XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Fudoh]

Be nice if someone could try this and confirm, I believe a Micomsoft engineer said it should work.

31khz VGA works, but I haven't tried a dedicated circuit - just an Extron interface to convert from RGBHV to RGBs.

And while at it: 240p via HDMI works as well

[Artemio]

And while at it: 240p via HDMI works as well

¿What source gave you that?

[papa_november]

1. I use an Extron with a nasty custom 4BNC-to-MiniDIN-8 adaptor. It works, but it was a pain in the ass to make because the gigantic BNC output on the Extron and the tiny size of a MinDIN-8 connector means that there's no way to sensibly cram the thick wires involved into such a small space. I had to use a project box.

2. Look on eBay (or better yet, any good junk shop) for an old Mac serial port switch that doesn't do any automatic/electronic switching (something like this, NOT something like this). They should work as long as you avoid using really long cables. Also watch out for cables that do not have every pin wired straight through (such as Mac-to-DB-25 or null-modem cables).

[Fudoh]

1. I use an Extron with a nasty custom 4BNC-to-MiniDIN-8 adaptor.

yeah, you shouldn't do that. Use a BNC to VGA breakout cable and then a VGA to Mini-Din8 cable.

¿What source gave you that?

a bunch of component to HDMI converters I'm just trying.

[jdubs]

Thanks fellas! As a cheap solution...how about one of these?:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Din-8-Mini ... 635wt_1141

coupled with a cheap cable on the output:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MD8-Mini-Din-8- ... 830wt_1399

Then, you would "just" need custom cables from you consoles, terminating in mini din 8 connectors. Would this work?

-Jim

[jdubs]

1) Be nice if someone could try this and confirm, I believe a Micomsoft engineer said it should work.

Man, I would love confirmation on this. Anyone have a Dreamcast?

2) Haha no, you'll need to use a SCART switch and a SCART to JP21 adapter.

Its never easy!

-Jim

[Artemio]

Man, I would love confirmation on this. Anyone have a Dreamcast?

I have both a Dreamcast and a Naomi. I haven't tried the Naomi, but the Dreamcast works perfectly via RGB21, VGA and RGBs through the VGA box (done with the mod to the VGA box).

I've never used the Naomi on it, will test it tonight.

[Rock Man]

Hey guys this thing got a ohm resistor setting or what?

[Artemio]

Hey guys this thing got a ohm resistor setting or what?

No that I know about, I've been using an external RGB-21 male to female with the resistors in it.

[jdubs]

Man, I would love confirmation on this. Anyone have a Dreamcast?

I have both a Dreamcast and a Naomi. I haven't tried the Naomi, but the Dreamcast works perfectly via RGB21, VGA and RGBs through the VGA box (done with the mod to the VGA box).

I've never used the Naomi on it, will test it tonight.

Is your Dreamcast still outputting 31hz, though? What kind of vga box mod?

-Jim

[Artemio]

Is your Dreamcast still outputting 31hz, though? What kind of vga box mod?
-Jim

It has a switch and outputs both. This was requested by a user of the 240p Test Suite who had his modded and the suite didn't seem to work with the VGA box modded to 15khz, so I modded mine to confirm and debug it.

Here's the mod: http://forum.arcadeotaku.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1870 (you might need to register if you are not a member of AO, not sure if it shows otherwise)

[jdubs]

Is your Dreamcast still outputting 31hz, though? What kind of vga box mod?
-Jim

It has a switch and outputs both. This was requested by a user of the 240p Test Suite who had his modded and the suite didn't seem to work with the VGA box modded to 15khz, so I modded mine to confirm and debug it.

Here's the mod: http://forum.arcadeotaku.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1870 (you might need to register if you are not a member of AO, not sure if it shows otherwise)

Ok, so 15khz output. Have you tried 31khz output feeding the Framemeister?

-Jim

[jdubs]

Thanks fellas! As a cheap solution...how about one of these?:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Din-8-Mini ... 635wt_1141

coupled with a cheap cable on the output:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MD8-Mini-Din-8- ... 830wt_1399

Then, you would "just" need custom cables from you consoles, terminating in mini din 8 connectors. Would this work?

-Jim

Actually, maybe its easier than I thought. Just use a scart switcher. All consoles plug into the scart switcher via off-the-shelf cabling. The only custom'ish cable would need to be the scart output to mini din 8 of the Framemeister.

