The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[spineshark]

I'm not sure I understand why people who can't be bothered to learn stages 1 and 2 want to play second loop.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

That certainly sounds odd. I've never played a game yet where you wouldn't get all the scoring extends by the end of the last level, even with a poor score. Although I have played games where you can get all of the scoring extends very early (all 3 right after level 1 midboss for instance), which also seems strange, albeit less so.

I wish Reco Abnormal's shot were a bit stronger to make up for how hard she is to use. Also, playing the iOS version where she doesn't have the unusual movement speed disadvantage just feels wrong.

also, why can't i put down wisplisp, i can't get rid of the desire to clear it in normal but oh god, hitbox is like trying to fly a whale

[Giest118]

I'm not sure I understand why people who can't be bothered to learn stages 1 and 2 want to play second loop.

Because you don't need to have every single detail of those two stages memorized in order to survive reasonably well in the second loop?

Hurr?

[Despatche]

I don't think games like DP benefit from score-based extends. Here, they're really for survival; expecting someone to seriously study the game just to get a few extends is going a bit far. Instead, they should just be easily accessible pickups spread throughout the game; in a 6-stage game there should be extends in stages 2/4/6 or just 3/6.

[Giest118]

I don't think games like DP benefit from score-based extends. Here, they're really for survival; expecting someone to seriously study the game just to get a few extends is going a bit far. Instead, they should just be easily accessible pickups spread throughout the game; in a 6-stage game there should be extends in stages 2/4/6 or just 3/6.

For this reason, I believe DoDonPachi has the most balanced scoring in the series, at least as far as extends go. It has those massive potential chains to be sure, but there isn't really that much variation in terms of WHEN you get the score extends. For most runs, it's almost guaranteed that you'll get the first extend in stage 2, and then you'll almost certainly get the second one by the end of stage 5, if you survive that far. There's potential to get it by the end of stage 3 if you're really badass, but the game doesn't punish you out of it altogether if you fail to get it by then.

[Despatche]

posts like the above make me hate people who like ddp

[RNGmaster]

Fucking apostles of the seed and their FUCKING randomly chosen attack patterns. Nothing like losing 3 lives 40 minutes into a run because I don't have tenth-of-a-second reaction times.

[Captain]

Fucking apostles of the seed and their FUCKING randomly chosen attack patterns. Nothing like losing 3 lives 40 minutes into a run because I don't have tenth-of-a-second reaction times.

this.

[mesh control]

Stage 1 & 2 are simple to learn, at least enough to get the first two extends.

[Zaarock]

Fucking apostles of the seed and their FUCKING randomly chosen attack patterns. Nothing like losing 3 lives 40 minutes into a run because I don't have tenth-of-a-second reaction times.

What character are you using? I remember doing training mode constantly trying to speedkill them with minogame on max rank just for fun.. don't remember any super random stuff but minogame does have the cheap invulnerability attack

[Gus]

Fucking apostles of the seed and their FUCKING randomly chosen attack patterns. Nothing like losing 3 lives 40 minutes into a run because I don't have tenth-of-a-second reaction times.

Still not as bad as Espgaluda 2 with the final boss restarts.

[RNGmaster]

Fucking apostles of the seed and their FUCKING randomly chosen attack patterns. Nothing like losing 3 lives 40 minutes into a run because I don't have tenth-of-a-second reaction times.

What character are you using? I remember doing training mode constantly trying to speedkill them with minogame on max rank.. don't remember any super random stuff but minogame does have the cheap invulnerability attack

Fossilmaiden.

[O. Van Bruce]

Fucking apostles of the seed and their FUCKING randomly chosen attack patterns. Nothing like losing 3 lives 40 minutes into a run because I don't have tenth-of-a-second reaction times.

What character are you using? I remember doing training mode constantly trying to speedkill them with minogame on max rank.. don't remember any super random stuff but minogame does have the cheap invulnerability attack

Fossilmaiden.

you can pointblank almost every attack of their "first phase" attacks. If you are quick enough, the proximity will seal then.

[iconoclast]

Not really a shmup grievance, but I just started a practice run in DOJBL from 1-3, and ended my credit on Hibachi with 1.4 billion points. Of course I would finally have a decent run when it doesn't actually count.

