Are some western shmup players lazy when it comes to shmups?

[sethsez]

What science have you used, exactly? I mean, you keep using that word thinking it lends credence to your statements, but I've seen absolutely nothing to back up the supposed science behind what you're saying.

So by all means, explain the science of why you enjoy shooters. If possible, either include theories you're basing your conclusions on, or present a testable hypothesis. Links to articles published in scientific journals would be helpful, too.

[Randorama]

What science have you used, exactly? I mean, you keep using that word thinking it lends credence to your statements, but I've seen absolutely nothing to back up the supposed science behind what you're saying.

So by all means, explain the science of why you enjoy shooters. If possible, either include theories you're basing your conclusions on, or present a testable hypothesis.

Sorry, it's in my precedent post, the one with the numbered paragraphs.
Let's pretend you're not just trolling and...
Let me recap :

1. As all human beings, i like learning new things to increase my chances of survival.This means that i have a positive emotion (let's label it fun, i can't check any handbooks right now) whenever i'm successful at these types of tasks (Do you need proof for this?).This enjoyment isn't immediately fundamental to my survival, but more of a training session: i exercise my brain in solving problems which aren't fundemental, to keep myself in shape.I don't know too much literature on the subject (eh, yeh, i just realized this other meaning of the word )


2.I enjoy shmups, which are absolutely remote from any of the possible cultures that can be labelled as "italian" as a "western" culture(please, this point is worth pages by itself, let's not go too much in detail).I enjoy to learn a game engine and solve the puzzles in the game, also known as levels. More than anything, i like the aspect of optimization (should i define this?) involved in squeezing a stage for the maximum amount of point. In general, i like to optimize systems: this has much more to do with my personality (Extj in Mayer-Briggs terms) than with culture.Well, i grew up in a "familiar/social" setting in which cooperation is rewarded more than competition.Also, i grew up, from a gaming point of view, in my uncle's arcade, where there were people who cooperated in the said puzzle-solving process on games.

3. If you pretend from me exact references on a videogames forum, i demand that you do the same.Let's say that i'm mixing various aspects of cognitive sciences, which also involve social sciences, in the said explanations of mine. After all, the basic question is: "Do individuals in western countries dislike to spend time in in-parallel (for the lack of a better term) analysis of shmups?"

4.Good night, i need to sleep

[sethsez]

Sorry, it's in my precedent post, the one with the numbered paragraphs.
Let's pretend you're not just trolling and...
Let me recap :

1. As all human beings, i like learning new things to increase my chances of survival.This means that i have a positive emotion (let's label it fun, i can't check any handbooks right now) whenever i'm successful at these types of tasks (Do you need proof for this?).This enjoyment isn't immediately fundamental to my survival, but more of a training session: i exercise my brain in solving problems which aren't fundemental, to keep myself in shape.I don't know too much literature on the subject (eh, yeh, i just realized this other meaning of the word )

Okay, so we've established that people feel good when they feel they've accomplished something, for primal reasons. This explains the concept of enjoyment, but not what seperates enjoyable work from boring, unfulfilling work. It doesn't explain why some people enjoy shmups, and others don't (and therefore, why some are willing to work on them while others aren't, which is the point of this topic). But wait! This is being explained in your next point:

2.I enjoy shmups, which are absolutely remote from any of the possible cultures that can be labelled as "italian" as a "western" culture(please, this point is worth pages by itself, let's not go too much in detail).I enjoy to learn a game engine and solve the puzzles in the game, also known as levels. More than anything, i like the aspect of optimization (should i define this?) involved in squeezing a stage for the maximum amount of point. In general, i like to optimize systems: this has much more to do with my personality (Extj in Mayer-Briggs terms) than with culture.Well, i grew up in a "familiar/social" setting in which cooperation is rewarded more than competition.Also, i grew up, from a gaming point of view, in my uncle's arcade, where there were people who cooperated in the said puzzle-solving process on games.

So what you're saying is that your tastes fall in line with the family that raised you and the environment you grew up in? Do you think that if you grew up with a bunch of people who got together and threw LAN parties that your taste might be different than they currently are? And in addition to this, your choice to play these games further molded your tastes to where they are today?