Any good scart switchers out there?

-Jim

[Yamato]

the Dreamcast works perfectly via RGB21, VGA and RGBs through the VGA box (done with the mod to the VGA box).

That sounds great! I also have a Dreamcast VGA box which outputs both 31khz and 15khz, but I'm still looking for a proper cable to connect the VGA box with the XRGB mini's RGB in (VGA to RGBs/EU Scart). It would be nice if there was also a stereo chinch on the VGA side so you can have the sound signal on the Scart plug too.

Do you have any suggestions where I can get such an adapter cable or a similar one which works with the Dreamcast/Framemeister?

Unfortunately, Moosmann couldn't build that cable by now and he seems to be busy getting the right parts / testing the stuff.

Best regards
Yamato

[BuckoA51]

Any good scart switchers out there?

Ah hah, site plug opportunity incoming! http://www.videogameperfection.com/av-g ... h-roundup/

Also lots of discussion on here about them too.

but I'm still looking for a proper cable to connect the VGA box with the XRGB mini's RGB in (VGA to RGBs/EU Scart). It would be nice if there was also a stereo chinch on the VGA side so you can have the sound signal on the Scart plug too.

Doesn't ArcadeForge's UMSA do that? http://wp1114205.wp150.webpack.hosteuro ... p?cPath=15

[Konsolkongen]

I have both a Dreamcast and a Naomi. I haven't tried the Naomi, but the Dreamcast works perfectly via RGB21, VGA and RGBs through the VGA box (done with the mod to the VGA box).

I've never used the Naomi on it, will test it tonight.

Did you have a Gefen VGA to DVI Scaler as well? Does the VGA on the Framemeister even compare to the picture quality of the Gefen?

[Fudoh]

Does the VGA on the Framemeister even compare to the picture quality of the Gefen?

yes, it does. But the more important question: weren't you defending the Mini's quality on 480p upscaling to the extend where you said, that it does even reach the Optoma's upscaling with the PS2 ?

[Konsolkongen]

Yes when using Smart X2 in 1080p and the GAME scaling-preset. But then you would have to zoom the image using yet another scaler, like the EDGE. Once Micomsoft gets themself together and fixes the scanline thickness in 1080p smart x2 then I'm considering doing that for all my sources.

The ringing added once you start messing with the scaling sliders makes the Gefen a much better choise at the moment.

[Fudoh]

I disagree! The game scaling preset never looks any good for 480i or 480p material, not even in Smart x2 mode - the vertical scaling is fine tuned for 240p in game preset. You have to adjust the vertical scaling slider. There are settings which introduce ringing, that's right, but not all of them and mainly for 240p sources and not for 480p material. Once find the proper setting you get nice scaling for 480p sources. Smart x2 isn't even neccessary, unless you want to use the scanline feature with this kind of content.

The Gefen is still a nice for choice for VGA-only sources, but you run into 15khz-only games on the DC once in a while and the Mini allows you run 15khz RGB and 31khz VGA through the same line, so it's perfectly easy to setup.

[Artemio]

Is your Dreamcast still outputting 31hz, though? What kind of vga box mod?
-Jim

It has a switch and outputs both. This was requested by a user of the 240p Test Suite who had his modded and the suite didn't seem to work with the VGA box modded to 15khz, so I modded mine to confirm and debug it.

Here's the mod: http://forum.arcadeotaku.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1870 (you might need to register if you are not a member of AO, not sure if it shows otherwise)

Ok, so 15khz output. Have you tried 31khz output feeding the Framemeister?

-Jim

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I had only tested the Dreamcast and it works in 31khz mode.

Just tested the Naomi with my super gun, using a Capcom I/O board and 31khz though the JAMMA Edge. As expected, it works, the mini sees 720x486p RGB.

[Konsolkongen]

I disagree! The game scaling preset never looks any good for 480i or 480p material, not even in Smart x2 mode - the vertical scaling is fine tuned for 240p in game preset. You have to adjust the vertical scaling slider. There are settings which introduce ringing, that's right, but not all of them and mainly for 240p sources and not for 480p material. Once find the proper setting you get nice scaling for 480p sources. Smart x2 isn't even neccessary, unless you want to use the scanline feature with this kind of content.

