Are some western shmup players lazy when it comes to shmups?

cigsthecat · Post by **cigsthecat** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:29 am

So something is only worthwhile if you can get paid for it.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:37 am

sethsez wrote:It implies that shmups are more important than they actually are

I don't think the original poster is referring to non-fans not caring at all about shooters, but fans who don't try at all. It doesn't take an abnormal amount of devotion to be good at shooters. No more time for one game than it would take to clear a regular RPG. 3-5 separate games a year is a modest diversion.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:58 am

Look, let me put it this way: if I work at something, I want to get something out of it. Nobody works for the hell of it... there needs to be a payoff, which doesn't have to mean money. At work, I work because I get paid. At school, I read things I might not otherwise be interested in because it makes me a more well-rounded, knowledgeable person. At home, I work on Gradius games once in a while because I get enjoyment from becoming better at them.

These are all, in some way, worthwhile to me, personally.

However, while the former two will have applications elsewhere, the time I spend on gaming will not. It doesn't advance me as a person. It is, again, pure entertainment. There's nothing wrong with pure entertainment, but there's also nothing inherantly beneficial, either. The only value it has is the enjoyment I get out of it.

Now, I'm going to ask you a question. If someone doesn't want to spend time doing something that they don't enjoy, which doesn't have any value outside of possible enjoyment, would you classify them as lazy? Am I lazy for not spending hours making a dead-on Klingon costume? Are you lazy for not being amazing at ping pong?

Getting a job is something people do because it's pretty much a requirement of living in modern society. Exercising is something people do, even if they don't enjoy it, because they want to get in better shape. These are forms of work that have a real, obvious payoff. However, there is no real, obvious payoff to pure entertainment beyond, well, being entertained. So if playing 100 hours of Ikaruga doesn't entertain someone, they're not lazy for refusing to do so. There's simply no payoff to work for.

EDIT:

Rob wrote:I don't think the original poster is referring to non-fans not caring at all about shooters, but fans who don't try at all. It doesn't take an abnormal amount of devotion to be good at shooters. No more time for one game than it would take to clear a regular RPG. 3-5 separate games a year is a modest diversion.

Right, but even there, it's the same thing. If someone doesn't enjoy the 50 hours it takes to get good at a shooter, then is it worth the effort? The people who get really good at shooters tend to also enjoy the process of getting good at them. I know I enjoy playing DG over and over and over, but I never play, say, Mars Matrix as anything but a lark, because the system just doesn't appeal to me enough.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:03 pm

sethsez wrote:
You know what does irritate the living hell out of me, though? People who think they're superior because they're good at shmups. Or can kick anyone's ass in Counter-Strike. Or can complete Resident Evil 2 in under and hour and a half.

If someone devotes their life to a musical instrument, there's a good chance they could make a career out of it. That practice will pay off. It's not just wasted time. Someone who's really good at a shooter can do fuck all with this skill they've built. If they have fun doing it, then great! Have fun doing it. I know I have. But I don't try to convince myself that it's somehow bettering me. It isn't. It's 100% pure entertainment. Outside of the sense of satisfaction I get when I beat my old high score, I've gained absolutely nothing that improves me or sets me up for better things.

Then again, who brags rights on this forum?Can you make the names of the ones who beat their chests and say "omg n00bz i bring you the pwn i've got the m4d l33t skillz?" Let me guess, the ones who do that have laughable scores, too. Let's be honest, some scores are quite good here, but no one of the top scores has an air of superiority (or, in case, please make names, as much as it can sound as delation. Then again:

Why are you here? Personally i find much more satisfaction in being a good shmupper than a good linguist. Right nowi'm stuck in a place full of nuts who mostly conceive science as a way to best people.

Beside that, most of the research done is about finding out a small new thing and explain it in the current paradigm.This meanst that, out of the say, 60 hours behind a work, 36 are spent in reading someone else's papers or collecting datas. This is boring and, often, unchallenging, as it is far more stimulating to work by yourself in discovering new things, or working with someone else. Alas, though, i'm not a WASP and i don't find morally acceptable to fuck up my life to get money and best people in such a psychotic enviroment.

In case no one told you, your presence here marks as a nerd who spends time in useless things as hobbies.You need to advance yourself in much constructive ways like, say, doing the same boring work every day, or see shitty tv or read the same plot over and over again, or whatever. Technically speaking, by playing games you also solve the same problems over and over again, with the difference that *sometimes*, they provide rules that you didn't knew before and make you think in different ways.

Personally, i have to nerd pride nor nerd shame.However, if i spent years playing the same old games over and over again (including, by the way, Go and Backgammon) it's because i like the chance to find out new combinations or new approaches. Shmups don't really work in a different way, they're still games.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:24 pm

Randorama wrote:Then again, who brags rights on this forum?Can you make the names of the ones who beat their chests and say "omg n00bz i bring you the pwn i've got the m4d l33t skillz?"

