STGT'12: The Aftermath

[Aliquantic]

(not having to sit through the attract mode is at least okay by me).

Batrider's rank starts out higher than normal at bootup and goes down if left idling in attract mode. ^_~

Just set it to Service Mode and use Start, and the rank will default to the minimum value in Batrider too.

[KAI]

Playing for money, I'm not sure about that.

[PROMETHEUS]

I don't see a problem with the format of STGT as I was under the impression the STGT was more about getting people to try shmups they might not normally try, or focus on a game as a community for a week at a time to learn tricks and such to have fun. Obviously the format of limiting the game to one week or even a month means it shouldn't be treated like a serious scoring tournament focusing on attaining the sort of scores that require dedicating a huge chunk of one's time to, and I don't think that was ever the intention of the STGT anyways.

Here's the way I see it : it's a tournament with rankings. The point of it is to win, and your competitors are other tournament's members. So the winner is whoever is #1, that's whoever will spend most time or have the most previous experience of the game. So it's not much fun, unless you don't take it seriously at all, but then what is the point of making a tournament out of it, with teams and points too ? If you're not playing seriously, how are you even going to play the game at all ? Sure in the end you can say "who wins really doesn't matter at all because the format is not competitive", but there will be players looking for competition who will try seriously, and the others will try semi seriously, and the rankings will only reflect the degree of seriousness of players rather than anything else at all.

Also I can't believe you guys have put up with all this cheating shit years after years, a tournament REQUIRES score verification, it's not even an option. Only the players at the bottom of the rankings don't give a cheat (lol), some probably like it better that way too cause they can believe everyone who has big scores at the top might be cheaters. But what the hell do you think the guys up there feel like when there's no way to know if the others are legit, because all they have to do to win is "type your score in a post" ? And that on top of that, some players behave in a very suspicious and/or arrogant, provocative way ?

[ebarrett]

the winner is whoever is #1, that's whoever will spend most time or have the most previous experience of the game

instead of submitting scores we should submit how much free time we had for stgt'13, dex can calculate everyone's scores from that

[PROMETHEUS]

the winner is whoever is #1, that's whoever will spend most time or have the most previous experience of the game

instead of submitting scores we should submit how much free time we had for stgt'13, dex can calculate everyone's scores from that

lol good idea

[Dave_K.]

The point of it is to win, and your competitors are other tournament's members. So the winner is whoever is #1, that's whoever will spend most time or have the most previous experience of the game. So it's not much fun, unless you don't take it seriously at all, but then what is the point of making a tournament out of it, with teams and points too ?

Actually that is exactly why, teams. Points and individual standings are less important to me than the team. I don't know if everyone does this, but each year I've been playing STGT, we create our own private team forum, and use it to discuss the games, give tips and encouragement, help each other get better scores. Its the reason why I play as I think its brings us closer together as a community.

Sure there will be cheating, its expected, its the Internet dude! Trying to strengthen rules around score validation is only going to invite more cheating, as that in itself becomes a fun challenge, especially when boring games get chosen.

Prometheus, I know you didn't play in this STGT, but have you played in any past one? I think you'd find a better use for your tips and encouragement by helping one of the teams raise up in the ranks.

[PROMETHEUS]

Prometheus, I know you didn't play in this STGT, but have you played in any past one? I think you'd find a better use for your tips and encouragement by helping one of the teams raise up in the ranks.

Some of the first years I was kind of interested that something was going on but when I saw the format and the games I just naturally withdrew from it. I understand that it's fun to have a team and share tips etc, though I think the same flaws of competition remain.

I really do see the point of STGT, I just think it should change format according to what it wants. I think first of all it shouldn't be a tournament, it should be an event. At the end of every week, each team should have to submit a video of their best run, and maybe an omake video with excerpts from each of its players. There should be no individual rankings at all. There could be a vote on the best omake video, and there could be two team-based rankings : one for best scores (rank in each week give points to team), and one for omake votes (rank in each week give points to team in a separate ranking). That would accomplish what you guys want and which I really respect : have fun playing around together in a laid back way, sharing a passion with everyone focusing on the same few games for a while. Some teams could go for the omake ranking rather than scoring, and try to find weird way to exploit the game or make fun unique stuff with it, with a theme specific to the team. One would do very bad play, one would look for safespots, one would do strategic suicides, survival, joke stuff, up to each team to find their style, like I've seen it was kind of the case already in previous years. I think that is why you guys are playing STGT, so make it what it wants to be ! Format is very important, you would have very little drama if the format gave a better and less ambiguous direction for the whole event. Make the point of STGT the sharing between players of the team, and then the sharing and publishing of those nice videos to the community at large.