So what you're saying, essentially, is that your enjoyment of shooters has some basis in predetermined factors (primal urges), some basis in cultural factors (your family situation, your uncle), and some basis in choice and unique personality factors. Well, spank my ass and call me Suzie.

3. If you pretend from me exact references on a videogames forum, i demand that you do the same.

I'm not the one claiming a scientific basis here. If I was, someone would call me out on it.

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Now I'm starting to enjoy being lazy more than ever before. If these are the kind of people that are considered not lazy then I'll be happy being as far removed from them as possible.

One of the nicer things about Literature is that it can't blow your ship up and cause you to curse and then proceed to smash your videogame console.

[Randorama]

Okay, so we've established that people feel good when they feel they've accomplished something, for primal reasons. This explains the concept of enjoyment, but not what seperates enjoyable work from boring, unfulfilling work. It doesn't explain why some people enjoy shmups, and others don't (and therefore, why some are willing to work on them while others aren't, which is the point of this topic). But wait! This is being explained in your next point:

I've already said about the effect of not learning anything new=boring, Sethsez.You're not cooperative at all and your arguments, right now are revolving about "ah, but i ignore what you say so you haven't proven anything!".It's not the way a constructive discussion works.Also, if i don't use references it's because i'ts pointless to speak,in such a case: i would end up like Laputa's scientists with a bag of objects to avoid definitions.
In general though, if you would troll less and cooperate more, it would help you a lot.For all i care, i will reply only if you change tone and provide other content than "oh, but that what's you say!".Discussions are not "pwning n00bs in FPSshite LAN parties",you know?Lowering the testosterone level would help you a bit, i think

[chtimi-CLA]

Discussions are not "pwning n00bs in FPSshite LAN parties",you know?Lowering the testosterone level would help you a bit, i think

the pot is calling the kettle black. what about throwing around less accusations of ineptitude at the first sign of disagreement, randorama? you used to be more mellowed out.

[Icarus]

Why don't you all invest your time in playing (or doing something else that you like) instead of arguing over the 'Net? Plenty of trashtalking going on, very little productivity.

[sethsez]

Okay, so we've established that people feel good when they feel they've accomplished something, for primal reasons. This explains the concept of enjoyment, but not what seperates enjoyable work from boring, unfulfilling work. It doesn't explain why some people enjoy shmups, and others don't (and therefore, why some are willing to work on them while others aren't, which is the point of this topic). But wait! This is being explained in your next point:

I've already said about the effect of not learning anything new=boring, Sethsez.You're not cooperative at all and your arguments, right now are revolving about "ah, but i ignore what you say so you haven't proven anything!".It's not the way a constructive discussion works.Also, if i don't use references it's because i'ts pointless to speak,in such a case: i would end up like Laputa's scientists with a bag of objects to avoid definitions.
In general though, if you would troll less and cooperate more, it would help you a lot.For all i care, i will reply only if you change tone and provide other content than "oh, but that what's you say!".Discussions are not "pwning n00bs in FPSshite LAN parties",you know?Lowering the testosterone level would help you a bit, i think

Sorry, but the basis of what you're saying is "I have perfect taste, and thus know exactly how good or bad everything is from a totally objective standpoint" which, in addition to being the height of arrogance, is also complete bullshit. You then work backwards from there in an attempt to prove that your taste is the taste (even trying to invoke science!), in a way that reminds me of South Park. "1) Humans have primal reasons to enjoy facing challenges. 2) ??? 3) Shmups are objectively better than FPS or any other genre!"

Your argument is fallacious, and your idea of coopoeration is to agree with you. Well, I don't agree with you, because your argument rests on some assumptions that I consider highly, highly flawed. Teenage pseudo-philosophy doesn't impress me, so I'm not going to agree with you on that just because it might make the debate go smoother. If you're going to make the claim that a broad spectrum of something is objectively good, and people who don't like it are just wrong and lazy, then you'd better be prepared to back that up, and you haven't. You've backed up why you like them, but nobody ever argued that.

[Thunder Force]

Moved to OT as this is not even remotely related to shmups chat anymore...

[Randorama]

Sorry, but the basis of what you're saying is "I have perfect taste, and thus know exactly how good or bad everything is from a totally objective standpoint" which, in addition to being the height of arrogance, is also complete bullshit.