I hate to bring this back up, but in my experience, at least, it's not so much bragging about one's own abilities or practices that occurs on a regular basis, but rather the deriding of others, not just as gamers, but as people, because they're not as devoted to the games they play (or simply have preferences different than yours). No matter how many questions you ask to try to understand a game better, you "refuse to understand, and then complain about how hard the game is." No matter how many times you maintain that you don't care how others play their games, you're "closed-minded" and "stuck in a fantasy world, time to wake up!"

One's own chest rarely gets beaten around here, at least directly, but slice it any way you want, non-hardcore gamers who express views which the hardcore don't like, even if they're just personal opinions with nothing else attached to them, are derided as not only inferior gamers but lesser beings by those who supposedly "get it."

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:35 pm

BulletMagnet wrote: I hate to bring this back up, but in my experience, at least, it's not so much bragging about one's own abilities or practices that occurs on a regular basis, but rather the deriding of others, not just as gamers, but as people, because they're not as devoted to the games they play (or simply have preferences different than yours).

Again, i claim that the ones who spend their time protesting that you're not omg hardc00rz are, well, fucking n00bz. Or, well, the ones who act like the dedicated to the holy cause of scoring do so because they're proving their new, weak identity by using it as a club against others.Basic sociology 1.01, i'd add, not that everyone should that, of course.

No matter how many questions you ask to try to understand a game better, you "refuse to understand, and then complain about how hard the game is." No matter how many times you maintain that you don't care how others play their games, you're "closed-minded" and "stuck in a fantasy world, time to wake up!"

...do you still think that there's the need for commandments and rank is a perversion against nature, by the way? Of course, if you tell me " blah!" about an engine by pointing it *facts* and not false things about it that you don't like, where's the point? I'd rather go to the dentist than play Ikaruga or DOJ, and they're still masterpieces. It does happen that no one forces to like well-executed things.

One's own chest rarely gets beaten around here, at least directly, but slice it any way you want, non-hardcore gamers who express views which the hardcore don't like, even if they're just personal opinions with nothing else attached to them, are derided as not only inferior gamers but lesser beings by those who supposedly "get it."

Maybe you mean something more specific: there are some people who rave about games being forced to adhere their their mental standards, and on the other side of the fences, there are the wannabe-hardcore who dis the other tribe with their pretense to conquer the territory. Frankly, both can go to hell, for all i care. Beside that, personal opinions that are unrelated to facts are easily transformed to prejudices, no? It would be a serious improvement to understand that yes, an engine works flawlessly even if you can't enjoy it. It would be a BIG step in the growth of an individual, to accept that their tastes aren't the measure of the world, and that learning and improving can be fun.

Oh, of course, this is impossible to be obtained by playing games, as the WASP paradigm says clearly that only brainwashing activities and reactionary cultural phenomena can give you the light. And of course, any thinking outside this tiny box is prebubescent nonsense...that's why David Hume played BackGammon, i bet.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:35 pm

Randorama wrote:your presence here marks as a nerd who spends time in useless things as hobbies.

And I've admitted as such several times. I just don't think I'm a better person than most for it. Playing videogames is a way to entertain oneself, not a measure of a person's worth.

Again, i claim that the ones who spend their time protesting that you're not omg hardc00rz are, well, fucking n00bz. Or, well, the ones who act like the dedicated to the holy cause of scoring do so because they're proving their new, weak identity by using it as a club against others.Basic sociology 1.01, i'd add, not that everyone should that, of course.

Well, yes. The ones who just discovered something tend to be the most defensive of it. Ikaruga spawned a whole lot of assholes, most of whom have since mellowed out and realized that, yes, it's still just a game genre and not a way of life. I haven't seen nearly as many people who've been playing shooters since Space Invaders who get so assholish about them.

Maybe you mean something more specific: there are some people who rave about games being forced to adhere their their mental standards, and on the other side of the fences, there are the wannabe-hardcore who dis the other tribe with their pretense to conquer the territory. Frankly, both can go to hell, for all i care.

And these are the only groups I'm talking about. Frankly, if someone spends most of their time playing a game, I don't give a shit as long as they still realize that it's just a game. Once it becomes a way of life, or a significant factor of their personal identity, it just gets annoying. It's the same with music... I knew an indie rock asshole who refused to talk to someone if they admitted liking Tool, because "there are so many better bands out there, anyone who likes Tool must be an idiot." I stopped hanging out with him soon after.

Beside that, personal opinions that are unrelated to facts are easily transformed to prejudices, no? It would be a serious improvement to understand that yes, an engine works flawlessly even if you can't enjoy it. It would be a BIG step in the growth of an individual, to accept that their tastes aren't the measure of the world, and that learning and improving can be fun.

None of us are perfect in this regard. Sometimes, if we dislike something enough, we say it just sucks. Now, I know Garegga is extremely polished, but I just absolutely do not enjoy it. Likewise, how do you react to an extremely polished FPShite

? I'm not saying it's right, because it isn't, but it's something everyone does to an extent.