If part of STGT is going to be a scoring ranking though, I disagree that verification is optional. It makes no sense at all to say that if you are going to try to win, it ruins the fun for everyone at the top. And I don't think a basic layer of security invites more cheating at all, no. That's never been the case anywhere I've competed. When there was no security, cheaters would flock around like crazy especially if there was some kind of reward for competition (rankings published for instance). Games that have online leaderboards but no basic security get hacked and you see rankings filled with cheated counterstopped scores.

You know, I'm all for freedom and I understand too much security sucks, but competition is very different from other things. Competition is all about coming out on top with whatever means you can, and you learn a lot of things in the process. If you don't make it clear what the rules are, and if you don't make those rules enforceable in reasonable terms, some people will cheat as... just a way to come out on top.

As for my own tips/encouragements, I can see how I could be useful at coaching some guys in a team, but I'm just not very interested in playing. People can always ask me if they want advice, and if I have time and interest in giving advice then I will !

[Eaglet]

lol at Batrider playing like Garegga (it does not)
lol at Batrider not having a "useless rank system" (Batrider Advanced rank is MUCH harder to control than Garegga's. To even decrease rank you always have to suicide down to your LAST LIFE. None of the previous suicides count. An Advanced clear is not probable at all without proper rank control. Batrider Advanced with all extra bosses is Futari Ultra-style difficulty.)

[Ed Oscuro]

You got me there. I had a look at the APB rank system and...

Still, there's that matter of Garegga carrying rank over (as well as having to use the service trick to avoid inflated rank from the first bootup!), which is completely ridiculous.

[The Coop]

lol at Batrider playing like Garegga (it does not)

Except for the weapon power up system, the bomb system, the medal system, the "helper" ships system, the overall feel of the game and behavior of some of the bosses...

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I really do see the point of STGT, I just think it should change format according to what I want.

[Eaglet]

Still, there's that matter of Garegga carrying rank over (as well as having to use the service trick to avoid inflated rank from the first bootup!), which is completely ridiculous.

Just get the zakk-roms and = problem solved.

Except for the weapon power up system

If you mean the "Shot - level up"-system, it's different. Especially since you can go from base to full power in the first stage (avoid three shot power-ups, pickup the next and get special power up).

the "helper" ships system

This one's different for all the new ships. Batrider options are fixated to one type of firing.

the overall feel of the game and behavior of some of the bosses...

Disagree strongly about the feel. Batrider is a much much much more fast paced and aggressive game. If you've got a run down in Garegga it'll usually look pretty much the same... depending on execution.
Batrider changes things around much more, since rank is harder to control and small mistakes make huge differences (miss an extend before a secret boss; miss the boss and your run will be entirely different).

Of course some of the bosses are gonna behave in the same way if they're the same bosses (BH 1&2, Glow Squid).

[Ed Oscuro]

Still, there's that matter of Garegga carrying rank over (as well as having to use the service trick to avoid inflated rank from the first bootup!), which is completely ridiculous.

Just get the zakk-roms and = problem solved.

If I were getting ROMs I'd be getting them to update a Batrider Japan A to B! But yeah, I guess Zakk ROMs and the service menu can negate that particular complaint more or less effectively (also probably not an issue in the arcade if the machine has been up and humming for a while - if anything it's the massive ROM test delay at boot that annoys me, I think it's even longer than ST-V games).

[PROMETHEUS]

I really do see the point of STGT, I just think it should change format according to what I want.

Yeah no I still wouldn't take part in an event like that. I'm into competition. Every one of you guys who see the drama about score verification and such but who are still against it go "well it's just for fun, we're not really competing !". Since it seems people thinking like that in STGT are the majority, then I guess that's what STGT wants to be. Then make it what it wants it to be, evolve damnit !!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

That would accomplish what you guys want and which I really respect : have fun playing around together in a laid back way, sharing a passion with everyone focusing on the same few games for a while.

Uh, that's pretty much how most of the people in STGT seem to treat it already, so it's kinda like you're trying to fix something that isn't broken.

Not showing an interest in participating apparently hasn't stopped you from being convinced you know what's best for STGT. This coming from the guy who "still wouldn't take part in an event like that" even if his tl;dr changes were implemented, lol.

[Aguraki]

can´t find the recap thread so see the scores,is there one?

[Ed Oscuro]

can´t find the recap thread so see the scores,is there one?

There isn't a single post with all the game scores for all five weeks. There is a thread showing total individual and team points and rankings, and also week five's individual and team rankings (previous weeks had their own threads). There are threads for each game's scores in Hi Scores.

[PROMETHEUS]

That would accomplish what you guys want and which I really respect : have fun playing around together in a laid back way, sharing a passion with everyone focusing on the same few games for a while.

Uh, that's pretty much how most of the people in STGT seem to treat it already, so it's kinda like you're trying to fix something that isn't broken.