That's not my experience. 480p from PS2 and even Wii looks perfect when doing like I said.

I can test it out later and if I can manage to get some good pictures I'll post them too.

[Konsolkongen]

I managed to take some decent pictures with my phone.

This was done after a reset of the Mini (just updated to 1.07A). I used the PS2 version of Guilty Gear Isuka in 480p.

1080p, Normal2, Sharpness=1, H_Scaler=6, V_Scaler=5:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00599.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00604.jpg

1080p, Smart_X2, Sharpness=1, H_Scaler=6, V_Scaler=6:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00592.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00595.jpg

Follow the links for bigger images.

I'd say the difference is HUGE!. Aside from the oversaturated red colors the images using my settings are pretty much perfect. But just to clarify "1080p, Normal2, Sharpness=1, H_Scaler=6, V_Scaler=5:" is somewhere along the lines of your settings for 480p, right?

[jdubs]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I had only tested the Dreamcast and it works in 31khz mode.

Just tested the Naomi with my super gun, using a Capcom I/O board and 31khz though the JAMMA Edge. As expected, it works, the mini sees 720x486p RGB.

Got it now...thanks! You weren't being unclear...I was just being dense!

I actually didn't know that the 31khz signal was passed via the jamma edge. I thought it was only available on the vga output.

-Jim

[Artemio]

I actually didn't know that the 31khz signal was passed via the jamma edge. I thought it was only available on the vga output.

-Jim

Yes, it is passed through if you have the VGA cable plugged into the Capcom I/O board. Didn't try it directly but should work too.

[jdubs]

I actually didn't know that the 31khz signal was passed via the jamma edge. I thought it was only available on the vga output.

-Jim

Yes, it is passed through if you have the VGA cable plugged into the Capcom I/O board. Didn't try it directly but should work too.

Nice! Going VGA out from the Naomi to the Capcom I/O and out of there via the jamma edge connector means that the Capcom I/O must be doing some sort of sync combining to turn the RGBHV (vga) signal into RGBS (perfect for the Framemeister)...nice!

-Jim

[jdubs]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I had only tested the Dreamcast and it works in 31khz mode.

Just tested the Naomi with my super gun, using a Capcom I/O board and 31khz though the JAMMA Edge. As expected, it works, the mini sees 720x486p RGB.

Wouldn't you expect the Framemeister to see 640 x 480p, though?

-Jim

[Fudoh]

The DC does not output 640x480, but 720x480 with an active area of 640x480. That's why most TVs can't properly resolve the complete resolution. The Mini is correct in seeing the resolution with 720 pixels in width.

[jdubs]

The DC does not output 640x480, but 720x480 with an active area of 640x480. That's why most TVs can't properly resolve the complete resolution. The Mini is correct in seeing the resolution with 720 pixels in width.

Did you get this same result from the Naomi's 31khz jamma edge output?

-Jim

[Fudoh]

I'd say the difference is HUGE!. Aside from the oversaturated red colors the images using my settings are pretty much perfect. But just to clarify "1080p, Normal2, Sharpness=1, H_Scaler=6, V_Scaler=5:" is somewhere along the lines of your settings for 480p, right?

you're right, the differences are huge. I'll do some comparison shots as well. Sharpness 1 is complete no-go for me. It's acceptable for 240p content on 1080p output, but for everything else it introduces a gleamy/waxy look to all the edges which I absolutely can't stand. I think that V_SCALER 6 might be acceptable for 480p 2D titles, but it's a killer when you run 3D titles. It reduces the vertical resolution to less as it should. I'm not a fan of H_SCALER 6 either as it gets you those scaling/interpolation errors on all dark vertical edges. I can see it your screenshots as well and I hate it.... It's a bit hard to describe, but I've really spent hours in tuning the Mini to various 480p PS2 titles. I'll post some screenshots and you'll see what I mean - especially with the vertical resolution loss with the V_SCALER setting.

But hey, I'm not complaining. I just found it a bit weird that you questioned the Mini's performance on 480p, when you sounded happy with the results earlier on. I like the VXP's scaling (Optoma, Radiance, Crystalio) way better than the Mini's scaling, but I think I prefer the Mini's flexibility to the Gefen

[Konsolkongen]

When you do post your pictures, would you be kind to write your settings for both 2D and 3D games as well so I can try them myself?