The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[Obscura]

/feeling like more of a moron for letting it happen) and less annoying.

To me, these two things seem to contradict. I don't get irritated when I die on something I've never seen before; I get irritated when I die on something I've seen tons of times before, especially if it's something I usually get past no problem, and really especially if it's doing something I know better than to do (for instance, if I try something, see it doesn't work, make a note that "nope, that's not good!", and then for some reason brainfart and do it again with the same results).

[Sapz]

Well, of course it's still irritating to have your brain turn off and do the same stupid thing a few times in a row. However, I think this probably happens at all levels of play (at things of varying difficulties), but the more experience you have, the better you can analyze what's gone badly, so failure becomes more of a learning experience rather than just seeming like frustrating bad luck.

[Deca]

It's a matter of understanding your own abilities, I generally get frustrated when I'm killed by something that I feel I am not equipped to deal with. It's hard to deal with the feeling that you might simply not be able to do it. However, at this point I've done a fair amount of things that I once felt that way about. I just try to think back to years ago when I quit playing DDP the first time after seeing st5 and being so overwhelmed that I lost all motivation to even attempt it.

[Hagane]

I don't get irritated when I die on something I've never seen before; I get irritated when I die on something I've seen tons of times before, especially if it's something I usually get past no problem

This happens to me sooo many times. I know most of the second loop of Sengoku Blade like the palm of my hand and I still fuck up at stupid things. It's especially frustrating when I successfully get through at a tough spot only to space out and eat a harmless bullet that was about to go offscreen. Makes me want to crush my controller on the ground. For each decent run I get 10 that are like that.

[Marc]

Gah, FUCK Futari BL ST3 boss. I've put some practice in and would say that in training I can NMNB the thing maybe 4 of every 5 attempts, but I've just choked completely during score attack and died three times in quick succession. It's actually the first pattern that gives me most trouble too, the initial purple spray. I normally sit above P2's first bomb counter and tap-dodge through it, but that obviously isn't as foolproof as I thought. Still I've hit midway through ST4 a few times, I will clear this fucker yet, and after that, I'd say Maniac would be my next target. It's not as hard as I expected, and in some weird way, the busier screen seems to focus my attention more.

Edited to say the same thing just happened, except I cleared the boss on my last life, with no bombs in stock, then proceeded to smash ST4 straight through to the boss and broke my score. Fuck yeah I'm pleased.

[Eaglet]

Soooo fuckin' close to the 1CC and letter score.
Was just about to destroy Glow Squids main body when he pulled out (of his ass) both of the fast spread guns that fucked me in the ass.
It was literally the shrapnel of my last life killed the main body.

Oh well, at least i know 1MNBing BH2 ain't that hard now.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I'm pretty much at the stage where I could 1cc under defeat now. You'd still need to get to stage 5 with 2 lives though and that's pretty unlikely on 95% of runs. Stage 4 is still a complete cockmuncher but I know that level upside down and back-to-front so that's not going to change. Stage 5 is definitely easier and would be comfortable with 2 lives.

Definitely not going to get much better though. Lives still get lost in random spots. Clearing it basically comes down to getting lucky and avoiding the stupid mistakes and doing a decent run in the process.

[mesh control]

lucky

Please explain where the luck comes into play?

[DrTrouserPlank]

lucky

Please explain where the luck comes into play?

The luck comes into play because you cannot complete the game on every run, every time. No-one can clear the game 100% of the time; that is to master it and then never fail on a single run ever again. Indeed the reality is that you will fail often but even leaving that aside there are factors at play which combined with skill determine the result of a run. That factor is luck.

You can always argue that every movement is a result of an input you make and therefore can't be luck as such, but luck occurs in many forms. The pattern where you fuck up your inputs and nudge a bullet is just as much luck as the pattern where you also fuck up what you were trying to do but somehow still end up avoiding everything. Luck is a randomised factor over which you have no control. You have no control over whether the bad input will cost you a life. Once you have failed to execute what you intended, it's luck as to whether there is a bullet in the path of your ship at that moment.

[Illyrian]

I can clear Imperishible Night on easy 100% of the time

[TLB]

lucky

Please explain where the luck comes into play?

The luck comes into play because you cannot complete the game on every run, every time. No-one can clear the game 100% of the time; that is to master it and then never fail on a single run ever again. Indeed the reality is that you will fail often but even leaving that aside there are factors at play which combined with skill determine the result of a run. That factor is luck.

You can always argue that every movement is a result of an input you make and therefore can't be luck as such, but luck occurs in many forms. The pattern where you fuck up your inputs and nudge a bullet is just as much luck as the pattern where you also fuck up what you were trying to do but somehow still end up avoiding everything. Luck is a randomised factor over which you have no control. You have no control over whether the bad input will cost you a life. Once you have failed to execute what you intended, it's luck as to whether there is a bullet in the path of your ship at that moment.