And yeah, learning and improving can be fun, but you have to enjoy the thing to begin with. I tried to learn cello, piano, trumpet, and guitar. I stuck with the cello because I enjoyed learning it much, much more than the others. It's certainly no less work, but it's much more fulfilling for me.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:05 pm

[quotr]
Well, yes. The ones who just discovered something tend to be the most defensive of it. Ikaruga spawned a whole lot of assholes, most of whom have since mellowed out and realized that, yes, it's still just a game genre and not a way of life. I haven't seen nearly as many people who've been playing shooters since Space Invaders who get so assholish about them.
[/quote]

It also has spawned some damn competent players, problem is: it's Treasure, and a good chunk of those assholes were the same who believed into the church of Treasure.The amount of people who could place Ikaruga at the top of a chart of one shmup is still amazing.Beside that, shmups are a way of life once you spend ages playing the various titles of the genre, not by raving about the mysticism of Ying and Yang in said title (which is still a brilliant and taitoish way to blend the design and game mechanics). That's some ridicolous teenager pseudointellectualism!

I don't give a shit as long as they still realize that it's just a game. Once it becomes a way of life, or a significant factor of their personal identity, it just gets annoying. It's the same with music... I knew an indie rock asshole who refused to talk to someone if they admitted liking Tool, because "there are so many better bands out there, anyone who likes Tool must be an idiot." I stopped hanging out with him soon after.

Tool? At any case, you may perhaps mean: once a way of life, silly or serious as it may be, becomes a reason for irrational hate-mongering, it's time to take the axe. I know a lot of passionate catholics who would never ever annoy me about their faith, but they're really exemplar in their way of life.

None of us are perfect in this regard. Sometimes, if we dislike something enough, we say it just sucks. Now, I know Garegga is extremely polished, but I just absolutely do not enjoy it. Likewise, how do you react to an extremely polished FPShite ? I'm not saying it's right, because it isn't, but it's something everyone does to an extent.

Like i react to Ikaruga, more or less. I'm relatively serious about this, i wouldn't have sex with a woman which is perfect but that isn't inspiring (just to make my claim more bold, i'd add). Or well, i never have been able to learn Chess, seriously, and who would question their "pure perfection"?

And yeah, learning and improving can be fun, but you have to enjoy the thing to begin with. I tried to learn cello, piano, trumpet, and guitar. I stuck with the cello because I enjoyed learning it much, much more than the others. It's certainly no less work, but it's much more fulfilling for me.

The kind of stimulations to your brain that learning cello can obtain, from a technical point of view, isn't too different than the ones from learning to play well shmups. They are probably simpler (else, you would master games in a too long span of time, and wouldn't buy the new ones, as one option). The only constraint in frowning upon games is social, and i can easily look with arrogance on social constraints

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:33 pm

Learning to play a musical instrument allows for the ability to create something (in this case, music). Playing a game very well does not, outside of a very small, arguable margin (creating new strategies and such). I'd compare learning an instrument to learning how to program a game, rather than learning how to play one. Someone who learns an instrument but never does anything creative with that ability is wasting it, in my opinion. Then again, I tend to look at an instrument as a means to an end, not the end itself.

And yes, you're right. I was saying that once a hobby becomes a justification for mocking other people, it's been taken too far. Whether it's the fashionista who mocks anyone who buys less than Gucci, the indie lover who hates people who've never heard of Xiu Xiu, the guitarist who scoffs at anybody who can't play like Vai, or the shmup player who looks down his nose at those who only play for 20 hours before moving on, all have the distinction of taking a hobby and making it a war cry.

Super Glob · Post by **Super Glob** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:38 pm

sethsez wrote:Learning to play a musical instrument allows for the ability to create something (in this case, music). .

I could create music before I learned to play any instruments.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:48 pm

Well, I could come up with stories before I could write, but it didn't do much good.

But yeah, I get your point. Still, I tend to think the ability to play an instrument helps in writing music just as the ability to write helps in creating a story. A more intimate knowledge of the delivery allows for a better song or story. I feel the same way about games, too... someone who doesn't know a thing about code doesn't have much of a place designing games, in my opinion.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:57 pm

sethsez wrote: Right, but even there, it's the same thing. If someone doesn't enjoy the 50 hours it takes to get good at a shooter, then is it worth the effort?

If a person can't play a single shooter for 50 hours they wouldn't be posting on this forum.

(aside from dave)

Davey · Post by **Davey** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:34 pm

Rob wrote:If a person can't play a single shooter for 50 hours they wouldn't be posting on this forum.