[BPzeBanshee]

Bloody stage 3 in Raiden Fighters.

Between learning to get 100k medals by then and then actually living to tell the tale I get ripped to pieces regardless of what ship I use. Anyone that hears me swearing while playing this probably thinks I'm insane.

Seriously I'm reconsidering the difficulty stances of these games. My worst runs in JET hit Sim Stage 20 but more often than not hit Real Battle Phase 1, and RF2 isn't that much better (though China version's piss easy). 1 is feeling a lot harder than JET right now, that's for sure.

[Captain]

Fossilmaiden.

Deadliar and Infernal Sabbath for me.

any tips?

[Marc]

Having to cancel my pre-order for Shin Katana as the finances are a bit tight. Gutted. Oh well, give me something to look forward to next payday I guess.

[O. Van Bruce]

Fucking apostles of the seed and their FUCKING randomly chosen attack patterns. Nothing like losing 3 lives 40 minutes into a run because I don't have tenth-of-a-second reaction times.

I feel your pain RNG...

[BIL]

The purpose of this topic is to consolidate into one thread all the grievances you may have with a particular shmup, a particular boss or any section of any game.

Here's a grievance for your scrub ass: R-Type III's first stage. BAWW IT'S SO DIFFIC - no, it's morphine in game form. NOTHING OF ANY NOTE HAPPENS FOR SEVERAL MINUTES. Tedium, the only fear of the true shooter fan.

I'm pretty sure the guy who designed the first stage died in a freak photocopying accident shortly after, as the rest of the game is vastly better. I would probably destroy the cartridge with a claw hammer if it wasn't.

[Zaarock]

The purpose of this topic is to consolidate into one thread all the grievances you may have with a particular shmup, a particular boss or any section of any game.

Here's a grievance for your scrub ass: R-Type III's first stage. BAWW IT'S SO DIFFIC - no, it's morphine in game form. NOTHING OF ANY NOTE HAPPENS FOR SEVERAL MINUTES. Tedium, the only fear of the true shooter fan.

Sounds like R-Type Final stage 1 to me too, zzz

[BIL]

Yeah, it's a shame... R-Type Delta's opening stage absolutely crackles with activity, even if you're just mindlessly blowing everything up. If you're playing for score every single enemy, bullet, miniboss and setpiece are invitations to push your skills to the limit in the face of disaster. Getting the x2 kill on the Contrite snake quick enough to trigger the hidden Gains mech, then x2ing his ass too while fending off interfering popcorn... that's the kind of tightrope-running stunt that can simply never feel routine.

I wonder how many of the same devs worked on Final. :/

III at least has some wicked stages later on though. Stage 5's "shape memory alloy" theme sets my balls on fire. The first stage is okay in the second loop as well. Just sucks that for a 2-ALL you have to sit through 1-1 every time.

[Ko.oS]

well, irem released super r-type in 1991/92 and it was a total mess - flickering, slow down, etc, so years later they felt the urge to redeem themselves (from a coder's point of view), and stage 1 of rtype III is just there as a superfami show off (rotations, zooming, and all that jazz). konami did a similar thing back in the day - gradius 3 was pretty much a shitstorm, so some time later they came back with axelay to shut their critics up. [/end pretentious history lesson].

RT3 is a bit of a snoozefest, especially upon repeated play, but hey, most console shumps are...


________________________________________________
" I tell you things you already know, so you can say - I really identify with you, so much!"

[BIL]

Well, that it's a tech demo is certainly plausible. It could've still shown off its various graphical effects without being utterly boring, though. Actually, the most egregiously vacant segment (right after the third Gains hits the wall) doesn't involve any special effects whatsoever, just waiting for the end of a long, empty corridor with the odd harmless turret and bit of junk floating past.

Konami, Irem and Compile's console shooter design fared better on the PS1, of all machines. Gradius Gaiden, R-Type Delta and Zanac Neo are all strictly no-nonsense games that use the hardware to embellish the action rather than substitute for a lack of it. Maybe the devs knew no amount of technical wankery would sell 2D shooters on a 3D platform.

