XRGB-mini Framemeister

[BuckoA51]

H_SCALER this and V_SCALER that, geez this thing sure is fiddly, I still find myself preferring XRGB3 + DVDO wherever that combination works. Let's hope the XRGB4 does a better job

[Fudoh]

na, it's really really great to have this flexibility. I can't think of any other processor which can handle 240p games running in 480i (Taito or Psikyo collections) this nice - - and that's something only possible through the extensive tuning possibilites of the scaling engine (V_SCALER set to . And for real 240p the h/v settings aren't neccessary at all (though you can get a tiny bit more sharpness by setting H to 5 instead of 6).

It just gets tricky for 480p material and obviously different users prefer different settings. I usually don't use the Mini for 480p.

[BuckoA51]

I've had 288p sources (Sinclair Spectrum) where it's been necessary to mess with H_SCALER and V_SCALER as well as V_SIZE. I suppose you can say that some sources need manual AFC on the XRGB3 and that's only the same kind of thing, as in things you have to mess about with on a per-source basis I mean.

[Konsolkongen]

User customisable presets, please Micomsoft...

[BuckoA51]

That would certainly help, I'll also be happy to document anyone's settings on the Wiki since I get tired of trawling through long threads very quickly. Once you've decided on the best 480p presents I'll get them committed to the Wiki.

[Zombisaurus]

That would certainly help, I'll also be happy to document anyone's settings on the Wiki since I get tired of trawling through long threads very quickly. Once you've decided on the best 480p presents I'll get them committed to the Wiki.

Yes please! That would be great.

[RGB32E]

I can't get the Wii to look very good on the Mini at all, I've stuck to my old XRGB3->DVDO Edge transcoding setup. What settings are you using for the scaler with the Wii?, I'm curious to try this for myself.

Here are the settings I'm using for the Wii:
PICTURE MODE
ASPECT_RATIO 4:3 // actually 16:9 - bug
NORMAL2 Scaling
BRIGHTNESS - 25
GAMMA - 10 //might be 8 now
BLACK - 0
HUE - 45 //default value is too purple
SATURATION - 34
SHARPNESS - 1 // 0 is too soft with the Wii - Normally use 0 for 240p sources
AUTO_SCALER - OFF
H_SCALER - 5
V_SCALER - 7
OUTPUT_COLOR - RGB
OUTPUT_MODE - HDMI
A/D_LEVEL - 120
DEEP_COLOR - AUTO

[BuckoA51]

Those settings still look dreadful on my TV, all the text for instance looks fuzzy.. I'll have another play with it when I have more time.

[Fudoh]

Ok. here's GGX on Dreamcast. First on the Gefen, scaled from 480p to 1080p. The Gefen is set to Clock 108 and Phase 30 to allow a proper recognition of the DC's 720x480p output. The AR is a bit too wide, maybe + 2 inches on each side (on 52").



And here's the same game running through the Mini. Scaled from 480p to 960p using the Smart x2 mode. The Mini's considerably sharper, especially in the vertical scaling. H_SCALER = 7, V_SCALER = 6, SHARPNESS = 1. Overall Sharpness 1 and H_SCALER 7 are a bit much. I would probably chose H_SCALER 6 instead or turn of the Sharpness function.



The above settings only work properly in Smart x2 mode. Once you chose another image mode, V_SCALER = 6 is messy, as it does just nearest neighbour scaling and this results om jagged edges and pixel rows of different high. V_SCALER = 5 is a proper scaling mode. It's a tiny bit softer than the Gefen's scaling, but still nice. Pay attention to the diagonal edges of the ice block. V_SCALER = 5 on the left and 6 on the right.



On 2D games which don't use checkerboard patterns, it's really just a matter of taste, but with V-SCALER = 6 checkerboard patterns are completely screwed up. For 3D titles V_SCALER = 5 is a must as 6 results in really bad jaggies all over the place. SHARPNESS = 1 produces waxy edges on all 3D content, so it's 0 for me for anything not strictly 2D. See the following shots from OR2SP.

