Journey - PSN

[moozooh]

Uh, Estebang, the game neither costs more than a decent blu-ray movie does, nor pretends to be DoDonPachi. It elicits certain emotional response that is entertaining and thus worth the money. Do you go slamming movies because they're not interactive enough? Wtf is wrong with you.

[Estebang]

Uh, Estebang, the game neither costs more than a decent blu-ray movie does

On "Value" for "Money" (Hint: it's about time)

Do you go slamming movies because they're not interactive enough?

No, because they're not games.

[moozooh]

(Hint: it's about time)

Hint: it's exactly as long and as replayable as a movie. Probably more replayable since movies I want to watch more than once happen once in a blue moon.

[Skykid]

On "Value" for "Money" (Hint: it's about time)

For Christ's sake...

But don't assume that all I am trying to do here is defend expensive games, because that's only part my intention -- I am also attacking cheap ones. Because for every rubbish review that slams a great game for being too expensive, there's another one praising a shitty one for being too cheap. For what does it matter to us if the latest "indie sensation" only costs three bucks, if all it does is copy ideas that were done much better decades ago, and with much more style and flair? And why should I take time out of my day to play a cheap (in every sense of the word) imitation of something I played decades ago, or recommend such an inferior game to my readers? To give a pat on the back to its amateur designers? Surely that is a job for their mothers and their schoolteachers, not for a critic who has even the slightest amount of respect for himself, and for the time of his readers.

So unbelievably bad.

(Hint: it's about time)

Hint: it's exactly as long and as replayable as a movie. Probably more replayable since movies I want to watch more than once happen once in a blue moon.

I felt compelled to go through it a second time yesterday, and then in the evening I experimented by giving my girlfriend the PS3 pad and telling her to have a go. Since she doesn't play much except ios games and Money Puzzle Exchanger, and has hardly any understanding of how to use a second analog stick to control a camera, I was chancing it. She loved it though, played it from beginning to end with only a few minor hints. She said it was 'beautiful'. That's a word with very subjective value in gaming terms, but she said it in a way that made it sound as though the developer had achieved something significant.

[Estebang]

Hint: it's exactly as long and as replayable as a movie. Probably more replayable since movies I want to watch more than once happen once in a blue moon.

Even in these terms, Cave shmups have it beat by miles, since they're as long as a cartoon episode (if you 1CC) and about a million times more replayable.

So unbelievably bad.

You can't just keep saying these things without explaining them, you know. Furthermore, Journey is a perfect example of what Icy's talking about there--it's a shallow attempt at riding the coattails of classics like Riven and SotC.

This isn't a stab against your girlfriend, but she simply hasn't acquired the necessary experience with the medium required to accurately judge a work against its peers. It's fine if she enjoyed it, but she's inadmissible as evidence for the game's quality. Michael Bay's Transformers probably seems like a masterpiece to sugar-addled kids raised exclusively on Dreamworks CG movies.

[Skykid]

So unbelievably bad.

You can't just keep saying these things without explaining them, you know. Furthermore, Journey is a perfect example of what Icy's talking about there--it's a shallow attempt at riding the coattails of classics like Riven and SotC.

Just look at the composition of the paragraph. It's an absolute headache to read. There's no quicker way to lose your reader than waffling: all those words and roundabout sentences and rarely a glimpse of an underlying point. It's not an essay, it doesn't have the structuring; it's a shambling monologue, and that's not very interesting to read.

He's also completely failed to understand that price points can be relative to the volume of work being purchased. If Journey was £40 I'd have still praised it for what was there, but savagely lambasted it for being ridiculously short. Perceived value in the commercial world is all totally pie-in-the-sky anyway: This DVD film is worth £9 on launch, this DVD game is worth £40. Production values are about the same, but some marketing magic says you pay more for one piece of media produce than the other.
As it stands, I'm still not sure Journey is worth £10 in terms of volume, but as it's a very strong piece of work it's less of an issue than it would be if it was shit.

This isn't a stab against your girlfriend, but she simply hasn't acquired the necessary experience with the medium required to accurately judge a work against its peers. It's fine if she enjoyed it, but she's inadmissible as evidence for the game's quality.

In this case I'd argue the opposite. It's because she's not ingratiated with current gen gaming that it's so successful. That it captured her imagination for 2+ hours, enough that she could really engage with it and get something out of it, is to the game's credit.

If I gave her DOJ she'd be dead with boredom after 30 seconds.

[RNGmaster]

Artgame flamewar? Links to insomniac?

Never change, never change.

[Moniker]

Estebang, honestly what happened to you? I seem to have this memory of a thoughtful and intelligent poster. Now we've got a more cynical version of Skykid with less ability to put together an argument, and over more trivial topics.

I prescribe a course of radical withdrawal from Icycalm, TV Tropes, LPs, and whatever crap cynical gamer website you linked a page or so ago.