[Marc]

It would seem that I'm a minority; as, lack of restart points aside, I much preferred Super to R-Type II.

[third_strike]

The truly broken stuff is in the second loop where getting hit on bosses makes it so you pretty much have to bomb several times due to the undodgable crap from the bosses or is effectively a game over with power style cause you'll start to chaindeath.


I'm more complaining about how this is the only Cave game outside of Futari 1.5 Maniac where the extend is set way too high. At least on 1.5 Maniac for Futari, I guess it'd be reasonable to actually get it though. I can get the first extend on stage 1 if my chain doesn't get broken, but outside of that it's just way too hard to score well enough. I can't even rely on getting high hit count of the stage 2 midboss or something because the laserballs seem randomize. The stage 3 midboss can kill a run easily cause dying to it means normal midbosses on Stage 5 instead of the Ura ones.


It's not necessarily actually broken outside of the second loop bosses(which also applies to Black label Strong and makes that mode not fun either), but it's just a very unrewarding game. I can enjoy Black Label Bomb and Power because it's a rewarding game.

Oh, and if I could get that second extend, a 1-all with Power would mostly be a nonissue.


Another complaint: While the 360 d-pad seems fine for most other games on the system, it just doesn't work well with it for me.

Strange I find mid-bosses harder than bosses in 2nd loop
Well, you could read this too: http://www.cave-stg.com/?p=1969

And

If it's any consolation, DFK chain timing is an asshole. It takes a long time to get a feel for how to switch between normal and boost to keep it from suddenly breaking. Once you get it, it becomes quicker and easier to piece the rest of it together. Unfortunately the timing can be slightly different between 1.5 and BL versions depending on how much you rely on hypers to bridge.

[Obscura]

Grrr... stage 4 DOJ boss first attack...

In savestate practice- dodge it every time
In actual runs- choke and die.

I don't know why I can't man up and get off the fucking bottom for that attack on an actual run, even after telling myself it's the easiest and safest way to deal with it, since the spreads don't cover near as much room a few inches up. I *know* that the bottom is the wrong place to be. But, when I'm actually in the moment, I *always* turn into a coward and run to the bottom, almost instinctively.

[Erppo]

The fact that you need to perfect entire stages to get the second score extend is a legitimate complaint with DFK. If you claim that you DON'T need to perfect entire stages to get it, you are wrong.

It's odd this has gone so long without getting called out since it's pretty much pure BS. The 10 billion required for the extends is really tiny and you can get it for example in the stretch between the start and the midboss of 1-4 if you know anything about how the game works.

A 2-all is literally easier to get than that second score extend. Oh, what's that? You don't believe me because you've memorized the game so hard that you get the second score extend in your sleep? I'VE GOTTEN A 2-ALL WITHOUT GETTING THE SECOND SCORE EXTEND. This was not a challenge to myself. I just played the game, and I got a 2-all before I figured out how to get the second score extend. This should not happen.

Having said that, DFK is still a huge amount of fun. It just has a REALLY unbalanced scoring system.

So you're just making up new definitions for words here. Is Garegga "unbalanced" if you can't get the 20th extend? Why do you even care about any of this if you have cleared the game already? Why should you be entitled free score from doing absolutely nothing? Nothing in this makes any sense.

[Trevor spencer]

Thinking ive activated a bee icon in DOJ just to realize i didnt hold the laser button for long enough

[Zaarock]

laser wheels in ddp dfk. yeah I know, old story.. and I can memorize it eventually.

Just feels a little off compared to the rest of the game & other cave shmups in being something you almost have to memorize to not get hit, instead of pattern recognition and reflexes aiding you especially when in a flow state. particularly evil is the section where it suddenly starts reverse scrolling and there is a huge line of tanks that will snipe you if you don't go inside the rings to shoot them.

[Zengeku3]

Shmup grievances... how about finding out that your copy of Mushihimesama Futari suddenly got itself a huge crack in the disc? I don't even know how that got there. Sucks. - What also sucks is dying way too many times trying to beat Subterranean Animism Lunatic without bombing. I swear, getting through Stage 5 without bombs and without dying an alarming amount of times is difficult. Too bad Stages 1-3 aren't.