Not showing an interest in participating apparently hasn't stopped you from being convinced you know what's best for STGT. This coming from the guy who "still wouldn't take part in an event like that" even if his tl;dr changes were implemented, lol.

Not broken, but I think it's imperfect, that's why you get all the drama imo. And I think you understand, even if I'm not taking part I think it's a cool thing. Those are just my opinions man, I'm not saying I'm necessarily right, I'd love to hear what people think about them and propose something better or different. Just because I care :)

Or you can say, you don't agree, STGT is fine and can't be improved, here is why, etc. You're trying to make fun of me for just giving my opinion, what's wrong with that ?

[Ed Oscuro]

Not broken, but I think it's imperfect, that's why you get all the drama imo.

There's going to be drama no matter what, because perfect validation isn't possible. Why is this so hard to understand? There is always a doubt that somebody could have cheated. Even officiating in person has its pitfalls here.

[PROMETHEUS]

There's going to be drama no matter what, because perfect validation isn't possible. Why is this so hard to understand?

Because perfect validation not being possible is not the point -_-;;

[Ed Oscuro]

Then you shouldn't use words like "imperfect."

[Herr Schatten]

Not broken, but I think it's imperfect, that's why you get all the drama imo.

I think the main reason for all the drama is people expecting STGT to be something it's not.

From its beginnings, it has always been a friendly gathering, with score submissions based on mutual trust. The entry barrier is intentionally low, so everyone who wants to can join in. I know fun is frowned upon by some of the more competitive members here, but that's really all STGT has always been about. You discover new, obscure or underplayed games, discuss with your team mates, and engage in rivalry with other participants. If you take out friendliness and trust, you get instant drama.

The actual tournament character of STGT is somewhat less emphasized, and I think that's fine. That's why you have teams, and that's why the team ranking is pretty much the real ranking. The score submissions and the rankings are more of an encouragement than the all-out purpose of the tournament.

For me, this format is about as good as it gets, because STGT has made me sit down and play a lot of games I'd barely have touched otherwise. I'm certainly no top-tier player, and even if I was, my limited spare time wouldn't allow for competing with people who can spend eight hours a day on playing. Within my boundaries, I put in serious effort every single playing week, though. If it wasn't for this year's STGT I'd never have bothered to play Salamander 2 beyond the opening level or actually learn the scoring in ESPGaluda (because I usually only play for the 1CC anyway).

I can understand if some people feel that there's a lack of fierce competition (which may or may not require some sort of score verification) in STGT, but I really think STGT is not the event they're looking for. That's not to say there isn't a place for something like that, but I honestly think it's not STGT. I'd rather see a seperate tournament that caters to the needs of the more competitive players than see STGT change in a way that, in my opinion, goes against its spirit.

[ebarrett]

my limited spare time wouldn't allow for competing with people who can spend eight hours a day on playing

> implying that everyone who gets decent scores plays a billion hours

[trap15]

>missing the point

[PROMETHEUS]

Not broken, but I think it's imperfect, that's why you get all the drama imo.

I can understand if some people feel that there's a lack of fierce competition (which may or may not require some sort of score verification) in STGT, but I really think STGT is not the event they're looking for. That's not to say there isn't a place for something like that, but I honestly think it's not STGT. I'd rather see a seperate tournament that caters to the needs of the more competitive players than see STGT change in a way that, in my opinion, goes against its spirit.

I agree with you and is why I think STGT format should be changed in a less ambiguous way so that it doesn't emphasize on competition at all :] Like with the removal of individual rankings, and perhaps something on the side that has to do with fun but not with scoring. And again, of course verification needs to be added for top spots if there is a score ranking. Or, just verification would ease all the drama.

By the way guys, you might want to know this :
when AEX organized its very competitive Guwange Tournament (which was incidently a lot of fun), there was no drama at all. lol.

[hwl]

Not broken, but I think it's imperfect, that's why you get all the drama imo.

I can understand if some people feel that there's a lack of fierce competition (which may or may not require some sort of score verification) in STGT, but I really think STGT is not the event they're looking for. That's not to say there isn't a place for something like that, but I honestly think it's not STGT. I'd rather see a seperate tournament that caters to the needs of the more competitive players than see STGT change in a way that, in my opinion, goes against its spirit.

And again, of course verification needs to be added for top spots if there is a score ranking.

Why?