Don't you see what your behavior is doing to your family??

[Estebang]

In this case I'd argue the opposite. It's because she's not ingratiated with current gen gaming that it's so successful. That it captured her imagination for 2+ hours, enough that she could really engage with it and get something out of it, is to the game's credit.

The most it says about the game is that it's playable--which as I've already explained, doesn't necessarily make a game good. Is Anna Karenina any less of a great novel if most people aren't able to adequately appreciate it, let alone finish it?

He's also completely failed to understand that price points can be relative to the volume of work being purchased.

Crazy to read this on Shmups, where some of us will gladly plonk down hundreds of dollars for a game that most people think only lasts 20 minutes.

I've seen myself as growing only more intellectual in the past couple years. If you feel otherwise, well, tough. You don't have to agree with me, no matter how hard I try to make you.

Also, when did I ever link to TV Tropes or Let's Play videos? I stay the hell away from both those things.

[Moniker]

Also, when did I ever link to TV Tropes or Let's Play videos? I stay the hell away from both those things.

An unfair inference. My mistake.

[moozooh]

Even in these terms, Cave shmups have it beat by miles

Cave shmups are priced two fucking orders of magnitude higher on release. How many have you bought thus far?

[CIT]

Estebang you need to chill the fuck out. It's OK not to like Journey, but it's not OK to hijack a thread and attack everyone you perceive as having bad taste with sophomoric intellectualizations.

And before you quote icycalm again you may want to give this aphorism by his favorite philosopher a thought or two:

[quote="Friedrich Nietzsche in "Human, All Too Human""]Philosophical novices:
If we have just partaken of a philosopher's wisdom, we go through the streets feeling as if we had been transformed and had become great men; for we encounter only people who do not know this wisdom, and thus we have to deliver a new, unheard-of judgment about everything; because we have acknowledged a book of laws, we also think we now have to act like judges.[/quote]

[Skykid]

Now we've got a more cynical version of Skykid with less ability to put together an argument

I actually appreciate that.

Crazy to read this on Shmups, where some of us will gladly plonk down hundreds of dollars for a game that most people think only lasts 20 minutes.

You're placing collector spending in the same bracket as retail?
Some of the most dire games imaginable are some of the most valuable, and it's got nothing to do with quality: the two markets can't be rightly compared.

I've seen myself as growing only more intellectual in the past couple years.

Funny, you're not the first delusional person to graduate from the school of Insomnia. If you have any intellect at all, you've failed to demonstrate it by repeatedly lodging paper thin arguments at a piece of work you clearly don't understand the value of.

[mesh control]

I've seen myself as growing only more intellectual in the past couple years.

Funny, you're not the first delusional person to graduate from the school of Insomnia. If you have any intellect at all, you've failed to demonstrate it by repeatedly lodging paper thin arguments at a piece of work you clearly don't understand the value of.

lolz

[CMoon]

I know I've tried through Tacos and other little hints to suggest at what my real complaint is, and yes, sorry they are aimed at you Estebang. If you don't think this is a game, or if you think it is a rotten game, that's cool. I'm glad there are people out there with opinions, but where this could have been a nice little thread about Journey that undoubtedly would have fallen back to the third page or so, it's turned into you waving your cock around and sniping at anyone who likes the game. Maybe if you don't like it (just like I don't care for FPS games), you should just clearly state your opinion, then let us dummies talk about this non-game we aren't smart enough to realize is a heap of trash. Of course, to your credit, a lot of people took the bait.

I just finished Journey. It was a nice little experience. I don't know whether the ending is real or not, and honestly the ambiguous ending is starting to become too cliched. I'd have been thrilled with the non-happy ending when the vision of the mountain disappears, but the game suggests that's the real ending anyway. Like a lot of people, it felt a wee-too-short for $15, but it was a great experience I'm glad has come out of video gaming.

[Udderdude]

I think his whole point now is trying to convince everyone that there are better things to be doing with your time than arguing on the internet .. I mean, uh, "experiencing" Journey.

[Skykid]

I know I've tried through Tacos and other little hints to suggest at what my real complaint is, and yes, sorry they are aimed at you Estebang. If you don't think this is a game, or if you think it is a rotten game, that's cool. I'm glad there are people out there with opinions, but where this could have been a nice little thread about Journey that undoubtedly would have fallen back to the third page or so, it's turned into you waving your cock around and sniping at anyone who likes the game. Maybe if you don't like it (just like I don't care for FPS games), you should just clearly state your opinion, then let us dummies talk about this non-game we aren't smart enough to realize is a heap of trash. Of course, to your credit, a lot of people took the bait.

I don't think it's bait cos I don't think he's a troll. I just think Estebang has very narrow parameters when it comes to gaming, and a large ego when it comes to arguing.