You then work backwards from there in an attempt to prove that your taste is the taste (even trying to invoke science!), in a way that reminds me of South Park. "1) Humans have primal reasons to enjoy facing challenges. 2) ??? 3) Shmups are objectively better than FPS or any other genre!"

This made up.At no point i made any statement about genres but, since i've hurt your feelings, you started raving.Regardless of the genre, the reasons i provided work to explain why a person likes or not games, of course in a specific context. However, willpower is surely important, else i would like FPSes too ( there were two excellent players in high-school class alone). I've mae an example on myself, but well, the basic method i've outlined MORE THAN ONCE should work for everyone.Put a variable instead of another and it should be easy to find out why people can like shmups or FPSes, i think. If not, i can't think for you, sorry.

I've told you more than once (but your petty little feelings were hurt) of the reasons of why a person may or may not like a thing, and you kept repeating "oh but i'm ignoring everything you say so i'm right". Before speaking of "pseudophilosophy", though, you should at least try to understand what other people are saying.You can be the reactionary defender of your beloved genres, but this doesn't contribute at all to the discussion. Beside that, if you want to prove why my arguments are fallacious, you have to actually do it."Omg your arguments are fallacious" doesn't suffice.Not that i care, as always you spend your time in monologues: else, you wouldn't rave about things i didn't say.It's all about testosterone, after all, do you need an explanation?It's all about winning, for you "anglophonics", apparently.Or maybe "males"?Or maybe something else...?



One last thing.Let's see:

the pot is calling the kettle black. what about throwing around less accusations of ineptitude at the first sign of disagreement, randorama? you used to be more mellowed out.

Maybe you may notice the brackets. When a person reacts out of emotion and starts a reactionary defense of a position, there's no room for discussion, just for quarrel.I know that these are pseudo-intellectual babblings, but well, i tend to think outside job, i'm not protestant.Or communist.Or...

[sethsez]

1) You didn't hurt my feelings. I just find "my tastes are better than everyone else's" people to be irritating.

2) I've probably played 3 FPS in the past 5 years. On the other hand, I've played more shmups than I can count. I'm calling your claims stupid because I think they're stupid, not because you've hurt something near and dear to my heart.

3) If nobody seems to understand the point you're making, do you think it could be because you're doing a bad job of explaining yourself, rather than a willful attempt to misunderstand you on the part of everyone else? Every time I think I've got a grip on what you're saying (and believe me, I've gone over all your posts several times), you say "no, that's not what I said." All I know for sure at this point is that you said games have more intrinsic value than literature, and you use science to decide what you're going to like. These both reek of a teenager who thinks he knows more than he does.

4)

i tend to think outside job, i'm not protestant.Or communist.Or...

This is a strawman, but I don't even understand what the point of it is.

[Randorama]

1) You didn't hurt my feelings. I just find "my tastes are better than everyone else's" people to be irritating.

Last reply as you seem to be absolutely vicious in your mistakes:

Did i ever said that my tastes are better than yours?Aren't you actually thinking that, since i "don't agree with you" (we're actually arguing paralle l arguments, so to speak), i'm against your point of view?How much of this reasoning is yours and so on...?

2) I've probably played 3 FPS in the past 5 years. On the other hand, I've played more shmups than I can count. I'm calling your claims stupid because I think they're stupid, not because you've hurt something near and dear to my heart.

You're not proving they're stupid though. By proving that, you should prove that they lead to conclusions which don't adhere to facts. You're just making a claim, which is a typical emotive response.Now, do i need to back up this with some handbook reference to the study of emotions and so on...?Why, by the way, all this insistence on FPSes?

3) If nobody seems to understand the point you're making, do you think it could be because you're doing a bad job of explaining yourself, rather than a willful attempt to misunderstand you on the part of everyone else?

The set of nobody is composed by you alone, isn't this a tad megalomaniac?And should we talk about the other user who started another defense of "literature"?

I'd add that if there are two groups in an argument, and one those groups is made of the ones who skip the other's group positions and just insult, are they worth consideration?Maybe you (pluralia maiestatis...) are misunderstanding, after all. I may be not too clear in my "stupid" explanations, but you should *at least* read them. I'll stop replying next time you'll make wrong inferences from what i've written, by the way.

