Defining "survival" play

[TLB]

A response or two in the scoreless mod thread has prompted this question: What do you consider "survival" play to be? Simply flailing about and playing on reaction? Treating each section as a small puzzle and figuring out a solution? Something else? If you respond "other", please concisely state your idea in a separate section of your post, for clarity.

[Op Intensify]

When I ignore chains in DDP, the skull meter in Guwange, medaling in Garegga, rings/gems in Progear, the androids in Feveron, or Kakusei Zesshikai in Galuda 2. And so on.

For more traditional games like R-Type, there are no real distinctions between scoring and survival.

[BIL]

The epitome of SURVIVOR PLAY = Gun.Smoke.

In this game there is no scoring and more importantly motherfuckers are out to KILL YOU.

Stay alive by killing every motherfucker you see.

Kill them intelligently and with great foresight. If you flail about, you'll be cornered and killed by the motherfuckers! BE SMART. Eventually you will reach the very last one and kill him too! JOB DONE.

That for me is TRUE SURVIVAL PLAY.

In a game with an actual scoring system it's doing the above without giving consideration to scoring! So you don't tickle and caress that monster tank or wait for a fairy to pop out of its hatch, you just murder its face off before it can shoot you!

edit: PS I voted option #2.

[Lance Boyle]

Playing with the bare minimum of effort required solely to clear the game.

[Gus]

I voted flailing about as most of the "survival players" on here just seem to be casuals who can't be bothered to learn to play properly. That and from the survival focused replays I've seen from said casuals the strategies just don't seem well thought out all even comparing them to score-focused replays from a pure survival standpoint.

[Lance Boyle]

Also, everyone who posts in this and the other two threads should feel terrible about themselves. I already do.

[Paradigm]

If you're paying absolutely no mind to the scoring system and focusing only on staying alive.

[Hagane]

Yeah I always wondered about this too. For some reason a lot of people seem to believe that surviving in a shooter requires no thought, whereas "playing for score" does (as if survival in itself weren't a scoring mechanic!). I think they equate the word survival with the bare minimum you need to do to get a 1CC, which I think is wrong and misleading.

Even in games by Cave which are supposed to favor "score play" over "survival", skillful survival plays a huge part in scoring (as it should be; for example loop requirements for Progear or Ketsui, chains break if you die in the Pachis, bombing usually affects your score negatively, end level/game bonuses, etc).

tl;dr: something doesn't need to be completely alien to bullet dodging to be considered a scoring system!

[Gus]

Yeah I always wondered about this too. For some reason a lot of people seem to believe that surviving in a shooter requires no thought, whereas "playing for score" does (as if survival in itself weren't a scoring mechanic!). I think they equate the word survival with the bare minimum you need to do to get a 1CC, which I think is wrong and misleading.

Even in games by Cave which are supposed to favor "score play" over "survival", skillful survival plays a huge part in scoring (as it should be; for example loop requirements for Progear or Ketsui, chains break if you die in the Pachis, bombing usually affects your score negatively, end level/game bonuses, etc).

tl;dr: something doesn't need to be completely alien to bullet dodging to be considered a scoring system!

I think there's a very clear distinction between the kind of survival play people do when they're milking the max bomb bonus in DDP and the kind done from most people who call themselves "survival players" where put very little effort into learning to score and consider a 1-ALL and 1cc to be the same thing.

[hzt]

I was going to write a parody post about survival being shitty stupid play by scrubs and end it with #inbeforeGus, but then I was doing something else first and during that Gus got in here and wrote the same awful post un-ironically.

[Hagane]

Gus: my point is that a lot of people don't understand that distinction, and seem to regard anything associated to bullet dodging (even if it means to NMNB a tough game) as non-scoring, and survival of any kind to be less skillful than chaining, for example.

[Kollision]

The epitome of SURVIVOR PLAY = Gun.Smoke.

In this game there is no scoring and more importantly motherfuckers are out to KILL YOU.

Stay alive by killing every motherfucker you see.

Kill them intelligently and with great foresight. If you flail about, you'll be cornered and killed by the motherfuckers! BE SMART. Eventually you will reach the very last one and kill him too! JOB DONE.

That for me is TRUE SURVIVAL PLAY.

Great post, thanks for the good laugh!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Also, everyone who posts in this and the other two threads should feel terrible about themselves. I already do.