You obviously don't read Rando's rants.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:10 am

sethsez wrote:Learning to play a musical instrument allows for the ability to create something (in this case, music). Playing a game very well does not, outside of a very small, arguable margin (creating new strategies and such). I'd compare learning an instrument to learning how to program a game, rather than learning how to play one. Someone who learns an instrument but never does anything creative with that ability is wasting it, in my opinion. Then again, I tend to look at an instrument as a means to an end, not the end itself.

Shmups are more rigid in this regard, but you can still create your own style. Aside that, not many compose their own music.Even when you improvise and create, though, you're bound to rules. Again, musical instruments aren't DESIGNED with the idea of lasting until the next, new instrument version.

And yes, you're right. I was saying that once a hobby becomes a justification for mocking other people, it's been taken too far. Whether it's the fashionista who mocks anyone who buys less than Gucci, the indie lover who hates people who've never heard of Xiu Xiu, the guitarist who scoffs at anybody who can't play like Vai, or the shmup player who looks down his nose at those who only play for 20 hours before moving on, all have the distinction of taking a hobby and making it a war cry.

And many who flame around don't play more than 20 hours, i'd addFashionista, though, is an hilarious mangling of my first language

Btw Rob, your optimisim is appalling, i'd say...did you remember the "which one is the shmup you played the most?" With people saying "omg an entire hour?!"... Davey knows -_-;

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:25 am

Randorama wrote:Again, i claim that the ones who spend their time protesting that you're not omg hardc00rz are, well, fucking n00bz.

Perhaps there was some hidden message in those old closed topics which I didn't pick up on, but this is certainly new to me...in any event, it's welcome, and I'll leave it at that...

...do you still think that there's the need for commandments...

You're still somehow bothered by those things? I think you're the only person on this entire site, me included, who ever took them particularly seriously.

...and rank is a perversion against nature, by the way? Of course, if you tell me " blah!" about an engine by pointing it *facts* and not false things about it that you don't like, where's the point? I'd rather go to the dentist than play Ikaruga or DOJ, and they're still masterpieces. It does happen that no one forces to like well-executed things.

Obviously my opinion on that has changed since then, but frankly, that's mainly because some others actually took the time to explain stuff to me when I asked, rather than assuming that I had some kind of sinister hidden agenda and wasn't worth addressing...but enough of that. As for regarding something as "perfect" or a "masterpiece," it seems like a somewhat broad definition...not every game, even in a single genre, is geared towards the same type of player, and as such aspects of a game which some adore, others will despise, both sides for "factual" and "logical" reasons. Does the latter group have to say that the game is "perfect" just because the former group thinks so, or should they be free to label the things which turn them away as "weaknesses," in their opinion only, if they can explain capably why they feel this way?

Beside that, personal opinions that are unrelated to facts are easily transformed to prejudices, no? It would be a serious improvement to understand that yes, an engine works flawlessly even if you can't enjoy it. It would be a BIG step in the growth of an individual, to accept that their tastes aren't the measure of the world, and that learning and improving can be fun.

I would venture to say that few opinions around here are "unrelated to facts," or, if they are, they can be easily remedied by those who have been here longer, if the latter have a little bit of patience...nor do I think that many (if any) around here "hate learning and improving." You asked earlier for someone to "point out names" regarding an accusation...I, in turn, would definitely like to see some hard evidence of the rumored hordes of users around here who "don't want to learn how things work, stubbornly refuse to do so, and then complain about the games they refuse to understand." And as for those who refuse to acknowledge anyone's tastes but their own, I see few "casual" players with that kind of attitude, to be frank...

Oh, of course, this is impossible to be obtained by playing games, as the WASP paradigm says clearly that only brainwashing activities and reactionary cultural phenomena can give you the light. And of course, any thinking outside this tiny box is prebubescent nonsense...

I really wonder how in the world material like this somehow gets brought into topics about shmups..."WASP paradigm?" Come on. Learning the values of a work ethic through video games? I agree that said games are, essentially, more than most people think of them, to a point, but calling video games superior to the fine arts, and deriding the latter as "brainwashing activities," sounds more like wildly attempting to justify one's own unusual obsession than actually having a point to make.

In any event, to return to my original statement, which was never really addressed, for someone to throw up his hands and say "What? More skilled players condescending to less-skilled ones? What EVER are you talking about?" seems like either outright denial or very selective memory to me.

Post by **Icarus** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:10 am

MUST... RESIST... URGE TO POST REPLY... ... ...

...

Oh bugger it.

BulletMagnet wrote:You asked earlier for someone to "point out names" regarding an accusation...I, in turn, would definitely like to see some hard evidence of the rumored hordes of users around here who "don't want to learn how things work, stubbornly refuse to do so, and then complain about the games they refuse to understand."

You only need to read all those locked threads that related to playing for score vs playing for fun, or all the threads that criticise the gameplay systems of particular *unnamed* games, or those that start off quite civil, and then turn into scathing flamewars based on opinion rather than fact.

Like this one.