First one is Smart x2 (960p) V_SCALER = 5 on the left and 6 on the right. 6 is kinda ok if one likes a blocky texture to all the details. Second row is Normal AR (1080p) and while V_SCALER = 5 (left) has about the same quality as before. V_SCALER = 6 gets really destructive around detailed edges (right bottom).



And here are some more shots. Again V_SCALER = 5 on the left and 6 on the right. Taken in Normal AR (1080p).



I would conclude: If you intend to use various AR (aspect ratio) settings, use V_SCALER = 5 on all non-240p sources. For 480p HD material Smart x 2 is an alternative, but it screws with the AR and you get a bit of underscan of course.

[BuckoA51]

Much better on the Wii with those settings, but XRGB3 + DVDO Edge still looks a lot nicer, the edges of text are just too fuzzy on the mini. I know the Wii is weird though, I'll have to give Gamecube and Xbox a go too.

[Fudoh]

Much better on the Wii with those settings, but XRGB3 + DVDO Edge still looks a lot nicer

I have to admit that I haven't tried my Wii yet on the Mini. But just to be clear: XRGB-3 + Edge is basically the same as Edge alone for the Wii. I kinda liked my Wii on my 50Pro when I last tried it (nearly two years ago now).

[BuckoA51]

I have to admit that I haven't tried my Wii yet on the Mini. But just to be clear: XRGB-3 + Edge is basically the same as Edge alone for the Wii.

Scaling is slightly better by transcoding it first and feeding it in via the RGBHV inputs, not as pronounced as with 240p material but definitely better. Of course in this setup you can add scanlines easily with a SLG too.

[Fudoh]

You're right. I remember the discussion about it. But still no need to use a XRGB here, there are cheaper transcoders out there I hope this whole business about the Wii's mediocre component signal ends with the WiiU release in a few months from now.

I just tried a new YUV to HDMI converter (my 4th one now) and with 480p directly to my TV it easily beats the Mini, so unless the TV in question has severe problems with upscaling 480p from HDMI, using the Mini to do this is certainly not the best approach.

[BuckoA51]

Oh yes sure having an XRGB3, DVDO Edge and Mini is way overkill but I actually prefer XRGB3+Edge to Mini for other things too, its 240p/288p scaling is great (with the rather big caveat that some things don't work e.g PC Engine) and very much lag free, so combined with the Edge's vastly superior zoom/pan features much 240/288p stuff is hassle free and low lag with the XRGB3. There's no messing with H_SCALERS and V_WIDTH etc to get scanlines and perfect picture it just works. Scaling wise there's not much to call between XRGB3+DVDO and Mini with 240p stuff. XRGB3+Edge also doesn't take half an age to switch when the picture changes from 240p to 480i spoiling games like Pinball Illusions. So yeah, I wouldn't exactly tell someone to get a XRGB3 over a Mini but I'm sure glad I didn't part with mine.

I hope this whole business about the Wii's mediocre component signal ends with the WiiU release in a few months from now.

Not unless the WiiU is compatible with USB Loader

[Konsolkongen]

I would conclude: If you intend to use various AR (aspect ratio) settings, use V_SCALER = 5 on all non-240p sources. For 480p HD material Smart x 2 is an alternative, but it screws with the AR and you get a bit of underscan of course.

Exactly what I have been doing all along Nothing wrong with V_Scaler 5 when playing 3D games, but for 2D games I do prefer it at 6 and Smart_X2. That said I almost never play in Smart_X2 mode. It's just too much of a hassle to configure each time. And if you are playing a widescreen game you not only have to zoom the image on the EDGE, you'll have to stretch it as well...