I was only half-kidding about stupid threads showing up lately, but fuck.

any talk of playing to survive vs score always ends up this way

[burgerkingdiamond]

Playing for survival to me is just trying to clear the game. If there are score extends then I'll try and learn the scoring system enough to get those extends because obviously that helps the main goal of getting the clear.

That doesn't at all insinuate flailing about or unskillful play. If it was superficially easy to clear shmups then we wouldn't have the phenomenon of credit feeding now would we?

For me the fact of the matter is that some scoring systems just don't appeal to me due to their strict nature (DDP) or others are so obtuse that I can't really understand them (ESPgaluda). The free time that I have is better spent playing games rather than watching superplays or reading strategies to try and figure them out. I would much rather learn the scoring systems "organically" through interaction with other players in say an arcade environment, but that ain't happening..

[Despatche]

playing fire shark and co

[Paradigm]

Let me clear something up for you, TLB.

Here is what I wrote in the other thread:

which means that the people who prefer to just shut their brain off, shoot stuff, dodge stuff (ie play for survival).

OK. Are there people who play like this? Yes there are. People on this very forum have said so themselves. Sometimes, they like to just switch off, dodge and shoot.

Now, would you classify that type of play as suvival oriented or scoring oriented? I would classify it as survival play, which is why I wrote "ie play for survival". I know how poor your reading comprehension is, so I'll elaborate on this part for you. What I didn't say was: if you play for survival, all you do is flail around without thinking.

Just to clarify, that's what I didn't say, what I did say was that shutting your brain off and just dodging and shooting is survival play. Are we clear on that?

The point was simply to give a clear example of the difference in the two ways of playing, and this was the simplest distinction to use.

I didn't expect some complete weirdo to get all pedantic, take it as an absolute and go and make a whole thread about it, though.

Bravo.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I didn't expect some complete weirdo to get all pedantic, take it as an absolute and go and make a whole thread about it, though.

Didn't he get a ban for spamming those threads? Getting himself banned was a far more productive use of his time than making this thread was.

[chempop]

For me the fact of the matter is that some scoring systems just don't appeal to me due to their strict nature (DDP) or others are so obtuse that I can't really understand them (ESPgaluda).

ESPgaluda is very simple.

Collect emeralds->spend emeralds->destroy crap and turn bullets to gold

How is that "obtuse"?

[trap15]

Because it requires some form of thought.

[Giest118]

Survival play is when you try not to die.

[burgerkingdiamond]

For me the fact of the matter is that some scoring systems just don't appeal to me due to their strict nature (DDP) or others are so obtuse that I can't really understand them (ESPgaluda).

ESPgaluda is very simple.

Collect emeralds->spend emeralds->destroy crap and turn bullets to gold

How is that "obtuse"?

Well you gave a very simple explanation, and it doesn't sound obtuse (is ESPgaluda II any different? because that's the one I've tried playing).

You have to collect gems, but then there's also the gold. And the slowdown thing. I've tried reading strats for ESPgaluda II in particular and gotten confused by the different shot types and whatnot and I just didn't get it. If I was at meet or something and could watch someone play and ask questions that would make it very evident I'm sure.

A better example of an obtuse scoring system would be Mushi I guess. But I'm actually not that interested in debating the merits of complex scoring systems. I'm glad they're there but just wish there was like a tutorial or something in console ports to really break it down (or even better if there was an arcade to hang out at and witness players firthand).

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Well you gave a very simple explanation, and it doesn't sound obtuse (is ESPgaluda II any different? because that's the one I've tried playing).

Espgaluda II isn't much more complicated in concept than Espgaluda I is, but the method to score is completely different as it relies on the new Kakusei Zesshikai (which launches suicide bullets, requires gold to use, multiplier goes up to 500x). It's much harder to execute than Espgaluda I's scoring is due to having to deal with bullets all over the place. If you play Espgaluda II as though you're playing the first one and only use the basic Kakusei to earn gems, the multiplier only goes up to 100x, so you're basically scoring way less.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't played Espgaluda II that much.

[O. Van Bruce]

Playing for survival to me is just trying to clear the game. If there are score extends then I'll try and learn the scoring system enough to get those extends because obviously that helps the main goal of getting the clear.