What's the problem with having a "friendly" competition? It's not that the people who aren't going for top 50 or top 10 wouldn't be interested in how they performed compared to the others. STGT has more than 200 participants year after year, only a small amount of whom are taking this as seriously as to try to reach the highest place possible. It's just that the fun part plays a more important role in this than the competition part. But without the scoreboards, it would be less fun; just as it would also be less fun for a major part of the players if they had to go to great lengths for score verification to prove their scores just because there might be 5% dicks who have to cheat (for whatever reason). Let them cheat if it helps them cope with their lifes. Is it that hard to understand that this is supposed to be a fun competition? I'm quite sure the number of participants would dwindle if individual scoreboards were removed or score verification (i.e. replays) made mandatory.

I see why one would want a real competition to participate in. But I don't think that this should be STGT.

[NTSC-J]

What's the problem with having a "friendly" competition?

Nothing, but STGT has never been particularly "friendly" has it? Even with the relaxed rules, people complain from the very beginning: the dates aren't good, the game selection process is flawed, the chosen games are ass, teammates won't participate, people post suspicious scores, people cheat outright, etc. I think the fact that it's only a yearly thing with organized teams and game selections there's an implication that it's a bit more serious than an impulsive game of "race you to the end of the block". It's ok if people don't want to quit their jobs to get a good score, but a number of people really try hard to win.

just as it would also be less fun for a major part of the players if they had to go to great lengths for score verification

No one is asking for a urine test and two forms of government ID. Just select "play and record input" when you start a run.

[Herr Schatten]

I agree with you and is why I think STGT format should be changed in a less ambiguous way so that it doesn't emphasize on competition at all :] Like with the removal of individual rankings, and perhaps something on the side that has to do with fun but not with scoring.

I don't know. There's more to competition than just finding out who's the best of the best, and not all competition happens near the top of the list. Personally, I like competing with people who play roughly at my level, and the current form of STGT offers me the opportunity to do just that.

Doing away with just the individual rankings beyond what's needed to calculate the team score for each week sounds like an good idea, though.

And again, of course verification needs to be added for top spots if there is a score ranking. Or, just verification would ease all the drama.

I still don't really see the need to make verification mandatory. People have always posted screenshots and replays voluntarily, and that's good enough for me. I also don't think cheating is that big a problem in the context of STGT, because a) it's incredibly lame and silly to cheat at a fun event with no prizes anyway and b) even if there are fake scores (I doubt there are many), those don't make the legit scores any less impressive. All the cheaters really achieve is depriving themselves of actual accomplishments.

I really think you can't make everyone happy, but so far STGT strikes a good balance between accessibility and competition. That's why I suggest a seperate tournament for those who feel uncomfortable without strict score verification, mandatory replays and all that jazz.

[hwl]

What's the problem with having a "friendly" competition?

Nothing, but STGT has never been particularly "friendly" has it? Even with the relaxed rules, people complain from the very beginning: the dates aren't good, the game selection process is flawed, the chosen games are ass, teammates won't participate, people post suspicious scores, people cheat outright, etc. I think the fact that it's only a yearly thing with organized teams and game selections there's an implication that it's a bit more serious than an impulsive game of "race you to the end of the block". It's ok if people don't want to quit their jobs to get a good score, but a number of people really try hard to win.

It's kinda sad that there's quite some whining going on. But with more than 200 people taking part in this, it is to be expected that some of them state their opinions on matters like the timeframe, game selection process or games not being their favourites. I don't see anything wrong with that and most of the posts on such issues are indeed "friendly" and constructive. After all, those 200+ people still participate. I doubt that would be the case if STGT was serious business.

just as it would also be less fun for a major part of the players if they had to go to great lengths for score verification

No one is asking for a urine test and two forms of government ID. Just select "play and record input" when you start a run.

You know.. with mame, it's simple for the most part, aside from me not being able to playback any *.inps, because everyone records with a different version of mame and I don't want to have over 9000 programs ready just to watch how someone didn't cheat. And that's where problems begin. Who verificates the *.inps? Is that verificating person expected to have every version of mame ready to check? Or will the players be required to play with one particular version of mame? What if on the machines of some of those people the required mame doesn't run (like unfortunately shmupmame doesn't work on my machine)?
Then doujin week. The problems with that game (Super Star Shooter) were great enough without a mandatory video confirmation. And the player numbers this week were the smallest. Surprise! Now go ahead, make this competition serious business with mandatory inputs and replays and lose three quarters the participants, just so that the remaining 50 people can bitch about the same things some are bitching about now, and just to realise that *.inps and video recordings can also be faked.

tl;dr:

I really think you can't make everyone happy, but so far STGT strikes a good balance between accessibility and competition. That's why I suggest a seperate tournament for those who feel uncomfortable without strict score verification, mandatory replays and all that jazz.

[Ed Oscuro]

Nothing, but STGT has never been particularly "friendly" has it?

Don't project what you focus on onto everybody else. For a lot of us, STGT has always been pretty friendly. If your panties are getting in a bunch because of the complaints, you need some perspective!