You have said several times that the Marvell scaler can easily handle proper 1080p with scanlines, and I hope it will be able to do ringing-free scaling as well? I sure hope Micomsoft will sort this out soon, as 720p to 1080p scaling on my TV doesn't look as hot as I used to think now that I have noticed that every second scanline is a tiny bit thicker. And 480p scaled on my TV just looks like crap

[Fudoh]

You have said several times that the Marvell scaler can easily handle proper 1080p with scanlines, and I hope it will be able to do ringing-free scaling as well?

it certainly can. I use the processor nearly every day. I've created scanlined test images and had them scaled using the media player functions on my BD player (with said Marvell processor) and the scaling from 480p to 1080p is flawless.

[Konsolkongen]

Awesome

EDIT: I'm actually surprised that the Mini can upscale Dreamcast sharper than the Gefen. Will it be possible for Micomsoft to let it upscale in Normal or Normal 2 properly without nearest neighbor artifacts and zero ringing?

[CkRtech]

For you guys that have made some cables - be they JP21 or SCART - Do you bother to do all of the grounds, or do you just solder to one particular ground?

I switched a Euro SCART connector to a JP21 connector last night. The mini recognized the power up of the unit (a SNES), but didn't produce a picture. I'll check the connections when I get home, but I figure I just didn't quite get the ground leads soldered properly/completely. Heck - I should have already been asleep at the time I did it.

I didn't go to pin 21, but it seems like the framemeister should be good as long as there is a ground connection on the 21/shield.

Any reason to bother with all of those ground pins in the connector if you are only going to be plugging it into the -> 9 pin mini port anyway?

[jdubs]

Guys, quick question. How is audio handled with the Framemeister? I know the RGB input has stereo audio (analog) pins and there is also a pair of stereo analog audio inputs.

I plan on using the Framemeister (its on its way to me according to Solaris) solely with the RGB input...with a switcher ahead of it to switch sources. Does the mini convert (both?) audio inputs (the RGB and the separate pair of RCAs) to digital for outputting via HDMI (along with the scaled video)?

Thanks!!
Jim

[Fudoh]

The RCAs on the back can be used with HDMI and Component only. For RGB you have to use the internal audio on the front input.

[pyrotek85]

The RCAs on the back can be used with HDMI and Component only. For RGB you have to use the internal audio on the front input.

Yeah that's how it works for me as well whenever I mistakenly use the wrong audio inputs on a component source.

[jdubs]

The RCAs on the back can be used with HDMI and Component only. For RGB you have to use the internal audio on the front input.

So, if I'm wanting to use the RGB input and output via HDMI (including audio), I need to use the stereo pins on the RGB input, correct? Just thinking through my cabling needs.

-Jim

[Fudoh]

a PS for Konsolkongen:

When you feed some scanlined signal to the Mini (e.g. any of the Sega Ages titles with enabled 480p + scanlines output) or a SLG'ed signal, the Mini will upscale it perfectly to any resolution (720p, 1080p with or without Smart x2) mode as long as you keep the V_SCALER setting at 5 or lower.

All Micomsoft has to do is overlay the scanlines first (on the linedoubled picture for 240p content, on the deinterlaced signal for 480i or on the raw 480p signal) and upscale afterwards.

I'm a bit surprised myself about the 720p mode. The scanlines look as if they're upscaled with the image, but the scaling settings do not affect the scanlines, just the graphics behind them. Makes me wonder how they accomplish this

Will it be possible for Micomsoft to let it upscale in Normal or Normal 2 properly without nearest neighbor artifacts and zero ringing?

I think you have all the available scaling options on hand. Do you really see ringing for 480p sources ? There's obviously a bug in the horizontal scaling engine (which causes those hard color transitions and which might be fixable) - maybe you mistake this for ringing? But for vertical this is very likely as good as it gets (which is V_SCALER = 5 for 480p content on Normal1/2 AR settings).

[Konsolkongen]

a PS for Konsolkongen:
All Micomsoft has to do is overlay the scanlines first (on the linedoubled picture for 240p content, on the deinterlaced signal for 480i or on the raw 480p signal) and upscale afterwards.