While I'm finding this discussion quite interesting, I think I'll stay out of it this time ^_-

BulletMagnet wrote:...or should they be free to label the things which turn them away as "weaknesses," in their opinion only, if they can explain capably why they feel this way?

Wars are started over conflict of opinions and beliefs. And most of the arguments I've seen start by the comment "I hate [insert topic here] because I say so, I am right, and everyone else is wrong".

BulletMagnet wrote:Come on. Learning the values of a work ethic through video games? I agree that said games are, essentially, more than most people think of them, to a point, but calling video games superior to the fine arts, and deriding the latter as "brainwashing activities," sounds more like wildly attempting to justify one's own unusual obsession than actually having a point to make.

Being good at any interest requires dedication. That skill is never taught to you, you learn it on your own.
I don't think games are superior to the fine arts, but as a graphic artist/interactive designer in training, I can look at the better games as an exemplary piece of design, in graphic styling (I love the art styling in Yoshi's Island), in storytelling (I used to love the better RPGs for that), for immersing a player so much that they can sometimes invoke emotional reactions (I was one of the many that shed a tear when Sephiroth murdered Aeris, admittedly) and in interactive design (I love playing with good interfaces, like the menu systems in Metroid Prime and Echoes).

If anything, I find good game design can be equal to fine art.
Yes, I love games. I enjoy playing them, and I like to play them well. I guess I'm a freak, then.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:47 am

sethsez wrote:If you think people need to aside two hours a day (or, likely, more) for years solely to get better at a single videogame, you need some perspective. As has already been mentioned, Japan doesn't consider these people to be their finest citizens. They're the equivalent of the jackasses who live on World of Warcraft and have every single rare item. The only people who are impressed are other MMORPG dorks. Everyone else just wishes they'd take a goddamn shower.

This is so laughable because it has absolutely no basis in reality and was obviously just made up by yourself. FYI, pro gamers in Japan and Korea often have almost idol-like status. I remember (when I lived in japan a few years ago) seeing the top scorer at "typing of the dead" on a prime-time gameshow in Japan competing against an amatuer and getting a standing ovation when he won. I mean, come on, they sell superplay DVDs in Japan with the players listed like Hollywood actors, and people buy them up quickly for crazy prices ($50+ per DVD often). They don't sell those in the US or Europe, perhaps because not many would buy them.

As for the amount of time Japanese pro-gamers play, here's an example : ISO said in an interview he played 80 hours to get good at Chapter 3 in ikaruga (where good = the best score in the world). The pro gamers don't actually play that much.They don't play 20 hours a day or whatever. Many only play in the arcades, and not every day. WIZ got 29+mil in Ikaruga after about a month after the arcade version of ikaruga was released. Keep in mind he had to go to an arcade when he could, spend his own money on the arcade machine, and develop his own strats from scratch. I spent over 400 hours over 2 years playing ikaruga at home mainly studying other people's strats (though I did develop a few of my own) and I only hit 29.5mil. some people just have better skills. I'm not saying you have to be Japanese to be the best either (as shown by many of the chapter score records in Ikaruga, which are held by westerners like Xer Xian, lpm, rjpageuk, and our very own CVM).

You need to stop making assumptions based on your inaccurate worldview, Seth.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:53 am

The guy who got the top score in Pac-Mac was on the news and in magazines like Time and Newsweek, and Fatal1ty pretty much makes a living on playing games and endorsing shit. These are not the average "hardcore gamers."

Additionally:

Dandy J wrote:About VF players:

"You'll realize that the best players here live VF, they don't have real jobs, part timers at best, kind of the dregs of society. That's what it takes to become the best in the world, giving up everything."

If you live a normal life, try not to worry too much about the absolute best Japanese players.

Unless, of course, this is completely and utterly inaccurate, but from everything else I've read on the subject, it isn't.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:03 am

sethsez wrote:The guy who got the top score in Pac-Mac was on the news and in magazines like Time and Newsweek,

Yeah but how many Americans would shell out $50 for a DVD replay of his top score? Maybe 1? US publications view such people as random curiosities worthy of a blurb in the Guiness book of world records, but not much more. The proof is in your reply--you can't even remember the guy's name with the Pac-man record! In Asia pro-gamers have much more lasting and prominent status.

Dandy J wrote:About VF players:

"You'll realize that the best players here live VF, they don't have real jobs, part timers at best, kind of the dregs of society. That's what it takes to become the best in the world, giving up everything."

Maybe that's true for US gamers (I really don't know), but I think it's unfair to say that about Japanese gamers in general. I've only talked with a few Japanese gamers I'd consider "pro", and they all had full or at least part-time (20+ hour/week) jobs and/or were going to college. They enjoyed games like anyone else but they also loved to travel, hang out with friends, and do other stuff. Labelling them all as bums who play games all day and don't take showers and are the dregs of society is just pure ignorance, nothing more.

MadSteelDarkness · Post by **MadSteelDarkness** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:07 am

Some humble advice, gentlemen (and ladies):

Live and let live.