That doesn't at all insinuate flailing about or unskillful play. If it was superficially easy to clear shmups then we wouldn't have the phenomenon of credit feeding now would we?

This... though i don't agree on your views of EspGaluda.

[Gus]

Playing for survival to me is just trying to clear the game. If there are score extends then I'll try and learn the scoring system enough to get those extends because obviously that helps the main goal of getting the clear.

That doesn't at all insinuate flailing about or unskillful play. If it was superficially easy to clear shmups then we wouldn't have the phenomenon of credit feeding now would we?

Objectively speaking compared to score play "survival play" is very much unskillful play seeing how most games force you to hoard bombs or no-miss just to get a decent score. Another reason is that most of the survival players seem to lean towards easier games where you definitely can get away with playing on reaction. Where's all the survival players trying to 1cc Futari Ultra or 1cc (not 1-ALL) DOJ BL?

[O. Van Bruce]

Playing for survival to me is just trying to clear the game. If there are score extends then I'll try and learn the scoring system enough to get those extends because obviously that helps the main goal of getting the clear.

That doesn't at all insinuate flailing about or unskillful play. If it was superficially easy to clear shmups then we wouldn't have the phenomenon of credit feeding now would we?

Objectively speaking compared to score play "survival play" is very much unskillful play seeing how most games force you to hoard bombs or no-miss just to get a decent score. Another reason is that most of the survival players seem to lean towards easier games where you definitely can get away with playing on reaction. Where's all the survival players trying to 1cc Futari Ultra or 1cc (not 1-ALL) DOJ BL?

Gus... try to don't mock on players that only want to have a good time playing a game. There is a learning curve and enjoyment curve on shmups... if it were'nt for the "survival play" very few people woud get introduced on the shmup genre.

And THERE ARE Futari Ultra and God survival players

[Daigoro]

The epitome of SURVIVOR PLAY = Gun.Smoke.

In this game there is no scoring and more importantly motherfuckers are out to KILL YOU.

huh? sure there is.

man i love that game.

[Gus]

Gus... try to don't mock on players that only want to have a good time playing a game. There is a learning curve and enjoyment curve on shmups... if it were'nt for the "survival play" very few people woud get introduced on the shmup genre.

This topic is about what you consider survival play to be because as mentioned, there's a distinction that needs to be made between the survival play done by people trying to reach Ketsui's Ura loop and what the "survival players" do where they celebrate bomb spamming through the easiest difficulty/first loop of games. To me especially given how reluctant so many people seem to be in copying replays the idea that "survival play" is "Treating each section as a small puzzle and figuring out a solution" is utterly laughable and I have no idea how it's winning by so much. Actually I do, scrub pride and all that.

And THERE ARE Futari Ultra and God survival players

Not in the western hemisphere. There's maybe 2 or 3 people including me who've sunk any real time into Ultra. God is like night and day to it in terms of 1cc difficulty.

[burgerkingdiamond]

Well you gave a very simple explanation, and it doesn't sound obtuse (is ESPgaluda II any different? because that's the one I've tried playing).

Espgaluda II isn't much more complicated in concept than Espgaluda I is, but the method to score is completely different as it relies on the new Kakusei Zesshikai (which launches suicide bullets, requires gold to use, multiplier goes up to 500x). It's much harder to execute than Espgaluda I's scoring is due to having to deal with bullets all over the place. If you play Espgaluda II as though you're playing the first one and only use the basic Kakusei to earn gems, the multiplier only goes up to 100x, so you're basically scoring way less.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't played Espgaluda II that much.

OK. I meant ESPgaluda II even though I wrote the original. I've only played like 2 credits of that.

Thanks, I was starting to wonder why I was the only person who thought ESPgaluda II was tricky.

[Marc]

Since when has relying on your reactions become 'flailing'? I think sometimes people forget where these games originate - in the arcade, with NO training mode and NO saves. For me it's simply about not rage-quitting if I fuck up scoring and enjoying the rest of the credit anyway. Shmups are supposed to be catharsis, a release from the daily fucking grind, not part of it.

[Jeneki]

Flailing about and playing on reaction. Turn on, tune in, drop out.
Treating each section as a small puzzle and figuring out a solution.

If you're doing the first, you're already doing the second. The longer you play, whether you're making a conscious effort to or not, you're picking up patterns and learning better solutions to survive longer.