[sethsez]

I HAVE READ WHAT YOU'VE WRITTEN. And I still don't get your arguments. Every time I think I see what you're saying (and yes, it does seem that we're arguing the same thing in different ways), you insist that, no, I've read it wrong.

So I will ask one more time. What, exactly, is your position on this? Why do some people like shmups, while others don't? And if it's mostly (or entirely) choice, why should people choose to like shmups over anything else? Those are the only two questions I care about, because they're the only two that have any relevance to discussing why western gamers suck at shmups, and if this means they're lazy or simply don't care.

Finally, I use FPS for the same reason I use Garegga. It's a handy example. Nothing more. And since you've admitted that you hate them, it's a decent enough parallel for people who hate shmups.

[Super Glob]

So I will ask one more time. What, exactly, is your position on this? Why do some people like shmups, while others don't? And if it's mostly (or entirely) choice, why should people choose to like shmups over anything else? Those are the only two questions I care about, because they're the only two that have any relevance to discussing why western gamers suck at shmups, and if this means they're lazy or simply don't care.

Actually, the topic is about Western Shmup players, not Western gamers.

[sethsez]

Well, the title said "western people" so I made that connection.

If we're talking solely about shmup fans, I wouldn't say western gamers are lazy, I'd say Japanese gamers are too hardcore (assuming only the best of both regions). But I think games in general are a silly thing to get hardcore to the point of life-altering over. If you play to the point of having no job (or in the case of some Korean MMORPG players, death), you need to step back and re-evaluate some things.

Fatal1ty is a good example of this in America. Of course, he's actually made money out of it, but still.

[Randorama]

I HAVE READ WHAT YOU'VE WRITTEN.

I would say otherwise, as some comments are based on skipping together chunks of my posts.

So I will ask one more time. What, exactly, is your position on this? Why do some people like shmups, while others don't? And if it's mostly (or entirely) choice, why should people choose to like shmups over anything else? Those are the only two questions I care about, because they're the only two that have any relevance to discussing why western gamers suck at shmups, and if this means they're lazy or simply don't care.

Fighting games, which are exactly like FPSes, are competitive, besting someone else. Shmups can be played as an exercise of "reverse engineering", with the side-effect of being better than others. As i said too, the cooperative aspect is stronger in shmups (as you can do teamwork to figure out a level). This depends a lot on personality, which is more or less influenced by external factors. I'd add that, if the various shmups companies had a bigger distribution outside Asia, we'd see similar results. I remember Japanese-like results on Rayforce, Darius Gaiden and Raystorm, for instance, because there was a good community playing them. At some point, it's a question of volume of playing, not of quality.

Finally, I use FPS for the same reason I use Garegga. It's a handy example. Nothing more. And since you've admitted that you hate them, it's a decent enough parallel for people who hate shmups.

...welcome to shmups.com, btw

[sethsez]

I would say otherwise, as some comments are based on skipping together chunks of my posts.

No. I read your posts, but I see you say, for example, "liking something is a matter of choice" followed with "personality is more or less influenced by external factors" and it becomes hard to tell where, exactly, you're coming from. Unless someone's tastes are completely divorced from their personality, these seem like contradicting terms, or at least a thought that isn't fully fleshed out. If someone's tastes have something to do with their personality, and their personality is at least partially formed by external influences, then how can it be purely a matter of choice? So if it seems like I'm skipping chunks of your posts, it's because I'm trying to make sense of what, at times, seem to be conflicting concepts. Which is why I asked you to clarify things. Which you did in the following paragraph.

Fighting games, which are exactly like FPSes, are competitive, besting someone else. Shmups can be played as an exercise of "reverse engineering", with the side-effect of being better than others. As i said too, the cooperative aspect is stronger in shmups (as you can do teamwork to figure out a level). This depends a lot on personality, which is more or less influenced by external factors. I'd add that, if the various shmups companies had a bigger distribution outside Asia, we'd see similar results. I remember Japanese-like results on Rayforce, Darius Gaiden and Raystorm, for instance, because there was a good community playing them. At some point, it's a question of volume of playing, not of quality.

So essentially, we're saying the exact same thing in different ways.

...welcome to shmups.com, btw

What's that supposed to mean?

[Rastan78]

This thread brings up another question. Does playing in an arcade really help you improve your skills faster than playing at home?