Do what you're going to do, and let other people do what they're going to do, without criticism or derision.

Or not.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:20 am

twe wrote:Yeah but how many Americans would shell out $50 for a DVD replay of his top score? Maybe 1? US publications view such people as random curiosities worthy of a blurb in the Guiness book of world records, but not much more. In Asia pro-gamers have much more lasting and prominent status.

Depends on how you look at it. Once again, top FPS players have been able to make a decent living off of endorsing gaming shit. Not nearly as much mainstream media coverage, but they make a decent amount of money. And I don't think anybody would pay $50 for a Pac-Man replay DVD, for two reasons:

1) It would be boring as shit, since Pac-Man isn't particularly interesting to watch someone else play (and because it would be amazingly long), and

2) People here aren't accustomed to paying $50 for a DVD in general. You can't really compare this and say that Asia is willing to pay more for a replay DVD, because they have a completely different price threshold regarding DVDs and CDs. What's more important is how much above regular price they're willing to pay, and I'd be more interested to hear about that.

Would people buy superplay DVDs in America? I don't know. A series using the Halo engine has managed to take off in relative popularity, I've seen several speedrun sites selling DVDs, and the Halo 2 limited edition did very well, despite the only bonus being a DVD on the making of. Considering the hordes of CS kiddies out there, a DVD with strategies from the best players would probably sell very well. Nobody's bothered to try yet, though.

Regardless, from Japanese people I've talked to (both exchange students from there, going to there, and people who live there now), it sounds like you're romanticizing things a bit. Obviously I haven't been there so I don't have the first hand knowledge that you do, but you're the only person I've heard say that good DOJ players are treated like national heroes. The impression I've always gotten from various people is that the discrepancy is similar to that of an adult who watches TV cartoon series: not looked down on nearly as much in Japan, but it still makes you kind of a dork.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:26 pm

Let's recap a few things: things that friends say may not be the holy truth, nor the scientifical one. If you talk with one italian guy and he tells you that no one eats pasta, because he doesn't care about this issue, he may be wrong. DVDs of games sell, not too much ( i know that the Ikaruga one was in the 5k range), but it's still not too bad, for the gaming sensation of 2002 (well, for the cult gaming sensation of 2002). People write a lot of bullshit about everything in Japan, fanzines are a huge phenomenon.
Instead of trying to justify their lack of willpower and desire to learn and become better, they resort to amazing feats of practice (you know, from the country of 18 hours of study a day, i'm not claiming that it's useful, just a lot).

Now, how many cretins here have posted brilliant comments against rank? Fact, game x has rank, the japanese players who wanted to master the game turned the engine upside down, i wonder how many have spent their time bitching agaisnt the said system. Result? Said games still have rank.Acting like a victim won't work. Bitching against rank won't work (and it's pretty stupid if you bitch against a system that's present in game you worship in another thread). The only thing that helps is understanding how the game works, and learn. If you don't like it because you don't appreciate the basic rules, fine, but no one gives you the right to bitch about your tastes being the measure of the world.

As most people here (i challenge you, BM, to find how many can claim to play a game more than 1 week after its pubblication, and there are people who spend thousands of dollars) just buy the fucking hype about new games and then flame because they can't contain their fanboystic enthusiasm for something they will forget after one week, talking about any kind of dedication can sound as exotic. Also, i still have to read a comment in which someone arguments rationally and logically about he doesn't like things. Unless you find things like "omg rank is a perversion to morality (uh?)" rational, in which case you'd need a serious reality check.

Fact is, and i like how no one seems to understand these plain words from yours truly, "fine arts" are overated exactly because their considered worthy in their most pedestrian aspects. I'd add that serious artistic creation (with music being very borderline, as it shares many features with any gaming processes) is closer to games (ruled-based interaction between rational agents in turns) than it seems. It's not a matter of superiority or inferiority, and frankly, i never made this inference (let's not even talk about this kind of stuff, which happens to be my work, casually...).

Finally, the mantra that there are some misterious players who seem to have god-like skills (and where are the scores) who talk about the poor li'l "omg why the games have changed, when i was i kid i reacted to bullets and i won (uh?), why i grew up, buuh, let's react" with arrogant tone...eh, the posers against the wimps. You can always re-read again some of the smartest comments on the issue, and find out how many of these fights float around this site. It's pointless to remember all the other unrelated or useless comments on the issue. Selections are excellent methods to find out what's pertinent and what's not.

Oh, and beside that, it may happen that your predestination can be shown even by being a shmup champion, who knows

At any case, i would add that..."would people buy superplay videos in western countries?" is better, i can understand Kagan, Rand and Huntington and so on, but let's be politically correct, kthx?

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:03 pm

Randorama wrote:Let's recap a few things: things that friends say may not be the holy truth, nor the scientifical one.

