn't display the picture at all. I've not actually tried connecting my MD to a TV directly but I can't imagine the sorts of cheap upscalers in TV's as standard would be more forgiving. I believe with a CRT it would be perfectly fine though.

What about going the other way NTSC MD modded with a 50/60hz switch?

I think that would be fine, but I'm waiting to try this, the guy who does my mods has been tied up with other work lately.

a bit off topic. If you really mind the quality difference between component and RGB on a PS2, you can run a permament RGB connection into the Mini. You just need something to convert RGsB to RGBs for the 480p output - neither expensive nor complicated and it saves you swapping the cable.

Ah because PS2 uses sync on green if you set it to 480p + RGB? That's a good idea what converter would be needed? Perhaps an Extron RGB interface would do it? I've already got a AV distributor but that's a good solution for other users without such an esoteric setup.

Personally I would just get a Wii, which has worse component image quality than the Gamecube

Really is a lot worse though, but yes, Gamecube component cables are pretty rare now.

What's so bad about component quality on the PS2 that you need to do cable swapping?

Quality is just poor on component, it looks pretty ugly in PS1 games for instance, there's noise and moire patterns on parts of the image.

[Fudoh]

Ah because PS2 uses sync on green if you set it to 480p + RGB? That's a good idea what converter would be needed? Perhaps an Extron RGB interface would do it?

it sure would.

[Overkill]

PAL machines output a weird nonstandard refresh if you do this though, causing stuttering with a lot of equipment.

Really?, ive never noticed any strange behavior on mine. Can you give a bit more info?, stuff like screen tearing then?

Yes, i confirm that too with my PAL megadrive with home made 50/60hz switch and the DVDO Edge, and with my RGB scart to component adapter too.

The Gamecube should use component too if it's region modded, most US version games support 480p. 480p is a huge image quality increase.

All my consoles and games are PAL based, I've only just recently started collecting and in the UK PAL consoles are easier to come by than NTSC consoles. Games too I'm planning on adding to my collection in the future and any new additions are also likely to be PAL. If NTSC is the best way to go then let me know and why?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL_region ... ideo_games

Also, why the insistence on using RGB SCART for everything? The Dreamcast should definitely use VGA. The PlayStation 2 should use component. The Gamecube should use component too if it's region modded, most US version games support 480p. 480p is a huge image quality increase.

I don't think it will be cheap and easy to find a Gamecube component cable nowadays. Everytime i see one for sell its very expensive

[lettuce]

PAL machines output a weird nonstandard refresh if you do this though, causing stuttering with a lot of equipment.

Really?, ive never noticed any strange behavior on mine. Can you give a bit more info?, stuff like screen tearing then?

Yes, i confirm that too with my PAL megadrive with home made 50/60hz switch and the DVDO Edge, and with my RGB scart to component adapter too.

But is that if just using scalers etc?

[BuckoA51]

Probably affects HDTV's too, you can use the 240p test suite scrolling test to find out for sure. I don't believe CRT's would be affected.

[Overkill]

On HDTV, yes. I have found just one CRT tv that don't liked that same megadrive and refuses to output image, one LG

[lettuce]

Probably affects HDTV's too, you can use the 240p test suite scrolling test to find out for sure. I don't believe CRT's would be affected.

Oh i miss understood you, i thought you ment the actually mod messed up the speed for 50 and 60hz, so the games ran too fast or too slow, and not at their correct PAL or NTSC speeds

[Fudoh]

That's right, but we're talking about something like 0.05Hz off the timing standards...