Ah yes of course. That would instantly solve the 1080p problems. Makes you wonder why they chose this approach? Could they gain anything lagwise from adding scanlines last? Is the hardware capable of linedoubling > scanlines > upscaling?

I think you have all the available scaling options on hand. Do you really see ringing for 480p sources ? There's obviously a bug in the horizontal scaling engine (which causes those hard color transitions and which might be fixable) - maybe you mistake this for ringing? But for vertical this is very likely as good as it gets (which is V_SCALER = 5 for 480p content on Normal1/2 AR settings).

You're probably right. I'm probably mistaking most blurred edges for ringing. If you don't see real ringing anywhere then I'm sure you are right. But I think you know what I meant

[Fudoh]

Ah yes of course. That would instantly solve the 1080p problems. Makes you wonder why they chose this approach? Could they gain anything lagwise from adding scanlines last? Is the hardware capable of linedoubling > scanlines > upscaling?

I checked the 720p scanlines closely. It's a hard call because of the TV's scaling. I think they overlay a pattern (255/120/0) in 720p mode, so adding scanlines first should even make the 720p mode look better than it does now.

It would be a shame if it was a hardware limitation and if the scanline overlay was to happen only after the scaling. It certainly has nothing to with the lag. And I also don't think it's a hardware limitation. The signal path should be FPGA first (they need this for the 240p doubling) and Marvell second. I don't know where they overlay the scanlines, but I would assume that it's the same FPGA used for doubling, so they probably actually do FPGA>MARVELL>FPGA>OUTPUT. We'll see about that. I really have to get this bug translation into japanese going.

Scanline overlay for 480p sources and 480p is still completely broken, right ?

I also noticed a little bug: If input and output is 480p then Normal1/2 add a soft column or two to the picture, where the picture gets muddy. Setting the AR to Smart x1 instead solves this. (Not that anybody cares though)

[Artemio]

If you need translation into Japanese I can ask my pal Marc - with whom I did the Policenauts translation - to help us out. I do know Japanese myself, but am nowhere near his level of expertise.

[Fudoh]

friend of mine if fluent in japanese, it's just a time/coordination matter. He had some concerns because of the technical nature of the text (and since he has really no knowledge what deinterlacing or scaling would be to begin with). If he can't get it done, I'll gladly contact you for help. Thanks for the offer ! Highly appreciated !

PS: @Jim: yes.

[jdubs]

PS: @Jim: yes.

Thanks!

-Jim

[jdubs]

Hey guys

I wanted to follow-up on my earlier Naomi question. It turns out that there is a switch on the Capcom I/O that allows you to select either composite (what you want to the Framemeister) or H/V sync. Its cool to have this flexibility.

Also, I'm ordering up one of these to provide for RGB switching:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230386583172?_t ... 652wt_1139

Super cheap...hopefully it works ok. I'm planning to run three custom cables into it (with the correct Framemeister pinout) and a STANDARD male-male mini din 8 cable from the output into the Framemeister's input. I figure that if all of the input cables are utilizing the correct pinouts, the output cable can just be a standard.

Hopefully it works as planned!

-Jim

[Yamato]

but I'm still looking for a proper cable to connect the VGA box with the XRGB mini's RGB in (VGA to RGBs/EU Scart). It would be nice if there was also a stereo chinch on the VGA side so you can have the sound signal on the Scart plug too.

Doesn't ArcadeForge's UMSA do that? http://wp1114205.wp150.webpack.hosteuro ... p?cPath=15

Thanks for your reply!

Yes, the UMSA does that. But a simple custom cable should be enough for that purpose according to what Fudoh wrote me. As I wrote, Moosmann wasn't yet successful building that cable or he seems to be busy getting the right parts. I don't know. Haven't hear from him in while now.

So any more suggestions