He clearly likes a game to be within a certain stereotype, requiring memory, skill and challenge. Based on his arguments, anything outside of these parameters can't possibly qualify as a 'game' at all. Udderdude mentioned in the IGF thread that Flower is no different to a new-age waterfall sound CD, and that's probably a correct appraisal, since the developer has made a concerted effort to produce a relaxing experience that doesn't necessarily relate to conventional gaming rules.

And I don't see anything wrong with that. If a game can have the same calming effect on someone as a waterfall CD, then it's achieved something new for the medium, even if it's not hugely pioneering in terms of complexity. Thatgamecompany is clearly an idea factory with specific ideologies about producing software outside of the usual mould. That won't appeal to people who can't get their head out of thirty-years of Mario, Street Fighter and Dodonpachi, but it's nothing more than harmless experimentation that happens to be enjoyable and successful. If Journey really was a completely vapid, worthless investment of time, most people here would have called its number instantly.

I don't really care whether or not a game requires twitch reflexes, edge-of-your-seat accuracy or goes for all out, laid-back pipe smoking euphoria: as long as it's fun to play. And to Journey's credit, I'm not an advocate of current-gen stuff in general; so it was nice to find something that provided an cerebral engagement in an unconventional way. Cos let's face it, in most FPS's your brain just switches off after you've slain your twentieth Afghan.

[TLB]

The more complex a game, the better it has potential to be. The tighter/better the mechanics and design, the better a game is. There's not really much argument to that...

[Skykid]

The more complex a game, the better it has potential to be. The tighter/better the mechanics and design, the better a game is. There's not really much argument to that...

This is the weirdest thing!

Siren2011

Estebang

TLB

All from the church of Insomnia, all crowing the same nonsense about complexity automatically equalling depth. That guy's really done a number on you chaps eh?

[TLB]

I don't frequent Insomnia, nor is it my church. Good try ;)

This doesn't even necessarily only apply to games. Think about how it applies to movies and you'll realize...

[TLB]

All from the church of Insomnia, all crowing the same nonsense about complexity automatically equalling depth.

Actually, this part outright offends me. Did you read my post?

The more complex a game, the better it has potential to be. The tighter/better the mechanics and design, the better a game is. There's not really much argument to that...

It has potential to be better. The fuck. :(

I don't frequent Insomnia, nor is it my church. Good try ;)

This doesn't even necessarily only apply to games. Think about how it applies to movies and you'll realize...

[Skykid]

Actually, this part straight-up offends me. Did you read my post?

Yep, I even replied to it.

Don't worry about it mate, plenty of people who studied under Icycalm automatically correlate complexity with, as you said, the potential for a better game.

Shigeru Miyamoto wants a word.

[moozooh]

Funny, I actually always considered Myamoto's games boring and straightforward. For instance, the only Mario game that still worked for me by the time I was ten* was Yoshi's Island which was an order of magnitude more complex than SMW; I actually enjoyed it enough to play to the end with 100% completion percentage. I beat SMB to fill the quota when I was already 20, the rest didn't interest me for more than an hour.

* When I was a little kid deprived of games, everything worked to an extent, even NES TMNT (the sidescroller).

[TLB]

I don't eat the cock of the calm. If you're referring to the one time I mentioned icy to Estebang, it was because I was clearly trying to defuse the fucking situation before it gained momentum.

If it makes you feel more comfortable to just write me off as some kind of euthanasia-loving Nazi, then that's what you're going to do, no matter what I say. You will only listen to people who it makes you feel comfortable to listen to. Just like any other human.

You're wrong, btw. Think about movies. I've seen you ranting about movies. You think I didn't pay attention? If you continue to disagree without actually going back and looking at what you've written (because it seems to be too difficult for you to just mentally analyze your beliefs at this level), then just hear what moozooh has to say. I agree with him.

Funny, I actually always considered Myamoto's games boring and straightforward. For instance, the only Mario game that still worked for me by the time I was ten* was Yoshi's Island; I actually enjoyed it enough to play to the end. I beat SMB to fill the quota, the rest didn't interest me for more than an hour.

* When I was a little kid deprived of games, everything worked to an extent, even NES TMNT (the sidescroller).

[Skykid]

then just hear what moozooh has to say. I agree with him.

I did.

And I don't.

[TLB]

OK, dude. I guess that's just the way it is :P

Tell everyone at the Church of Wife that I said hi ^_~

[Siren2011]

Shigeru Miyamoto wants a word.

Of course he does. He is a mediocre game designer, so naturally he would be just as puzzled as you are by this claim.

Don't worry about it mate, plenty of people who studied under Icycalm automatically correlate complexity with, as you said, the potential for a better game.

I feel really sorry for you, man. Really, I do. How anyone can be so tunnel-visioned is an astounding sight to behold. It's gotten on my nerves for quite some time now, but I had to say something now because you categorized me as a thoughtless cultist.