When is anyone actually going to try to address the problem he's describing instead of saying "HURRRR ITZ NAT LUKK!!!!!!!" ??? I've been wondering this since the very first time I saw him post this luck stuff. I didn't want to believe...

[Obscura]

Crimzon Clover, you sure were fun until your TLB.

I wish I'd have known 50 hours ago what was waiting at the end of the game, so I wouldn't have wasted my fucking time. After hours of practice, I can safely say that I can never beat this guy, no matter how much I practice, no matter how perfect the run up to him is.

[TheSoundofRed]

The luck comes into play because you cannot complete the game on every run, every time. No-one can clear the game 100% of the time; that is to master it and then never fail on a single run ever again. Indeed the reality is that you will fail often but even leaving that aside there are factors at play which combined with skill determine the result of a run. That factor is luck

You pretty much mock all skilled players by continuing to declare that 1CCing any game is dictated by pure chance. A skilled player reduces the amount of "luck" needed to clear any given game by memorizing the patterns and enemy movements within that game. You do realize that many patterns within a STG vary in difficulty depending on where your character is in relation to the enemy on screen? These sort of smart assessments mitigate this factor of "luck" and ensure that the player will not die during a run.

Now I would totally agree with you if you were speaking about Xevious, or Missile Command, or any other old arcade classic that relied on randomly selected enemy placement. But in the games you are referring to, enemy patterns and movements are scripted and constant between playthroughs, which allow you as a player to control how the enemy attacks you with each run. Does that make sense?

I totally understand your mindset, but attributing factors like "luck" into your potential for success is irresponsible.

[Bee Cool]

I wish more ports had scanline options. But luckily I have found a very cheap way to fix this, I'm simply growing out my bangs so that I not only have scanlines while playing shmups, but I will have constant scanlines in real life.

[Bananamatic]

I wish more ports had scanline options. But luckily I have found a very cheap way to fix this, I'm simply growing out my bangs so that I not only have scanlines while playing shmups, but I will have constant scanlines in real life.

[dunpeal2064]

Dr TP, why do you think these games should be able to be taken down every single credit at some point?

I mean, even if someone can only clear it 1 in 10 times, what does that matter? You only need to get one good run. Its not like we do scores by averages, and you need 3 out of 5 runs averaged to get a score.

Even Promethius admits it took him hundreds of credits, once he had already practiced the shit out of Dodonpachi, to get a score like he did.

Sure, some people may be able to take down Mushihimesama Futari 1.5 Original fairly consistently, but to those players (Sapz, Icarus, Gus, etc), Futari 1.5 Original is not difficult. its just a difference in skill level. The games that they find difficult, I'm sure they don't clear every single credit

[NzzpNzzp]

When is anyone actually going to try to address the problem he's describing instead of saying "HURRRR ITZ NAT LUKK!!!!!!!" ??? I've been wondering this since the very first time I saw him post this luck stuff. I didn't want to believe...

Pretty certain we've already pointed out that you don't need luck with sufficient skill and he just ignored it.

[TLB]

When is anyone actually going to try to address the problem he's describing instead of saying "HURRRR ITZ NAT LUKK!!!!!!!" ??? I've been wondering this since the very first time I saw him post this luck stuff. I didn't want to believe...

Pretty certain we've already pointed out that you don't need luck with sufficient skill and he just ignored it.

He's clearly saying that his deficiency lies elsewhere. Does no one recognize just what his problem is? It's exaggerated, to be sure, but most players here suffer from similar "luck-based" problems...

[NTSC-J]

When is anyone actually going to try to address the problem he's describing instead of saying "HURRRR ITZ NAT LUKK!!!!!!!" ??? I've been wondering this since the very first time I saw him post this luck stuff. I didn't want to believe...

Pretty certain we've already pointed out that you don't need luck with sufficient skill and he just ignored it.

He's clearly saying that his deficiency lies elsewhere. Does no one recognize just what his problem is? It's exaggerated, to be sure, but most players here suffer from similar "luck-based" problems...

Babe Ruth didn't hit a homerun every time he swung the bat.
Tom Brady doesn't throw a touchdown every time he throws the ball.
Mike Tyson didn't knock someone out every time he threw a punch.

No one addresses it because it's a stupid point. Luck plays some part in all games or sports, but it doesn't mean someone can't be proficient at something given enough practice. If shmups involved a blindfold, then yes, I would say clearing a game would take a great deal of luck.

[TLB]

Pretty certain we've already pointed out that you don't need luck with sufficient skill and he just ignored it.

He's clearly saying that his deficiency lies elsewhere. Does no one recognize just what his problem is? It's exaggerated, to be sure, but most players here suffer from similar "luck-based" problems...