Things that message board members say aren't the holy truth either, so I'm not going to completely disregard or write off everything else I've heard from various people who've lived there on the basis of someone else's conflicting report. Of course, I'll still take it into consideration.

Fact, game x has rank, the japanese players who wanted to master the game turned the engine upside down

Important part bolded. If someone doesn't like the way a game plays, they're not going to want to master it. The Japanese gamers who don't like Garegga didn't bother to master it, either. This isn't a hard concept. People who bitch about Garegga aren't saying "I love it but it's too hard," they're saying "I don't enjoy this." You'll often find these same people playing games that are (or can be) just as difficult, if not moreso.

If you don't like it because you don't appreciate the basic rules, fine, but no one gives you the right to bitch about your tastes being the measure of the world.

And the same goes for you. If someone enjoys rank, fine, but that doesn't give them the right to demand justification from anyone who doesn't like you do

Also, i still have to read a comment in which someone arguments rationally and logically about he doesn't like things.

here. "Garegga's implementation of rank doesn't appeal to me" is a perfectly valid reason to not play it, even if Garegga's implementation of rank happens to be something you enjoy. Now, if someone's saying that Garegga is objectively awful, that's a different matter, but I honestly don't remember BM or anyone else who's been here for longer than a few days saying that.

At any case, i would add that..."would people buy superplay videos in western countries?" is better, i can understand Kagan, Rand and Huntington and so on, but let's be politically correct, kthx?

I don't think people in western countries would buy shmup replay videos, but I still think FPS (and possibly RTS) could do fairly well. The community is large enough and devoted enough to support them, but nobody's bothered to try (and, of course, replays are already available online for free, since it's much easier to create a free replay for Serious Sam than it is for a game that hasn't yet left the arcades, which would probably be a hurdle).

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:40 pm

sethsez wrote:
Fact, game x has rank, the japanese players who wanted to master the game turned the engine upside down
Important part bolded. If someone doesn't like the way a game plays, they're not going to want to master it. The Japanese gamers who don't like Garegga didn't bother to master it, either. This isn't a hard concept. People who bitch about Garegga aren't saying "I love it but it's too hard," they're saying "I don't enjoy this." You'll often find these same people playing games that are (or can be) just as difficult, if not moreso.

It is amazing though, that we're speaking of those ten persons or so that spend their time bitching about the games don't play by themselves and let them win, though. Which also happen to bitch about games are so unfair....they should be 18, though, on this forum, and not 10, i should count again, vs the 9 who brag rights they don't have (they tend to just plop up in threads, brag, and disappear). How many people can you count that say "i don't enjoy this BECAUSE OF X, Y AND Z FACTORS"?

quote]
And the same goes for you. If someone enjoys rank, fine, but that doesn't give them the right to demand justification from anyone who doesn't like you do

[/quote]

Oh, i swear, the amount of false inferences you do leads me to think that you're seriously crazy. I don't enjoy rank (not i despise it), nor i accept that people declare something perverse because they say so. Else, you should be burnt at the stake because at the bible thumpers and you haven't any right to protest. If you want to tell me about people about imposing their prejudices on others, you're clearly out of your mind.

Also, i still have to read a comment in which someone arguments rationally and logically about he doesn't like things.

here. "Garegga's implementation of rank doesn't appeal to me" is a perfectly valid reason to not play it, even if Garegga's implementation of rank happens to be something you enjoy. Now, if someone's saying that Garegga is objectively awful, that's a different matter, but I honestly don't remember BM or anyone else who's been here for longer than a few days saying that.

[/quote]

you're an extremely bad liar. Do you remember someone talking about how Garegga perverted the moralness of shmups? Do you need names? And beside that, shall we talk about commandments, about games being better without large chunks of their mechanics? Seriously, don't insult your intellingence, please.

I don't think people in western countries

That's the only questionable point corrected, incredible but true, "western countries" is a set that comprises other nations, and it's also true that, given some jokes floating on this forum, my prejudices against WASPs are quickly taking up shape...

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:49 pm

Randorama wrote:Do you remember someone talking about how Garegga perverted the moralness of shmups? Do you need names? And beside that, shall we talk about commandments

No, yes, that was a joke topic that only you took seriously for some reason, and the rest of your ranting about bible thumping, WASPs and perverse game mechanics or whatever has completely lost me.

MovingTarget · Post by **MovingTarget** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:59 pm

I wish I wasn't such a jack-of-all-trades kinda guy.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:05 am

Randorama wrote:(i challenge you, BM, to find how many can claim to play a game more than 1 week after its pubblication, and there are people who spend thousands of dollars)

As "casual" as I am, I suppose I can count myself as one of those people, seeing as when I put down money for something I don't plan on only playing it a few times...and seeing as I'm not the type to react particularly strongly to releases to begin with (to this day I have never pre-ordered a game in my life, shmup or non-shmup), I could only imagine that the "truly devoted" people would play stuff even more consistently than I do...I think you need just a slightly higher opinion of this community at large.