To believe that depth in games could come from anywhere but complexity, is like believing that the ingredients for excellent stir fry lie "beyond" mere fresh vegetables, a frying pan and heat, teriyaki and soy sauces, and meat. Dicking around a wasteland near aimlessly watching the artfaggy clouds shade up the artfaggy ground is not complexity; it is a recipe for human inertia. At best, it's bare bones what should be included in a game...while removing meaningful mechanics that compel the more intelligent gamers out there to keep playing until the end.

Let me just get this out of the way, since subhumans love taking things out of proportions and mincing words.

Icycalm can be a GIGANTIC ASSHOLE. Even the simplest of his mistakes (in his Ketsui review, he praises the simplicity of the scoring system, which clearly it is far more intricate than he gives it credit for. And no, Icy, I will NOT provide "proof" of this since actually sitting down to play the game will give you that.) he refuses to acknowledge. I do not side with him 100% like some braindead moron. To say I do is incredibly insulting. That said, there is so much to learn from him about game theory that anyone who claims otherwise immediately forfeits the right to be taken seriously. ESPECIALLY when they knock him, then parade around forums using his theories as if they were the ones who came up with them.

I'm not part of any cult. Neither is Estebang. We just are naturally attracted to truth.

You will only listen to people who it makes you feel comfortable to listen to. Just like any other human.

While I am already defending myself, I would like to add that I love conversing with people who have opinions that trump my own, because I only have something to benefit from it. I can think of 3 occasions in this forum where I have changed my views on issues. With Skykid, I STILL have yet to see any glimmer of such a transformation. He is always making excuses to avoid being in the wrong. (Does anyone care to prove me wrong on this? Go ahead, hit "search" like a maniac. I dare you.) It's the most off-putting thing in the world, even though I like some things about him. (Tastes in anime, etc.)

Also, this.

Funny, I actually always considered Myamoto's games boring and straightforward. For instance, the only Mario game that still worked for me by the time I was ten* was Yoshi's Island; I actually enjoyed it enough to play to the end. I beat SMB to fill the quota, the rest didn't interest me for more than an hour.

* When I was a little kid deprived of games, everything worked to an extent, even NES TMNT (the sidescroller).

See? How hard is this to understand that Mario is for children?

If anyone STILL thinks I am an Insomnia cultist, then just know that it makes you look desperate when you're losing an argument.

[Skykid]

With Skykid, I STILL have yet to see any glimmer of such a transformation. He is always making excuses to avoid being in the wrong.

Newsflash: that's because I'm right.

Generally speaking there have been multiple occasions where I've taken people's views on board, returned to or stuck it out with something and been humble enough to come back with a hands up view. Most obvious examples probably being Inception, which I enjoyed despite its gaffes, and Castlevania: LOS, which I went back to on Strider's recommendation and played in its entirety just so I could reasonably argue its flaws. It wasn't a great game, but it was better than its first two hours made it seem.

As for you son, stop snapping. It wasn't an attack on you in the first place, it just so happens that you also consider Icycalm to not be an idiot and have used the complexity argument before. Unfortunately if I didn't include you in the list it would have been a very short list.

So, while I actually always liked you pretty much as a poster, I do need to make sure you know the following, for your own sake if nothing else:

See? How hard is this to understand that Mario is for children?

You're wrong.

[Shigeru Miyamoto] is a mediocre game designer

I'm not part of any cult. Neither is Estebang. We just are naturally attracted to truth.

Sure who isn't? Unfortunately your truth is incorrect.

I feel really sorry for you, man. Really, I do. How anyone can be so tunnel-visioned is an astounding sight to behold.

I'll just leave this here:

[Shigeru Miyamoto] is a mediocre game designer

[moozooh]

To believe that depth in games could come from anywhere but complexity, is like believing that the ingredients for excellent stir fry lie "beyond" mere fresh vegetables, a frying pan and heat, teriyaki and soy sauces, and meat.

It depends on what you consider to be depth. For instance, Tetris is not a complex game to grasp; all the rules and the scoring system are intuitively understood within the first 15 minutes of play (except in case with mods like TGM, where it needs a couple written sentences to be perfectly clear). Tetris's longevity comes from its difficulty that challenges your spatial thinking, hand-eye coordination and reaction time. That may not be depth by your definition, but the fact that nowadays Tetris, like shmups, is more likely to be loved by adults than it is by kids shows what's what.

With regards to Miyamoto and his games, just ask yourself how much time you would spend on them nowadays, and why.

[Ruldra]

With regards to Miyamoto and his games, just ask yourself how much time you would spend on them nowadays, and why.

I see no problem replaying Super Mario World or SMB3 nowadays. They're awesome games and great fun.

The more complex a game, the better it has potential to be.

Too much complexity makes the game too complicated to play and turn most people away. Just look at Dwarf Fortress or DOTA.