Everyone talks about the network of information effect but I think here are a few other reasons why I think this might be true. One, you're playing a coin operated game where your hard earned is on the line. It's no big deal to keep hitting reset on your console, but it's different to keep heading back to the change machine over and over.

Another thing is you might often have other gamers looking over your shoulder. I've never had this going on in a shooter, but with fighting games it really adds that extra incentive. No one wants to look like they suck in front of everyone and it's nice to pull off something that's going to give you a nerdy sense of approval from everyone else. Again, there's just that extra sense of excitement and pressure.

Plus when you're at an arcade you're there to play games and play games only. Other distractions like your family or friends walking in front of the screen are gone and there are no pause buttons. The game sounds are turned up louder than anything else and your face is planted inches in front of a huge monitor. In other words you can get totally in the zone.

I've noticed that some of our top shmuppers here, like Rando and DEL have honed a lot of their skills in an arcade. So maybe part of the difference is just so many gamers in Japan having access to arcades. By the time we're sitting in the living room messing around with a home port, they've had months or more to hone their skills in an actual arcade.

A lot of the world's best gamers play their games exclusively in the arcade only.

[Icarus]

You're more likely to run into other players interested in the arcade games you play when you practice in an arcade. As stated before in this thread, being part of a small local network of players is immensely beneficial to your abilities as you can share tips, get pointers from expert observers, watch others play, and compete.

While you can do that at home with a console port, the main incentive in an arcade is to save yourself money and look good doing it, and to do that, you aim to become proficient. Besides, when you play in an arcade, you often attract an audience if you're doing well (and showing off is always good for the ego) ^_-

The main benefit of ports is that you can test out strategies in the comfort of your own home, and videocapture if you have the facilities. Plus it's convenient, and unlike an arcade, it only "closes" when you power off the console ^_- The only problem is, unless your friends are into shmups as well, or you have regular meets, it's only ever yourself playing the game.

The main benefit of an online forum is that you have a semi-permanent location for discussions, and you have access to a much larger group of like-minded individuals. The only downside is that sharing strategies and replays is less convenient - only a handful of players are willing to discuss tactics, and superplays/replays are difficult to share due to finding a location or system to distribute them.

[PaCrappa]

In Japan there are people playing the same game for many years, and it’s not always linked to competition (VTF Ika double play vids come to mind.).
Over in the west you tend to get the new console released shmup played for three months if you’re lucky, then mostly everyone seems to give up.
Then there are people who seem to have a fit if a game has a scoring system, I mean what is the point in playing the games then? They just become mindless, repetitive, mind dulling experiences.
Sure it is fun to dodge bullets when you first start playing shmups, but this can’t last forever.

Is thinking too hard to do for the western person?
Will any western player ever complete both loops of Dodonpachi DOJ or Ketsui?
Am I being too harsh?

Videogames are entertainment. This isn't martial arts, the saxophone, bull riding, ballet, gymnastics, ski jumping wrestling or any other kind of hobby that actually requires hard work. These things are mere pleasantries in life. To even think it's plausible to get away with directing the word lazy at someone who doesn't work busily at playing a piece of entertainment that they paid for with their own money (which they presumably work a job to get) as much as humanly possible is fucking dumb. Seriously. You wanna do some work? Get over here and mow my lawn.

Pa

[Rob]

This isn't martial arts, the saxophone, bull riding, ballet, gymnastics, ski jumping wrestling or any other kind of hobby that actually requires hard work.

Except the few here that could get a person killed for not knowing what they're doing (bull riding), none of these "require" hard work. Anybody can be as casual as they want at martial arts, videogames or the saxophone. And suck.

I'm not at all endorsing the first post's sentiments.

[Randorama]

So essentially, we're saying the exact same thing in different ways.

I'd add that most japanese players don't add that the kind of double thought that seems to permeate western players...a standard western idea is that any kind of constant practice outside work is work, thus boring because it forces you to think (and you will go to hell if you think by yourself outside work!).Forums for infos and people practicing hard are more common.Personally, i practice hard as long as i have doing it (i.e. discover new stuff) but since we've said that, in their settings, chances to discover new things are higher, it should be also funnier to practice a lot.

...welcome to shmups.com, btw

What's that supposed to mean?