Babe Ruth didn't hit a homerun every time he swung the bat.
Tom Brady doesn't throw a touchdown every time he throws the ball.
Mike Tyson didn't knock someone out every time he threw a punch.

No one addresses it because it's a stupid point. Luck plays some part in all games or sports, but it doesn't mean someone can't be proficient at something given enough practice. If shmups involved a blindfold, then yes, I would say clearing a game would take a great deal of luck.

OK, not working. I'll be more direct.

It's not luck that he's actually on about. What he's saying is that he's completely inconsistent and shit. He doesn't know what to do to be more consistent (and shit; this is important that it's not just consistency, afaict), and just saying "l2p and get better" isn't the answer anyone needs to actually improve. I don't even have time to finish this post. Fuck.

[NzzpNzzp]

Well I don't have any ways to improve consistency other than practice, and that's clearly not working for him, so don't look at me.

[Icarus]

OK, not working. I'll be more direct.
It's not luck that he's actually on about. What he's saying is that he's completely inconsistent and shit. He doesn't know what to do to be more consistent (and shit; this is important that it's not just consistency, afaict), and just saying "l2p and get better" isn't the answer anyone needs to actually improve. I don't even have time to finish this post. Fuck.

Everyone has been trying to give DTP some advice for ages now, and typically it goes ignored. The constant whining is getting tiresome now.

[Bananamatic]

I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed.

-Michael Jordan

[Bee Cool]

That only works for Hori's, and those scanlines are too thick as well. Bangs are the way to go imo.

[J_Taishu]

Well I don't have any ways to improve consistency other than practice, and that's clearly not working for him, so don't look at me.

It's a question of whether or not you're able to realize why you started dying on a part that you used to consistently get through before. You can practice all you want, but unless you know why you were hit at a certain point you're not going to improve. This can be frustrating when you simply didn't see the bullet that shot you down.

[TLB]

Well I don't have any ways to improve consistency other than practice, and that's clearly not working for him, so don't look at me.

It's a question of whether or not you're able to realize why you started dying on a part that you used to consistently get through before. You can practice all you want, but unless you know why you were hit at a certain point you're not going to improve. This can be frustrating when you simply didn't see the bullet that shot you down.

No, it's a matter of being able to focus, keep up with the game mentally, and not fall behind playing. Those deaths mostly happen because you aren't expecting something to kill you...If you are waiting for things to come on-screen, you're ahead of the game and usually 0% likely to be dead. If you have lost track of [killing] the last 2-10 enemies on the screen, you are a lot more likely to die. This is why it is advantageous for you to have "control" over every enemy on the screen. If you know exactly what to expect from each situation, you will have no trouble coming through it. Some people get nervous or are slightly foggy on exactly what to expect, often without even noticing it (or overplaying it and increasing its significance in the player's mind while playing).

Clear your fuckin' head.

[O. Van Bruce]

Imma raging at Ketsui...

I mean... my teeth are been made powder right now. That's the amount of pressure I have to sustain when i'm trying to get [5] boxes, even in the first stage...

[matrigs]

Crimzon Clover, you sure were fun until your TLB.

I wish I'd have known 50 hours ago what was waiting at the end of the game, so I wouldn't have wasted my fucking time. After hours of practice, I can safely say that I can never beat this guy, no matter how much I practice, no matter how perfect the run up to him is.

that was exactly my thought with mushihimesama arrange.

after the 5th boss died i started jumping around in my room and went for my camera to make a picture of the score screen. right afterwards i got instantly butt raped by the tlb and never touched arrange agan.

[O. Van Bruce]

Crimzon Clover, you sure were fun until your TLB.

I wish I'd have known 50 hours ago what was waiting at the end of the game, so I wouldn't have wasted my fucking time. After hours of practice, I can safely say that I can never beat this guy, no matter how much I practice, no matter how perfect the run up to him is.

Oh, come on! You should just keep your cool, memorize the tricks of the TLB (which you can get on almost any replay on youtube) and bomb in some patterns. Once you get past the first pahse of the TLB, the second phase is a piece of cake.

[Obscura]

Crimzon Clover, you sure were fun until your TLB.

I wish I'd have known 50 hours ago what was waiting at the end of the game, so I wouldn't have wasted my fucking time. After hours of practice, I can safely say that I can never beat this guy, no matter how much I practice, no matter how perfect the run up to him is.

Oh, come on! You should just keep your cool, memorize the tricks of the TLB (which you can get on almost any replay on youtube) and bomb in some patterns. Once you get past the first pahse of the TLB, the second phase is a piece of cake.

It's those fucking purple balls. Every time he busts that out, I lose two or three lives, even after about 3 hours of practicing the "stage 5 boss" selection from the stage select.

Also, I've seen the second TLB on youtube, and it certainly doesn't *look* like a piece of cake...