Fact is, and i like how no one seems to understand these plain words from yours truly, "fine arts" are overated exactly because their considered worthy in their most pedestrian aspects.

"Pedestrian aspects?" Such as...?

It's not a matter of superiority or inferiority, and frankly, i never made this inference...

Coulda fooled me...

Literature is far more pointless than videogames.Any game is far more stimulating to brain than any mass of words put together to explain the universe.Videogames, on the other hand, force you to reason in order to obtain a reward.

You mentioned "literature" specifically, but methinks that it certainly fits under the "fine arts..." why should a painting or the like be excluded from what you said above, and only literature assumed to fit the bill, so to speak? If nothing else, you never specified further.

(let's not even talk about this kind of stuff, which happens to be my work, casually...).

Honestly, I'd like to hear more about just how involved you are with stuff like this...

And beside that, shall we talk about commandments...

Even setting aside that you seem to have completely disregarded my blurb about this in my previous post, you've either forgotten or refused to acknowledge that (and I remember this VERY vividly) in my very first post on that very topic I stated that the "commandments" were only my personal opinion, and that I didn't intend for them to be taken seriously. Even with that on the table from the word "go," you launched into a (surprise!) semantics discourse of exactly what a "commandment" means according to the dictionary defintion, all the while completely ignoring the VERY direct disclaimer I had made at the very beginning. Who here, exactly, is the "bad liar?" For heaven's sake, that topic wasn't meant as a personal insult to all you stand for, get over it!

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:27 am

Almost 2000 posts later and BulletMagnet still can't live down the "commandments" topic. I think it's time to bury the hatchet on that one.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:13 pm

BulletMagnet wrote: I could only imagine that the "truly devoted" people would play stuff even more consistently than I do...I think you need just a slightly higher opinion of this community at large.

This "community" is made mainly but small sub-groups, and none of them is truly bigger than the others. There's one small group that i would label as "the fanboys"which spends time raving about new releases and graphics. Another group even smaller is the one of "the posers", who talk a lot about how hardcore they are and don't post scores. I don't like both, frankly. The rest is, obviously, open to discussion.

"Pedestrian aspects?" Such as...?

Watching instead of doing. When you do something, in arts, you're using your brain.Else, cerebral activity is very low.This is true of most actions, arts have slightly lower values.

Coulda fooled me...

Eh well, yes.

Literature is far more pointless than videogames.Any game is far more stimulating to brain than any mass of words put together to explain the universe.Videogames, on the other hand, force you to reason in order to obtain a reward.

You mentioned "literature" specifically, but methinks that it certainly fits under the "fine arts..." why should a painting or the like be excluded from what you said above, and only literature assumed to fit the bill, so to speak? If nothing else, you never specified further.

Literature or, reading a novel (or any other stories,in short: stuff that doesn't imply new knowledge) is following a a pretty abused path, so to speak.It's like watching tv, in this regard: no external stimuli except for the visual ones (but you're processing words instead of images, different hemisphere to be numbed down). Your cognitive system at some point literally go in standby mode, so to speak. If someone would pay me do that, i would make experiments about playing the same stage over and over again. Even with a higher treshold (body is forced to still move, but movements also become absolutely repetitive), it should have the same effect.

Honestly, I'd like to hear more about just how involved you are with stuff like this...

Graduate student in Linguistics (specialization in semantics) and master in cognitive sciences. I don't want to tell more details, i'm pretty reserved in this kind of things.

Even with that on the table from the word "go," you launched into a (surprise!) semantics discourse of exactly what a "commandment" means according to the dictionary defintion, all the while completely ignoring the VERY direct disclaimer I had made at the very beginning.

Sorry, but as you can guess, i take semantics seriously. Beside that, it's not the word itself, it's the reasoning that is disturbing: i argued more than once why, but in short, instead of preaching moral standards about things, why don't you just live and let live (especially when propaganda can't influence statesof thing)? Or: why don't you just accept rank? After all, it's all over, the current trend now is dynamic enemy sequence...

Oh and Sethsez, please: there's a link in the thread by Icarus on why Garegga instigates to all perversions in the world (including Tacos and Lasagne, i'd add).

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:06 pm

Another group even smaller is the one of "the posers", who talk a lot about how hardcore they are and don't post scores.

I rarely disagree with you, Rando, but...I've put hundreds of hours into a few specific non-shmup arcade games...and playing for score/1lc in those made them more enjoyable, I don't see why shmups would be any different, especially with experiences with them where I've made serious improvements...I've come close to a few 1cc's, gotten a few with weaksauce scores, but real life keeps interrupting me (times when I can't play AT ALL, people need to stop posting trollish 'LOL u have 2 much free tiem' remarks)....maybe other 'posers' are in the same boat?

Anyways, I guess playing for score is more an opinion than factually right or wrong...I still think people should try it before dissing it, thoe.