I suppose people who are here like shmups. Then again, i'd say they prefer ranting about games mechanics of games they've never played, console wars and futile discussions about the definition of shmups...

[Super Glob]

Videogames are entertainment. This isn't martial arts, the saxophone, bull riding, ballet, gymnastics, ski jumping wrestling or any other kind of hobby that actually requires hard work. These things are mere pleasantries in life. To even think it's plausible to get away with directing the word lazy at someone who doesn't work busily at playing a piece of entertainment that they paid for with their own money (which they presumably work a job to get) as much as humanly possible is fucking dumb. Seriously. You wanna do some work? Get over here and mow my lawn.

Pa

And martial arts, the saxophone, bull riding, ballet, gymnastics, ski jumping wrestling are not “mere pleasantries in life” ?


Videogames means a lot of different kinds of games; can you really compare something like Nintendogs to say Battle Garegga?
To me Nintendogs is light entertainment, where Garegga is working out strategies to get the best possible results of what I’d say are the designer’s intensions, a high score.
Which is what this is about, shmups (not videogames as a whole.) and people giving up on working out the game engines because they think it’s work.


To be honest my first post was wrote in a way I felt would cause reaction, my views are certainly that Arcades help, for the said reasons and if you’ve heard of mirror neurons this should also be a factor.
I still feel that the tools are available for people outside of Japan to push their scores to a similar level.
After all like I said, no one as cleared both loops of DOJ, not even taking into account going for a high score.

[FatCobra]

As far as I know, videogames are meant to have fun with. Of course, planning stratgies and tatics can be fun too, but sometimes there's a little too of if and it becomes a chore instead.

[PaCrappa]

Videogames means a lot of different kinds of games; can you really compare something like Nintendogs to say Battle Garegga?

Yes. Both are inherenmtly lazy activities. You sit on your ass and look at a screen. Some people move only their thumbs.

It's not like you're landscaping somebody's yard. Try going to a martial arts class and not breaking a sweat.

Some little Japanesey fellow having sat and played DDP DOJ for 20 hours a day for the past three years so that he could complete the second loop does not render the rest of us automatically "lazy". And what "tools" are available so that Westerners can excel? Replay videos to copy so that when you play a game you get to play it exactly like everyone else. That's sweet. Videogamers should all wear the same uniform too.

It's ridiculous that you would choose the word lazy in this context. Again, if you're looking for work to do I hear there was recently a fairly bad storm down in Louisiana.

Pa

[kemical]

all the good shooters are made in japan.


i wouldn't say we are lazy... its just the 'norm' for gaming around here is different, people have different tastes though.
the idea of story/interaction etc is pushed so hard on gamers now.
people like quick saves. most people just want to sit down for an experience, they don't want to be faced with a ridiculous challenge (but others do).
you should hear some of the complaints we get from Ubi testers or our local testers about stuff being too hard etc... IMO mainstream game developers, at least in the FPS genre, baby-sit the player far too much nowadays... but ah well, it's not exactly wrong to do that.

I'm hoping there will be some great revival of sidescrollers and shooters, but it all depends on indy dev, at least for the pc market.. and I'm honestly not even aware of games being made by indy dev stuff, since I'm so hooked on still playing arcade games that have come and gone..

It's also kind of hard to see a great revival like that with the emphasis put on 3d tech, except for when a game decides to be creative with things rather than pushing for realism... thats why 3d stuff mostly always looks dated, because it pushed to be realistic based on tech, rather than the opposite (or something like that, i'm not even sure).

I dont really know.. its just great that japanese companies are still making shooters.

and why is it only Japan?

[Super Glob]

Yes. Both are inherenmtly lazy activities. You sit on your ass and look at a screen. Some people move only their thumbs.

Lazy doesn’t necessarily have to relate to physical activities.

Some little Japanesey fellow having sat and played DDP DOJ for 20 hours a day for the past three years so that he could complete the second loop

I doubt you’d need more than 2 hours a day.

does not render the rest of us automatically "lazy".

I never said it did.

And what "tools" are available so that Westerners can excel? Replay videos to copy so that when you play a game you get to play it exactly like everyone else. That's sweet. Videogamers should all wear the same uniform too.

You have your own mind to work out new ideas and strategies from replays, but that's probably too much work for you.

[sethsez]

If you think people need to aside two hours a day (or, likely, more) for years solely to get better at a single videogame, you need some perspective. As has already been mentioned, Japan doesn't consider these people to be their finest citizens. They're the equivalent of the jackasses who live on World of Warcraft and have every single rare item. The only people who are impressed are other MMORPG dorks. Everyone else just wishes they'd take a goddamn shower.

If playing videogames had a positive affect on someone's life, I could understand using "lazy" here. Someone who just gets fatter and fatter because he refuses to exercise is lazy. Someone with aspirations of playing the cello in an orchestra but doesn't practice is lazy. Someone who doesn't have a job because hunting for one is too difficult is lazy. Someone who's barely literate because he didn't bother working in school is lazy. Someone who can't get the world's best score in DOJ because he doesn't play it daily is normal. Someone who doesn't have six level 50 characters in WoW because he also wants to have a social life approaching that of a normal human's is normal.

Tiger Woods is one of the best golfers in the country. He started playing soon after he learned to walk, and made it his life's goal to be the best. Someone who likes to play golf on weekends is not lazy because he's not as good as Tiger Woods.

[cigsthecat]

If you think people need to aside two hours a day (or, likely, more) for years solely to get better at a single videogame, you need some perspective. As has already been mentioned, Japan doesn't consider these people to be their finest citizens. They're the equivalent of the jackasses who live on World of Warcraft and have every single rare item. The only people who are impressed are other MMORPG dorks. Everyone else just wishes they'd take a goddamn shower.

So this huge generalization that you really have no basis for is your argument then?

Someone who just gets fatter and fatter because he refuses to exercise is lazy.

What about someone who never exercises and doesn't get fat at all?

Someone with aspirations of playing the cello in an orchestra but doesn't practice is lazy.

What about someone with aspirations of becoming a great shooter player that never practices?

Someone who doesn't have six level 50 characters in WoW because he also wants to have a social life approaching that of a normal human's is normal.

Comparing that nonsense to the skill it takes to be the best in a difficult shooter is crap, and you know it.

Tiger Woods is one of the best golfers in the country. He started playing soon after he learned to walk, and made it his life's goal to be the best. Someone who likes to play golf on weekends is not lazy because he's not as good as Tiger Woods.

If he does goes out and sucks at it week after week, never improving (or having the desire to) it's still kind of sad though.


Finally seth, I have a question that seems to apply to you extremely well:

Why does it freak some people out when someone is REALLY damned good at something they also enjoy on some level? Why are you disgusted, instead of inspired? Why do you lash out with personal attacks instead of wanting details about how they got so good?

I see this all the time in other areas of life and it always seems so bizarre to me.

[sethsez]

Why does it freak some people out when someone is REALLY damned good at something they also enjoy on some level? Why are you disgusted, instead of inspired? Why do you lash out with personal attacks instead of wanting details about how they got so good?

I can beat Darius Gaiden in one life. I can finish most Gradius games without breaking a sweat. I'm not freaked out by people who are good at shmups.

You know what does irritate the living hell out of me, though? People who think they're superior because they're good at shmups. Or can kick anyone's ass in Counter-Strike. Or can complete Resident Evil 2 in under and hour and a half.

If someone devotes their life to a musical instrument, there's a good chance they could make a career out of it. That practice will pay off. It's not just wasted time. Someone who's really good at a shooter can do fuck all with this skill they've built. If they have fun doing it, then great! Have fun doing it. I know I have. But I don't try to convince myself that it's somehow bettering me. It isn't. It's 100% pure entertainment. Outside of the sense of satisfaction I get when I beat my old high score, I've gained absolutely nothing that improves me or sets me up for better things.

This topic asked if westerners are "lazy" when it comes to shmups. THIS is what is annoying. It implies that shmups are more important than they actually are, and then condescends anyone who doesn't share the level of love that people here have for the genre. It's the difference between someone who really loves Star Trek (reasonable), and someone who mocks you for not bothering to learn Klingon (not reasonable). When your love of, and dedication to, your choice of entertainment gets to the point where you condescend anyone who isn't as devoted as yourself, you need to step back and get some perspective on things. There's nothing wrong with being hardcore into something, as long as you're aware that there's also nothing wrong with not being hardcore into it as well.